Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, Spock said:

Funny, we actually agree on a lot......except now I’m questioning the timing of the rapture due to my interpretation of Rev 12:5 which I know you vehemently disagree with. Lol

Spock, there is really only ONE PLACE to go to find the timing of the rapture: that is in 1 Thes. chapter 5. Study it. Ask questions until you understand it. One could also go to 2 thes. 2, but most will not dig deep  enough to get Paul's real meaning. 

In short Paul tells us HIS rapture will come just a moment before God's wrath begins.

Two different people groups get two different results at that moment in time, perhaps a microsecond after those alive and In Christ have risen: those living in Christ will get raptured - caught up to meet Christ in the air and in the cloud.

Those living in darkness will get left behind to face the just-started wrath of God. It will also be the start of the Day of the Lord.  This is Paul's timing. Many try to find the timing of Paul's rapture in the gospels! It is a mistake. 

[iamlamad]

21 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

So let`s discuss scripture with scripture. This is your first question -

1. .who named Daniels 70th week .....TRIBULATION?  

I agree with you that Daniel` 70^th week and the time of tribulation mentioned by Jesus are not the same, though they run concurrent.

Daniel`s 70<sup>th</sup> week goes for 2,520 days, (1,290 days from mid point) when the Temple will be cleansed. (Dan.9: 14 `to anoint the Most Holy` & Dan. 8: 14 `then the sanctuary shall be cleansed) This concerns God`s dealing with the nation of Israel.

The tribulation on the other hand concerns God`s dealing with the nations, and their kingdoms to become the Lord`s kingdoms. (Rev. 11: 15 `The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ.` ) The Tribulation will be a month less than Dan`s 70^th week, 2,510 days.

 (Matt. 24: 23, `And if those days had not been shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect`s sake those days will be shortened.` ) Note Israel is God`s elect also, Isa. 45: 4, `For Jacob my servant`s sake and Israel my elect...`)

So where does Jesus tell us of this tribulation? Let`s go to Matthew 24 where the Lord describes the events leading up to the Abomination of Desolation (middle of Trib.) and the what to do after that.

`Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?` (Matt. 24: 3)

`You will hear of wars....nation against nation....kingdom against kingdom,    famine, pestilences & earthquakes in various places....all these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (affliction) and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations....false prophets,  lawlessness...and this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world....` (Matt. 24: 6 - 14) Note: that is the good news of Christ`s rule (kingdom rule) through Israel to the nations.

Then we read of the Lord pointing out that there will be an Abomination of desolation in the Holy Place, and this is what Daniel spoke of. (Matt. 24: 15,  Dan. 9: 27) The Lord calls the events after the AOD the Great Tribulation -

`For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, not ever shall be.` (Matt. 24: 21)

Finally the Lord reveals the sign of His coming and when that is. Jesus says -

`Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.` (Matt. 24: 29)

Thus we read that the Lord Himself names all the difficulties, the troubles and afflictions, as the tribulation of those times from - the beginning of sorrows, through the AOD and on till He returns in power and great glory with His angelic army. (Matt. 24: 30 & 31)

I will leave it there and answer your other questions later, but giving you time to respond to all this.

Regards, Marilyn. 

My answer is much simpler: "the tribulation" as Jesus put it in verse 29 above is just another term for the time of Jacob's trouble or Daniel's 70th week. 

[Marilyn C]

35 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

My answer is much simpler: "the tribulation" as Jesus put it in verse 29 above is just another term for the time of Jacob's trouble or Daniel's 70th week. 

Hi iamlamad,

Although I agree with you on much, this I disagree with. Can you please show the tribulation days, and also the Dan. 70th days from scripture.? Are they the same from scripture? Did you read my notes, scriptures, and see the difference, on their timing?

As I said, Dan. 70th week is for Israel and concerns their city and holy place. The tribulation runs along side but finishes early, as God said, for the nations need to be dealt with before the Lord then goes into Jerusalem and shows Himself to the people of Israel and then after the living waters flow, the holy place will be cleansed. Different purposes, for different groups there, bro.

Marilyn.

 

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Oh you aren`t getting away with that bro. `the land impacted!` What! Let`s do a Greek check, `earth,` Gk. word `ge` meaning a region or whole of the globe INCLUDING THE OCCUPANTS. So there you are it is NOT the land is impacted BUT a quarter of the world`s population, (unbelievable) killed by sword, hunger, death and beasts. (Not sure how the land could be affected by sword, hunger, death and beasts. No, don`t tell me. lol)

So back to reality. Yes I also believe that the 3 horsemen/Federations, arose prior to the trib. The 4th one brings on the global leader, (A/C) as Dan. 7: 8 reveals. (the little horn/power) He arises `peaceably and seizes the kingdom by intrigue.` (Dan. 11: 21) That would be by the Peace Treaty.

The world has been clamouring `Peace & Security,` (Safety, same Gk. word) for years and are tired of the wars in the Middle East. Thus when this person is able to broker a Peace deal, then wow, `Peace & Safety` at last. But.....we know that is when sudden destruction comes upon them.

How`s that so far. Marilyn.

Marilyn, neither are you going to "get away with that!"  ?  Let's go by what is actually written. In fact, Spock is right there.  Here is the phrase in several translations.

They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

there was given to them authority to kill, (over the fourth part of the land,) with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and by the beasts of the land.

What do we see? They all say basically the same thing. the last one is Young's literal: "over the 4th part of the land."

I like to say it this way to avoid confusion: they - the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider - were LIMITED in their THEATER OF OPERATION to only 1/4 of the earth. These seals are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. They were NOT successful. In fact, we don't know how many were killed, because John does not give us this information.

Consider the 4th seal and Pale horse and rider, and compare with what Jesus said about pestilences. The black plague hit Europe TWICE, each time killing around 1/3 of the people. Would the devil use plagues or pestilences to stop the advance of the gospel? OF COURSE He would!

There are currently "peace and safety" conferences going on this year. It is the current theme of the UN. 

You are mistake about the timing: all these seals were opened as soon as Jesus got the book into His hands - around 32 AD. The devil was trying to stop the advance of the Gospel with the disciples and with Paul. 

 

 

 

 

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlamad,

Although I agree with you on much, this I disagree with. Can you please show the tribulation days, and also the Dan. 70th days from scripture.? Are they the same from scripture? Did you read my notes, scriptures, and see the difference, on their timing?

As I said, Dan. 70th week is for Israel and concerns their city and holy place. The tribulation runs along side but finishes early, as God said, for the nations need to be dealt with before the Lord then goes into Jerusalem and shows Himself to the people of Israel and then after the living waters flow, the holy place will be cleansed. Different purposes, for different groups there, bro.

Marilyn.

 

I don't see your scriptures addressing this directly. We would need scriptures that directly address these things with titles, but these scriptures don't exist that I know of. 

Yes, agreed: Daniel's 70th week IS God majoring on Israel. But while the 70th week is ongoing, so is the Day of the Lord that covers all.  I see things in Revelation that speak to the nations as well as to Israel. For example, when the entire sea turns to blood, that will affect the entire world. 

Did you notice that Jesus said "days" of great tribulation?

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"Those days" of what? It would be "those days" of "great tribulation" from the previous verse.  The WEEK will be 2520 days. The last half of the week  will be 1260 days. It will not change. What gets shorted will be "those days" of GT.  When God pours out the vials of His wrath, to SHORTEN those days, the vials will render the Antichrist's armies helpless. The murders will cease. No one will be out hunting down anyone! The DAYS continue, but they will NOT be days of GT! They will just be days of people huddled in the dark in great pain.

The week will end with the 7th vial, but Jesus will not return on the last day. He WILL raise up the Old Testament saints and the Two witnesses on the last day. But Jesus will remain in heaven until the events of chapters 17 & 18 play out.

 

 

 

 

[Marilyn C]

33 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Marilyn, neither are you going to "get away with that!"  ?  Let's go by what is actually written. In fact, Spock is right there.  Here is the phrase in several translations.

They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.

they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.

Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

there was given to them authority to kill, (over the fourth part of the land,) with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and by the beasts of the land.

What do we see? They all say basically the same thing. the last one is Young's literal: "over the 4th part of the land."

I like to say it this way to avoid confusion: they - the red horse and rider, the black horse and rider, and the pale horse and rider - were LIMITED in their THEATER OF OPERATION to only 1/4 of the earth. These seals are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. They were NOT successful. In fact, we don't know how many were killed, because John does not give us this information.

Consider the 4th seal and Pale horse and rider, and compare with what Jesus said about pestilences. The black plague hit Europe TWICE, each time killing around 1/3 of the people. Would the devil use plagues or pestilences to stop the advance of the gospel? OF COURSE He would!

There are currently "peace and safety" conferences going on this year. It is the current theme of the UN. 

You are mistake about the timing: all these seals were opened as soon as Jesus got the book into His hands - around 32 AD. The devil was trying to stop the advance of the Gospel with the disciples and with Paul. 

 

Hi iamlad,

You are just going off into your imagination there bro, and are not presenting scripture/s to explain your reasoning. God`s word is the basis of our discussion, not history.

Marilyn.

[iamlamad]

Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi iamlad,

You are just going off into your imagination there bro, and are not presenting scripture/s to explain your reasoning. God`s word is the basis of our discussion, not history.

Marilyn.

Sorry, Marilyn, but everything I write comes from scripture.  It is written in plain English that they were limited in their scope or theater of operations to 1/4 of the earth. In other words, the Red horse and rider could start wars in Europe or Africa or the Middle East [still inside their 1/4] but that horse and rider could not start a war in China, outside of that 1/4th. 

Don't doubt me on the timing of these seals. It goes back to the CONTEXT: which is chapters 4 & 5. For example, in chapter 5 John got to see the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down....so around 32 AD. Neither you nor anyone else can find 2000 years hidden in those verses - showing us that the first seal was opened in 32 AD. The first hint we God of a time of waiting is at the 5th seal. So we know from the text that seals 1-5 were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

By the way, I have very little imagination!

Edited March 19, 2019 by iamlamad

[Marilyn C]

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I don't see your scriptures addressing this directly. We would need scriptures that directly address these things with titles, but these scriptures don't exist that I know of. 

Yes, agreed: Daniel's 70th week IS God majoring on Israel. But while the 70th week is ongoing, so is the Day of the Lord that covers all.  I see things in Revelation that speak to the nations as well as to Israel. For example, when the entire sea turns to blood, that will affect the entire world. 

Did you notice that Jesus said "days" of great tribulation?

²² And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

"Those days" of what? It would be "those days" of "great tribulation" from the previous verse.  The WEEK will be 2520 days. The last half of the week  will be 1260 days. It will not change. What gets shorted will be "those days" of GT.  When God pours out the vials of His wrath, to SHORTEN those days, the vials will render the Antichrist's armies helpless. The murders will cease. No one will be out hunting down anyone! The DAYS continue, but they will NOT be days of GT! They will just be days of people huddled in the dark in great pain.

The week will end with the 7th vial, but Jesus will not return on the last day. He WILL raise up the Old Testament saints and the Two witnesses on the last day. But Jesus will remain in heaven until the events of chapters 17 & 18 play out.

 

Hi iamlad,

Again you are throwing out your thoughts and not actually discussing scripture with scripture. You say a scripture then go off into your reasoning of it. That is not `discerning God`s word,` as we are told to do. You are just off in your own imaginings.

Dan. 70th week has an end as Dan. 9: 24 tells us `Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city, to finish...to make an end...to make reconciliation...to bring in...to seal up...and to anoint.` All revealing a specific time to finish!

And as I said the Lord is speaking of the whole context, (as the disciples asked Him) from the beginning of sorrows, thr` the AOD and on to when the Lord returns with His angelic army in power and great glory. (Matt. 24: 8, 30 & 31)

Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

27 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, Marilyn, but everything I write comes from scripture.  It is written in plain English that they were limited in their scope or theater of operations to 1/4 of the earth. In other words, the Red horse and rider could start wars in Europe or Africa or the Middle East [still inside their 1/4] but that horse and rider could not start a war in China, outside of that 1/4th. 

Don't doubt me on the timing of these seals. It goes back to the CONTEXT: which is chapters 4 & 5. For example, in chapter 5 John got to see the moment Jesus ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down....so around 32 AD. Neither you nor anyone else can find 2000 years hidden in those verses - showing us that the first seal was opened in 32 AD. The first hint we God of a time of waiting is at the 5th seal. So we know from the text that seals 1-5 were opened as soon as Jesus ascended.

By the way, I have very little imagination!

Hi iamlamad,

There is a difference from talking about a scripture, which you do from your own ideas, and talking about a scripture with other scriptures, so that God`s word interprets His own word. You are doing the interpreting and not listening to God`s interpretation from His very own mouth, (His Word, other scriptures.

Marilyn,

[Spock]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Now before I answer your questions, I would like to point out to you, what I see as a blockage in your thinking. It`s something we all have to be careful of - basing what we read in God`s word on our own `feelings.` You often say `my gut` tells me or doesn`t etc. Or, when we try to interpret God`s word by our imagination.

When we do that we are placing ourselves, our thoughts above God`s, and I know you or I do not want to do that.

God interprets His own word by His word. We look for other scriptures on the topic and learn more of what God is saying. So that`s where the discussion should be, on God`s scriptures revealing something we are not sure of. However when we start to go off into our imagining, then we place ourselves above God and off into error and heresy.

So let us continue to -`Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.` (2 Tim. 2: 15)

Marilyn.

I like to think when I say “my gut” is telling me......that it really is the HS prompting me....

im being LED by the HS, Marilyn......

got it! ?