Mid Trib rapture anyone?

[iamlamad]

37 minutes ago, Spock said:

Well, knowing in Rev 12 that “the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth and his angels with him.....and there was no longer a place for them IN HEAVEN” so I suppose they must be above the earths atmosphere to be thrown down to earth (I assume that means both the land and atmosphere). So I guess we can infer this is the 2nd heaven.  They obviously are in some heaven today, so the 2nd heaven makes sense. 

Regarding the “throne vacancy” honestly, I have no thoughts on that one. You didn’t provide a scripture reference so I guess you just assumed there is a vacancy for that throne. I will play along for now because I’m not sure where you are going with this.

i presume you are giving me this backdrop because you are building your case to show me why the rapture must take place before the 70th week begins, right?  At least, that was the question I asked of you a while back, right?  So, when you wake up and have time, lead on dear sister. Oh, and pleasant dreams....mine were weird! 

spock

Spock, also consider these scriptures:

Ephesians 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

[The Light]

10 hours ago, Spock said:

I do not agree Rev 6=Matt 24

I gave you one solid reason which you have not refuted yet, regarding the angels gathering. (Not gathering anyone in 1 Thess 4–rapture passage; doing a lot of gathering in Matt 24—second coming passage.)

i hope this is clear. If not, maybe I’m not communicating it well enough. I’m sure either or both Marilyn and LAmad will fill in the blanks. 

Spock out

I know you don’t think that the coming in Rev 6 = Matt 24 coming, and yet God clearly sets the timeline. 

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

God clearly gives you an absolute timeline starting point, but you won’t listen to Him because it makes no sense to you.

I have already shown you why your timeline is in error. Look again.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The church is clearly in heaven before before the tribulation begins. 

As for you showing that Armageddon occurs at Jesus coming in Matt 24, you have not shown any proof of that. All we can see is there is a gathering.

Matt 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Conclusion: Since we see the church in heaven in Rev 5 your timeline cannot be correct. Since we see the sun moon and stars event in both Matthew 24 and Rev 6 your timeline cannot be correct. Since we see a gathering just prior to the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Armageddon your timeline cannot be correct. Just plain facts and logic Mr Spock.

i would start by trying to figure out what the church is doing in heaven in Rev 5.

 

 

[The Light]

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by The Light

[The Light]

3 hours ago, JohnD said:

All three eschatological camps are correct about the one rapture (but not the way everybody thinks)...

The one rapture takes place on day 1335 of the 70th Week of Daniel (a seven year period of 2520 days)

according to Daniel 12:12.

Daniel 12:11 mentions the beginning of the Great Tribulation (1290 days from the end). 

Until this point Christians will be hunted down and destroyed (Matthew 10:21-22) for not worshiping the 

beast (false messiah) see Matthew 24:24 (the indwelling Holy Spirit being the only one that prevents this 

from happening). 

Then the events of Daniel 7 and 2Thessalonians will take place as the beast reneges on his covenant with

the world (affirming the Old Covenant [Daniel 9:27] and declaring the New Covenant a cult [Revelation 13:6]) 

and the beast reverts to his original false religion on the plains of Shinar (Babylon) [Zechariah 5:5-11].

When the Jews realize they've been had, they become the refuseniks the Christians had been and thus the hatred

of the whole world will come upon them as never before. Prompting the Armageddon campaign / scenario in the very end.

When as the last of the last of the last of resorts (for them) takes place and in their most desperate hour they cry out to 

Jesus for saving them from the whole world's attempt to utterly utterly destroy them. 

"Hosanna!"

"Hosha Nah!"

Save Now!

Yehoshua HaMoshiakh!

The rapture will take place in all three eschatological scenarios but in a different way than most understand it. 

I never understood how all three camps could quote scripture to support their views until the Spirit showed that

man has the 70th Week of Daniel itself divided all wrong. It is not one seven year tribulation but two three and a half

year tribulations.

1. The Christian's (believer's in Jesus) tribulation in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel
2. The Great Tribulation (of the world) in the second half

The rapture will take place in the first 105 days of the Great Tribulation (day 1335 of the 2520 day 70th 

Week of Daniel) or:

PRE Great Tribulation

MID 70th Week of Daniel

POST Believer's Tribulation

____________________________________________________________________________________

This is not date setting as we are told not to set dates.  No one knows when the first day of the 70th Week takes place.

Except for the Father of course.

We will know when it began when the Temple sacrifices are abated 1290 days

from the end and will be able to back date the approximate beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel.

And the only ones who understand it all (those few Christians who survive to this point ) will be driven by then so 

far under ground they may not even be aware that the most significant event in their time before the rapture

will have taken place: when the devil incarnate claims to be God Almighty and reverts the world back to Nimrodian Bayblonianism...

 

The final 7 years is the 70th week of Daniel. The church is already in heaven before the 70th week begins via the pretribulation rapture. The 70 week is when God deals with the Jews which occurs after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Daniel 9 says: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people. That would be the Jews.

 

 

[The Light]

12 hours ago, iamlamad said:

If we examine 1 Thes 5, Paul TELLS US when his rapture will be: it will be just a moment before the "sudden destruciton" start of God's wrath, or we could say a moment before the start of the Day of the Lord or we could say a moment before the start of God's wrath. In any case John shows this at the 6th seal. Paul goes on to say that God WILL NOT set any appointments for us with His wrath. We get rapture and it will be those left behind who have appointments with His wrath. The rapture then  will come a moment BEFORE the 6th seal that begins His wrath.

I don't think Jesus will be SEEN at the 6th seal - they are just imagining how angry His face will look. He must stay in heaven until the end. HE returns for the battle of Armagedon. That is the coming shown in Matthew 24.  1 Thes. 4 shows His coming just before the 6th seal. TWO comings for TWO different purposes - the first pretrib FOR His saints, the other posttrib WITH His saints.

Hi LA, 

i don’t think what you are saying is correct because we already see the church in heaven during Rev 5.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The church will escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the son of man.

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[Spock]

3 hours ago, The Light said:

I know you don’t think that the coming in Rev 6 = Matt 24 coming, and yet God clearly sets the timeline. 

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

God clearly gives you an absolute timeline starting point, but you won’t listen to Him because it makes no sense to you.

I have already shown you why your timeline is in error. Look again.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The church is clearly in heaven before before the tribulation begins. 

As for you showing that Armageddon occurs at Jesus coming in Matt 24, you have not shown any proof of that. All we can see is there is a gathering.

Matt 24

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Conclusion: Since we see the church in heaven in Rev 5 your timeline cannot be correct. Since we see the sun moon and stars event in both Matthew 24 and Rev 6 your timeline cannot be correct. Since we see a gathering just prior to the beginning of the day of the Lord and not Armageddon your timeline cannot be correct. Just plain facts and logic Mr Spock.

i would start by trying to figure out what the church is doing in heaven in Rev 5.

 

 

Greetings again Light....you are persistent.....I love it....I did ask anyone to show me where or why my proposed timeline is in error, and you are doing just that. (Thank you) 

so, you believe the church is being represented in Heaven in Rev 5. Well, let’s back up to see what the word says...

“And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.”

Hmmmm, so, it appears to me the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders ar the ones singing the new song, not the church. 

So why do you think the church is in Heaven here in Rev 5.  (Side note...I see the church in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17) 

By the way, I like you calling me Mr Spock.....thank you......?

Edited March 23, 2019 by Spock

[The Light]

1 hour ago, Spock said:

Greetings again Light....you are persistent.....I love it....

so, you believe the church is being represented in Heaven in Rev 5. Well, let’s back up to see what the word says...

“And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.”

Hmmmm, so, it appears to me the 4 living creatures and the 24 elders ar the ones singing the new song, not the church. 

So why do you think the church is in Heaven here in Rev 5.  (Side note...I see the church in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17) 

By the way, I like you calling me Mr Spock.....thank you......?

What are the elders doing in heaven? They were obviously raptured as they were redeemed from the earth. Additionally for the 24 elders to be redeemed from every kindred and tongue and people and nation there would have to be more than 24 of them. Pure logic Mr Spock. 

The twenty four elders have received their crowns and cast them before the throne, same as we will receive our crowns.

This definitely is the church in Rev 5. Revelation Man noted that in an earlier post. What you see in Rev 7 is both the Jews and the Gentiles. Jesus will bring both folds into one.

John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So in summary: The church is raptured pre trib as they can escape all the things that will come to pass. The church needs to be ready as they will not know when the master will return. The church will raptured at the first trump, the left horn. God then turns his attention to the Jew, the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth, for the 70th week of Daniel. He has promised that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in he will remove the blindness from their eyes. They will be raptured at the last trump, the right horn. They will see the things that are happening on the earth and are told to look up, their redemption draws nigh. That day will not take them unaware. 

The tribulation and 70th week will be complete as shown in Matt 24, and then the wrath of God begins as shown in Rev 6. The remnant of the nation of Israel that flees as they are told to when they see the abomination of desolation goes through the wrath of God in a place of safety. None of the people of God, which is the church, the twelve tribes who have their blindness removed, or the remnant that flees goes through the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath.

Pure logic Mr Spock.

 

 

 

[Isaacsname]

If people have all the answers how will there be a great deception ?

[iamlamad]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

Hi LA, 

i don’t think what you are saying is correct because we already see the church in heaven during Rev 5.

Rev 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The church will escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the son of man.

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You are assuming the 24 elders are "the church." Most people don't assume that. Indeed, the timing of chapter 5 is right when Jesus was found worthy to open the seals - around 32 AD. There was no church then!

You must follow the clues John gives us, without making assumptions.

Notice that John DID NOT see Jesus at the right hand of the FAther in chapter 4 - but saw Him as He ascended in chapter 5

Notice that "no man was found" worthy in that first search John watched.

Notice that the Holy Spirit was NOT YET sent down in chapter 4, but was in chapter 5.

These are all TIMING clues

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, The Light said:

What are the elders doing in heaven? They were obviously raptured as they were redeemed from the earth. Additionally for the 24 elders to be redeemed from every kindred and tongue and people and nation there would have to be more than 24 of them. Pure logic Mr Spock. 

The twenty four elders have received their crowns and cast them before the throne, same as we will receive our crowns.

This definitely is the church in Rev 5. Revelation Man noted that in an earlier post. What you see in Rev 7 is both the Jews and the Gentiles. Jesus will bring both folds into one.

John 10

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So in summary: The church is raptured pre trib as they can escape all the things that will come to pass. The church needs to be ready as they will not know when the master will return. The church will raptured at the first trump, the left horn. God then turns his attention to the Jew, the twelve tribes that are scattered across the earth, for the 70th week of Daniel. He has promised that when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in he will remove the blindness from their eyes. They will be raptured at the last trump, the right horn. They will see the things that are happening on the earth and are told to look up, their redemption draws nigh. That day will not take them unaware. 

The tribulation and 70th week will be complete as shown in Matt 24, and then the wrath of God begins as shown in Rev 6. The remnant of the nation of Israel that flees as they are told to when they see the abomination of desolation goes through the wrath of God in a place of safety. None of the people of God, which is the church, the twelve tribes who have their blindness removed, or the remnant that flees goes through the wrath of God. We are not appointed to wrath.

Pure logic Mr Spock.

Your logic has flaws!  In the first place, your TIMING is all wrong. John gives timing clues, but you have missed them. The timing of chapter 5 is right when Jesus ascended. The church was in infancy stage. This throne room vision was a vision of the past. The rapture is STILL FUTURE today! At the time of this vision, around 32 AD, Paul had not yet received the revelation of the rapture!

I suspect you are imagining the rapture in 4:1. That theory is MYTH: it was JOHN caught up to heaven. 

Perhaps the elders are singing the song that will represent all believers of all time - not just specifically them. the NIV has it:  "because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation."

This is truth: Jesus DID redeem people from all nations

This definitely is the church in Rev 5.   No, this is MYTH. The church is seen in Rev.  as the great crowd too large to number.

So in summary: The church is raptured pre trib  Absolute truth. But can you pinpoint the start of the 70th week in Revelation? Can you show the rapture before that point in Revelation? (It is NOT in Rev. 4:1) Can you pinpoint where we are NOW in the book of Revelation? The rapture must be after that point. (Pure logic)

The church will raptured at the first trump, the left horn.  Left horn?  No, the church will be raptured at the LAST trump.

The tribulation and 70th week will be complete as shown in Matt 24, and then the wrath of God begins as shown in Rev 6.  TOTAL Myth! You show no regard whatsoever for John's chronology.

Axiom on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

Your theory will be proven wrong. The truth is, God's wrath begins at the start of the Day of the Lord, at the 6th seal, right where John TELLS US it begins, but the 70th week does not begin until the 7th seal.  The 70th week is marked by 7's - starts at the 7th seal and ends with the 7th vial. And it is in its entirety God's wrath. every trumpet judgment will come with His wrath. You have put the "tribulation" in the first seals. That part is myth. The "tribulation" is the 70th week - and the 70th week is the tribulation. The days of great tribulation will not even BEGIN until after the warning in chapter 14.....and you imagine they will come before the 6th seal. This is prewrath theory which was wrong from the beginning.  Go back and read the axiom again.

Your logic needs a rework!