Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

On 3/16/2019 at 10:06 AM, Spock said:

You know I love you LAmad, but I can’t continue discussing this with you if you continue to ignore my words. Why should I write them? 

Notice what you said...do you agree that all the seals precede the trumpets?  This tells me you did not read my timeline. I even put it in order going down. You should know this answer by looking at my timeline. You should also know where I put the opening of the trumpets 1-4 in my timeline (hint, before midpoint, AFTER THE RAPTURE.)

And lastly, I am not putting the church in the wrath experiencing the trumpets. Just because I see the rapture in 12:5 does not mean I am putting them in the wrath. I told you, I see chapters 11-14 as time out chapters, interludes, to explain the characters. I don’t care if the trumpets are opened in chapters 8 and 9 which I know comes before chapter 12.  Remember what I think.....time out chapters only, not meant to follow a chronology except from within its chapter. 

I wont repeat this ever again. 

Spock, when your timeline varies so drastically from what is written, It is not so easy to follow.

Here it is, with my comments:

Seals 1-4 maybe already opened in past; if not in past immediately after peace treaty, start of week  You have the seals either in the past or inside the week - so you really don't know. 

Seals 5 and 6 released around the 3 year mark So where does YOUR week start?  You have a choice of seal 1, seal 2, seal 3, seal 5, etc. I am guessing you don't know, but are only proposing. 

Rapture at 6th seal  I thought your rapture was in chapter 12! This is after all the trumpets!  What you are suggesting is of course impossible, because the trumpets are what is inside the book, and the book cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened. 

Trumpets 1-4 released What? Before the 7th seal? Please, picture these seals as sealing the book! 

Midpoint....3.5 years...AOD, 2 witnesses, 2 beasts rise up Like at the 5th trumpet? You do realize that the first 6 trumpets are outside of chapters 11 through 13 so INSIDE John's chronological chapters according to you. 

5th trumpet You have never answered any questions I have asked about what you do with Daniel 9:27 together with what Jesus said about those people fleeing when they see the abomination. Please tell me what you do with these verses.

Two witnesses die and 6th trumpet/7th trumpet So will you then suppose that verse 11:3 is 42 months after verse 2, that 11:4 is 1260 days after 11:3, that 12:7 is 1260 days after 12:6? In other words, in the other 4 mentions of the 3.5 year time frame, do you assume all the rest that the countdown just STARTS at the verse of mention, and they all go to the end of the week, as in chapter 16? Why would you consider one out of five different than the other 4? 

7 bowls At least we agree on this one point!

Return of Jesus  Hallelujah! Do you consider chapter 19 as AFTER chapter 16 in timing?

45 days of transitioning Thank God you consider this as time AFTER the week and not inside the week! 

Start of MK Another agreement! 

It seems, Spock, you still have many areas in which you wonder. 

Can you explain how you get the 6th seal in chapter 12? 

All this seems to me to be only because you insist the rapture is found in the words of chapter 12. You know I don't.

Reasons why I disagree with your take on chapters 11, 12, and 13:

I see the abomination event that divides the week and stops the daily sacrifices at the 7th vial. Then I see those fleeing because they SAW that abomination event in 12:6. That to me is chronology chapter to chapter. 

I understand God introducing John to the dragon first, before the Beast, so John will understand it is the Dragon IN the Beast in chapter 13.  That to me is chronology chapter to chapter.  

I see God showing John what the Beast and False Prophet will do later in the week, in the parenthesis of most of chapter 13. Then I see God giving His warning not to take the mark in chapter 14. That is one reason why I think verses 13:6 on is written as a parenthesis. Chapter 14 is still a midpoint chapter. 

In chapter 12, the war in heaven: I see the 7th trumpet as the signal for Michael to go to war. That is chronology chapter to chapter. 

I see chapter 12, just as Jesus said to me, a chapter about the Dragon, mentioned 32 times. In other words, NOT ABOUT the rapture.  How you see a rapture there alludes me.  It is a midpoint chapter showing what the dragon will do after the midpoint abomination. 

In short, your theory amazes me. 

[Marilyn C]

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:30 PM, Spock said:

 

Seals 1-4 maybe already opened in past; if not in past immediately after peace treaty, start of week

 

Hi Spock,

I actually did read your timeline and you said the 4 Seals could be after the Peace Treaty. Now even if you think before the Peace Treaty then you would still have to include the horror of a quarter of the world`s population dying of the sword, hunger, death or beasts. And that will take quite a while and need a very powerful group to do that. Then we have `Hell following` (Rev. 6: 8) revealing the Hell is opening up to go on the earth. Then we have the martyrs, and all this in the first part of the tribulation, which that view (you are trying) says there is Peace and safety.

These events do not suggest to me `Peace and Safety.`

Any comments? Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

I actually did read your timeline and you said the 4 Seals could be after the Peace Treaty. Now even if you think before the Peace Treaty then you would still have to include the horror of a quarter of the world`s population dying of the sword, hunger, death or beasts. And that will take quite a while and need a very powerful group to do that. Then we have `Hell following` (Rev. 6: ? revealing the Hell is opening up to go on the earth. Then we have the martyrs, and all this in the first part of the tribulation, which that view (you are trying) says there is Peace and safety.

These events do not suggest to me `Peace and Safety.`

Any comments? Marilyn.

I have comments but I will wait for Spock.

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

I actually did read your timeline and you said the 4 Seals could be after the Peace Treaty. Now even if you think before the Peace Treaty then you would still have to include the horror of a quarter of the world`s population dying of the sword, hunger, death or beasts. And that will take quite a while and need a very powerful group to do that. Then we have `Hell following` (Rev. 6: ? revealing the Hell is opening up to go on the earth. Then we have the martyrs, and all this in the first part of the tribulation, which that view (you are trying) says there is Peace and safety.

These events do not suggest to me `Peace and Safety.`

Any comments? Marilyn.

What you said is a big reason why I lean toward the interpretation that the 4 horsemen HAVE ALREADY RIDDEN. It seems to work better on several different levels.  Obviously, if the first four seals were released in the first year of the week I suppose you could then have peace after all the killings subsided for the next two years....but again, I do believe the 4 horsemen of Rev 6 can be seen in Zechariah 6.

Lastly, in the second alternative I wonder if it is possible that the four horsemen be released several years before the signing of the peace treaty. In fact, it seems likely then that the peace treaty was a result of all the war and turmoil that brought about The worlds desire for PEACE AND SAFETY.  That way, the first 3 years would be in peace and safety, before the 6th seal is opened and the rapture occurs. Thinking out loud again .

Oh, btw, no where does it say 1/4 of the population were killed like it says 1/3 of the population were killed in the 4th trumpet.  Here is says 1/4 of the LAND was impacted. 

They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and...

Edited March 19, 2019 by Spock

[Marilyn C]

47 minutes ago, Spock said:

What you said is a big reason why I lean toward the interpretation that the 4 horsemen HAVE ALREADY RIDDEN. It seems to work better on several different levels.  Obviously, if the first four seals were released in the first year of the week I suppose you could then have peace after all the killings subsided for the next two years....but again, I do believe the 4 horsemen of Rev 6 can be seen in Zechariah 6.

Lastly, in the second alternative I wonder if it is possible that the four horsemen be released several years before the signing of the peace treaty. In fact, it seems likely then that the peace treaty was a result of all the war and turmoil that brought about The worlds desire for PEACE AND SAFETY.  That way, the first 3 years would be in peace and safety, before the 6th seal is opened and the rapture occurs. Thinking out loud again .

Oh, btw, no where does it say 1/4 of the population were killed like it says 1/3 of the population were killed in the 4th trumpet.  Here is says 1/4 of the LAND was impacted. 

They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and...

Hi Spock,

Oh you aren`t getting away with that bro. `the land impacted!` What! Let`s do a Greek check, `earth,` Gk. word `ge` meaning a region or whole of the globe INCLUDING THE OCCUPANTS. So there you are it is NOT the land is impacted BUT a quarter of the world`s population, (unbelievable) killed by sword, hunger, death and beasts. (Not sure how the land could be affected by sword, hunger, death and beasts. No, don`t tell me. lol)

So back to reality. Yes I also believe that the 3 horsemen/Federations, arose prior to the trib. The 4th one brings on the global leader, (A/C) as Dan. 7: 8 reveals. (the little horn/power) He arises `peaceably and seizes the kingdom by intrigue.` (Dan. 11: 21) That would be by the Peace Treaty.

The world has been clamouring `Peace & Security,` (Safety, same Gk. word) for years and are tired of the wars in the Middle East. Thus when this person is able to broker a Peace deal, then wow, `Peace & Safety` at last. But.....we know that is when sudden destruction comes upon them.

How`s that so far. Marilyn.

[Spock]

7 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Oh you aren`t getting away with that bro. `the land impacted!` What! Let`s do a Greek check, `earth,` Gk. word `ge` meaning a region or whole of the globe INCLUDING THE OCCUPANTS. So there you are it is NOT the land is impacted BUT a quarter of the world`s population, (unbelievable) killed by sword, hunger, death and beasts. (Not sure how the land could be affected by sword, hunger, death and beasts. No, don`t tell me. lol)

So back to reality. Yes I also believe that the 3 horsemen/Federations, arose prior to the trib. The 4th one brings on the global leader, (A/C) as Dan. 7: 8 reveals. (the little horn/power) He arises `peaceably and seizes the kingdom by intrigue.` (Dan. 11: 21) That would be by the Peace Treaty.

The world has been clamouring `Peace & Security,` (Safety, same Gk. word) for years and are tired of the wars in the Middle East. Thus when this person is able to broker a Peace deal, then wow, `Peace & Safety` at last. But.....we know that is when sudden destruction comes upon them.

How`s that so far. Marilyn.

Not too well.....

1. Well, you still havent answered my question.....who named Daniels 70th week .....TRIBULATION?  I don’t believe God did. Is that a Pre Trib concoction?  Lol

2. I don’t see how you can associate Federations with

Red-war

Black-famine

Green- death by War, famine, pestilence and

wild beasts

3. I actually think Lamad’s Explanation that the WHITE horse represents the gospel going out throughout the world hoping to conquer, but not with force (no arrows) better than your white horse association.

4. As to ge=earth per Strongs......I guess one can draw their own conclusion...I choose mine over yours. 

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1. arable land

2. the ground, the earth as a standing place

3. the main land as opposed to the sea or water

4. the earth as a whole

a. the earth as opposed to the heavens

b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals

5. a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

 

i guess you are going to have to do a wee bit better to persuade me on any points you are trying to make, although you should know, I’m still open minded (not set in my ways).

spock

Edited March 19, 2019 by Spock

[iamlamad]

On 3/16/2019 at 7:00 AM, Spock said:

This post of yours really does upset me LAmad.  Because it shows me you NEVER BOTHER to read my posts. 

No where have I ever said the seals, trumpets, and bowls are NOT SEQUENCED, NOWHERE. Yet, this post of yours accuses me of that.

Just like you accuse me of putting the church in God’s wrath when I have never done that. 

For the record, here is my tentative proposed timeline one more time....

Seals 1-4 maybe already opened in past; if not in past immediately after peace treaty, start of week

Seals 5 and 6 released around the 3 year mark

Rapture at 6th seal

Trumpets 1-4 released

Midpoint....3.5 years...AOD, 2 witnesses, 2 beasts rise up

5th trumpet

Two witnesses die and 6th trumpet/7th trumpet

7 bowls

Return of Jesus

45 days of transitioning

Start of MK

By the way, I ALWAYS read your posts. The problem is, what you write is so far from the way I read scriptures - I just can't get my mind to understand. 

[Spock]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

By the way, I ALWAYS read your posts. The problem is, what you write is so far from the way I read scriptures - I just can't get my mind to understand. 

Funny, we actually agree on a lot......except now I’m questioning the timing of the rapture due to my interpretation of Rev 12:5 which I know you vehemently disagree with. Lol

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

 

3. I actually think Lamad’s Explanation that the WHITE horse represents the gospel going out throughout the world hoping to conquer, but not with force (no arrows) better than your white horse association.

 

Hi Spock,

Now before I answer your questions, I would like to point out to you, what I see as a blockage in your thinking. It`s something we all have to be careful of - basing what we read in God`s word on our own `feelings.` You often say `my gut` tells me or doesn`t etc. Or, when we try to interpret God`s word by our imagination.

When we do that we are placing ourselves, our thoughts above God`s, and I know you or I do not want to do that.

God interprets His own word by His word. We look for other scriptures on the topic and learn more of what God is saying. So that`s where the discussion should be, on God`s scriptures revealing something we are not sure of. However when we start to go off into our imagining, then we place ourselves above God and off into error and heresy.

So let us continue to -`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Spock said:

 

1. Well, you still havent answered my question.....who named Daniels 70th week .....TRIBULATION?  

 

Hi Spock,

So let`s discuss scripture with scripture. This is your first question -

1. .who named Daniels 70th week .....TRIBULATION?  

I agree with you that Daniel` 70^th week and the time of tribulation mentioned by Jesus are not the same, though they run concurrent.

Daniel`s 70<sup>th</sup> week goes for 2,520 days, (1,290 days from mid point) when the Temple will be cleansed. (Dan.9: 14 `to anoint the Most Holy` & Dan. 8: 14 `then the sanctuary shall be cleansed) This concerns God`s dealing with the nation of Israel.

The tribulation on the other hand concerns God`s dealing with the nations, and their kingdoms to become the Lord`s kingdoms. (Rev. 11: 15 `The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.` ) The Tribulation will be a month less than Dan`s 70^th week, 2,510 days.

 (Matt. 24: 23, `And if those days had not been shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect`s sake those days will be shortened.` ) Note Israel is God`s elect also, Isa. 45: 4, `For Jacob my servant`s sake and Israel my elect...`)

So where does Jesus tell us of this tribulation? Let`s go to Matthew 24 where the Lord describes the events leading up to the Abomination of Desolation (middle of Trib.) and the what to do after that.

`Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?` (Matt. 24: 3)

`You will hear of wars....nation against nation....kingdom against kingdom,    famine, pestilences & earthquakes in various places....all these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (affliction) and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations....false prophets,  lawlessness...and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world....` (Matt. 24: 6 - 14) Note: that is the good news of Christ`s rule (kingdom rule) through Israel to the nations.

Then we read of the Lord pointing out that there will be an Abomination of desolation in the Holy Place, and this is what Daniel spoke of. (Matt. 24: 15,  Dan. 9: 27) The Lord calls the events after the AOD the Great Tribulation -

`For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, not ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

Finally the Lord reveals the sign of His coming and when that is. Jesus says -

`Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.` (Matt. 24: 29)

Thus we read that the Lord Himself names all the difficulties, the troubles and afflictions, as the tribulation of those times from - the beginning of sorrows, through the AOD and on till He returns in power and great glory with His angelic army. (Matt. 24: 30 & 31)

I will leave it there and answer your other questions later, but giving you time to respond to all this.

Regards, Marilyn.