Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[Spock]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

The third heaven is the first realm in God`s great kingdom to be populated. God created the angelic beings and they resided in the third heaven. The most beautiful and powerful angel was Lucifer. He was given authority as a king & a Priest over a whole order of angels.  He had a very special position near God. He was the anointed cherub, the son of the morning that led the worship in heaven.

The Old Testament prophets spoke of this time,  (Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28) These descriptions far transcend any earthly king and by the law of double reference reveal the original power and beauty of this greatest angel ever created by God. However Lucifer aspired to ascend into the highest heaven, `the sides of the north,` (hidden quarters), the abode of the eternal God.

 

So by divine decree, because of his pride, Lucifer was cast out of the third heaven, being found unworthy to rule there.  

 

`By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;....` (Ez. 28: 16)

 

Lucifer then usurped the area of Principalities and Powers in the universal realm and operates and rules there as the Prince of the Power of the air.

 

` ...the prince of the power of the air,....(Eph. 2: 2)

`...principalities,....powers....rulers of darkness....spiritual wickedness in high places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

 

 

 

 

Love the visual M.  Very good stuff indeed. It all makes sense to see how they were kicked out of THIRD HEAVEN to the Universe. 

By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;....` (Ez. 28: 16)

What does this verse mean to you?  My wife uses this verse to show proof that pre-adamites existed on Earth before Adam and Eve and that there was a whole world system here thriving with “trade” and business, with Satan leading them....again, long before Adam and Eve. There was a flood that wiped them all out (obviously not Noah’s flood).  Believing in this allows for the Earth to be 4.5 billions years old I suppose. Anyhow, I’m sure you heard of the Gap Theory. I hate to digress from my own thread but I’m curious as to what you think. Thanks.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Spock said:

Love the visual M.  Very good stuff indeed. It all makes sense to see how they were kicked out of THIRD HEAVEN to the Universe. 

By the abundance of your trading you became filled with violence within and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God;....` (Ez. 28: 16)

What does this verse mean to you?  My wife uses this verse to show proof that pre-adamites existed on Earth before Adam and Eve and that there was a whole world system here thriving with “trade” and business, with Satan leading them....again, long before Adam and Eve. There was a flood that wiped them all out (obviously not Noah’s flood).  Believing in this allows for the Earth to be 4.5 billions years old I suppose. Anyhow, I’m sure you heard of the Gap Theory. I hate to digress from my own thread but I’m curious as to what you think. Thanks.

Morning Spock,

Some rain on our dry land, PTL. Glad you appreciate my pics. I think it helps to see what God`s word says simply by a diagram. So to pre-adamites. (the gap theory)Well I don`t agree for a few reasons, and here are a few - 

`...death reigned from Adam to Moses,....` (Rom. 5: 14)  If there was a previous flood then death would have been the result of those beings.

`the FIRST man Adam became a living being...` (1 Cor. 15: 45) Adam was the first human being. There were none previously.

Angels were never given authority over the earth. We are shown that Satan usurped authority over Adam, but nothing previously.

God gives us a detailed description of Him creating, from the beginning, and we see the each `day` is 24 hours, not thousands of years.

For there to be an `old creation` that God does away with, there would have to be a saviour of their kind to save them. There isn`t. Jesus came of Adam`s race, none other.

etc, etc,

Hope that helps, Marilyn.

Better go and prepare the next segment of `the elephant` (big picture) and where we fit in.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Spock,

So to highlight an important point here.

When God created the heavens and the earth, He established 3 different realms with 3 positions of authority - in the third heaven, the Universe & the earth. Positions of authority symbolically are called `thrones.`  Notice the `s`, plural, thrones.

`For by Him, (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones.....` (Col. 1: 16)

Then we realise that the Old Testament prophets have told us that the mightiest angel, the one closest to God`s throne, was given the highest position of authority, (throne) in the highest realm of the created order. He was a kingpriest.

Now when Lucifer was cast out no angel has ever been given that position of authority, that throne.

Then we read that Lucifer, now called Satan usurped the authority in the realm of Principalities and Powers. This he did by deceiving man and thus holding sway over him and his generations.  

` ...the prince of the power of the air,....(Eph. 2: 2)

 

`...principalities,....powers....rulers of darkness....spiritual wickedness in high places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

 

And that position of authority is called, Principalities & Powers.

 

`For by Him, (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers...`(Col. 1: 16)

 

Job tells us that the heavens are not pure in God`s sight.

 

`...and the heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job 15: 15)

 

From that authority in the Principalities and Powers realm we are told that Satan holds sway over the kingdoms of this world.

 

`We know ....the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1 John 5: 19)

 

Thus we see that these three positions of authority, in the third heaven, the Universe, and on the earth, Lucifer/Satan has corrupted.

 

1.The authority, (throne) in the third heaven under God needs a righteous ruler and so does

2. the Universe realm of Principalities and Powers and

3.the kingdoms of this world also need to come under God`s righteous rulership.

 

The question then is, `How & When, will God do this restoring of rightful rulership?`

 

[Marilyn C]

[Spock]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

M.,

i have read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 and I can’t correlate those passages with your diagram.

You say Lucifer had a THRONE in the third heaven. I don’t see that. I did read this though...

“You said in your heart, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.”

That is different than what you claim. I don’t see a THRONE IN THE THIRD HEACEN....in fact it says Lucifer WANTS to raise his throne there, which to me implies his throne is in a lesser place.

God’s Throne in the third heaven is VACANT?  I have no idea what this about. The trinity are there so what more is needed? Do you think one angel was included? Show me in scripture where it says that.

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

So to highlight an important point here.

When God created the heavens and the earth, He established 3 different realms with 3 positions of authority - in the third heaven, the Universe & the earth. Positions of authority symbolically are called `thrones.`  Notice the `s`, plural, thrones.

`For by Him, (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones.....` (Col. 1: 16)

Then we realise that the Old Testament prophets have told us that the mightiest angel, the one closest to God`s throne, was given the highest position of authority, (throne) in the highest realm of the created order. He was a kingpriest.

Now when Lucifer was cast out no angel has ever been given that position of authority, that throne.

Then we read that Lucifer, now called Satan usurped the authority in the realm of Principalities and Powers. This he did by deceiving man and thus holding sway over him and his generations.  

` ...the prince of the power of the air,....(Eph. 2: 2)

 

`...principalities,....powers....rulers of darkness....spiritual wickedness in high places.` (Eph. 6: 12)

 

And that position of authority is called, Principalities & Powers.

 

`For by Him, (Christ) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers...`(Col. 1: 16)

 

Job tells us that the heavens are not pure in God`s sight.

 

`...and the heavens are not pure in His sight.` (Job 15: 15)

 

From that authority in the Principalities and Powers realm we are told that Satan holds sway over the kingdoms of this world.

 

`We know ....the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.` (1 John 5: 19)

 

Thus we see that these three positions of authority, in the third heaven, the Universe, and on the earth, Lucifer/Satan has corrupted.

 

1.The authority, (throne) in the third heaven under God needs a righteous ruler and so does

2. the Universe realm of Principalities and Powers and

3.the kingdoms of this world also need to come under God`s righteous rulership.

 

The question then is, `How & When, will God do this restoring of rightful rulership?`

 

We can be sure Satan controls the "heavens" that are below the 3rd heaven. Jesus said, "I saw Satan fall as lightning..." It was when the 70th was sent out, doing the same miracles Jesus did. Satan had to come and see this for himself!

Then in Rev. 12 Satan is cast DOWN from the heavenly realms. Then Paul talked about the prince of the power of the AIR, and "Powers"  - demonic forces in high places. 

We know Satan (and all his followers) will be cast down at the midpoint of the week.

[iamlamad]

On 3/21/2019 at 8:36 PM, The Light said:

I see those passages as the gathering that Paul spoke of in Thessalonians right before the wrath of God begins.  There are several proofs we can see. 1st the passage says that the angels are sent to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Second the timeline of the sun, moon and stars can be seen in Rev 6. I believe all the tribes are mouning because they see that Jesus is real and they realize that the wrath of God is about to begin.

If we examine 1 Thes 5, Paul TELLS US when his rapture will be: it will be just a moment before the "sudden destruciton" start of God's wrath, or we could say a moment before the start of the Day of the Lord or we could say a moment before the start of God's wrath. In any case John shows this at the 6th seal. Paul goes on to say that God WILL NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath. We get rapture and it will be those left behind who have appointments with His wrath. The rapture then  will come a moment BEFORE the 6th seal that begins His wrath.

I don't think Jesus will be SEEN at the 6th seal - they are just imagining how angry His face will look. He must stay in heaven until the end. HE returns for the battle of Armagedon. That is the coming shown in Matthew 24.  1 Thes. 4 shows His coming just before the 6th seal. TWO comings for TWO different purposes - the first pretrib FOR His saints, the other posttrib WITH His saints.

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

M.,

i have read Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 and I can’t correlate those passages with your diagram.

You say Lucifer had a THRONE in the third heaven. I don’t see that. I did read this though...

“You said in your heart, "I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.”

That is different than what you claim. I don’t see a THRONE IN THE THIRD HEACEN....in fact it says Lucifer WANTS to raise his throne there, which to me implies his throne is in a lesser place.

God’s Throne in the third heaven is VACANT?  I have no idea what this about. The trinity are there so what more is needed? Do you think one angel was included? Show me in scripture where it says that.

Hi Spock,

Now we know that God`s word tells us that Lucifer was cast out, to the Universal realm, where he is now. So where was he cast from? He and the 1/3 of angels were in the angelic realm where angels reside today - the third heaven, above the universe, and were cast out of there.

God`s Throne is ETERNAL and NOT in the creation. His authority and power is OVER ALL. In Col.1: 16 we read that the Lord MADE  thrones, etc, these are other thrones NOT the ETERNAL THRONE which is from eternity to eternity.

God`s throne, His SEAT OF POWER AND AUTHORITY, above all, is NOT in the third heaven. His authority and power obviously extends right through His creation, though. What God is talking about when He MADE `THRONES,` is that He made rulership positions in every realm UNDER HIMSELF, and that is why there are rulers, albeit rebellious.  

So, Spock, bro, `Where was Lucifer`s throne?` ` How you have fallen from heaven, Oh Lucifer, son of the morning! ...you said in your heart,...I will exalt MY THRONE...` (Isa. 14: 12 & 13)

Marilyn.

[Spock]

4 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Spock,

Now we know that God`s word tells us that Lucifer was cast out, to the Universal realm, where he is now. So where was he cast from? He and the 1/3 of angels were in the angelic realm where angels reside today - the third heaven, above the universe, and were cast out of there.

God`s Throne is ETERNAL and NOT in the creation. His authority and power is OVER ALL. In Col.1: 16 we read that the Lord MADE  thrones, etc, these are other thrones NOT the ETERNAL THRONE which is from eternity to eternity.

God`s throne, His SEAT OF POWER AND AUTHORITY, above all, is NOT in the third heaven. His authority and power obviously extends right through His creation, though. What God is talking about when He MADE `THRONES,` is that He made rulership positions in every realm UNDER HIMSELF, and that is why there are rulers, albeit rebellious.  

So, Spock, bro, `Where was Lucifer`s throne?` ` How you have fallen from heaven, Oh Lucifer, son of the morning! ...you said in your heart,...I will exalt MY THRONE...` (Isa. 14: 12 & 13)

Marilyn.

As far as I can tell, THIRD HEAVEN is only cited one time in the NIV translation in 2 Cor 12

2 Corinthians 12:2 (NIV)
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

So to be honest, I don’t know if the angels were kicked out of the third heaven or the second heaven. If you don’t mind showing me in scripture where it says the angels who follow Lucifer were kicked out of the third heaven. And while you are at it, don’t forget to show me where it says there is a VACANCY you previously mentioned. 

 

[Spock]

On 3/21/2019 at 10:20 PM, The Light said:

Remember these verses: Immediately after the tribulation of those days etc. Then they will see the coming of the son of man etc angels gather etc.

This says immediately after the tribulation of those days.  I told you I believe that the church will be raptured pre trib. When we go to Rev 4 and 5 we can clearly see that the church has come out of all nations and tribes etc. I would post the verses but I am on my phone.

In summary these are two separate events. The scriptures you posted regard the pre trib rapture when the Lord himself comes. In Matthew 24 He sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth right before the wrath of God begins in Rev 6

I do not agree Rev 6=Matt 24

I gave you one solid reason which you have not refuted yet, regarding the angels gathering. (Not gathering anyone in 1 Thess 4–rapture passage; doing a lot of gathering in Matt 24—second coming passage.)

i hope this is clear. If not, maybe I’m not communicating it well enough. I’m sure either or both Marilyn and LAmad will fill in the blanks. 

Spock out