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Posted
20 minutes ago, The Light said:
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  No, only you it seems sees the church in heaven in chapter 5.

Seems like Revelation Man also sees the church in heaven in Rev 5. I have never heard of anyone that agrees with what you are saying as there is absolutely no scriptural support.

As do I.  The description of the Elders dovetails perfectly with the description of the redeemed that make up the church.  

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Posted
12 minutes ago, The Light said:

The "tribulation" is in seals 1-5? That is myth.

Right, and that verse, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION is myth also?

No, I mean the tribulation as in the tribulation spoken of, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. That's the tribulation I'm referring to. The same one in Matthew.

Lets look: So "the tribulation" in your mind is when Jesus said "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." OK, Got it. So in reality what you are meaning is the 70th week of Daniel - whether you know it or not. Did you notice what Jesus said BEFORE He said that? His first comment on the end was the abomination event. (Mat 24:15) It comes WAY before "immediately after." If we read Daniel 9:27, what ever stops the daily sacrifices will divide the week into two halves. Add in what Paul said: the man of sin will enter the most holy place in the temple and declare he is God. That event will stop the daily sacrifices: the temple will have to be cleansed. So putting these verses together we see that the abomination even will divide the week. Jesus also said that the days of great tribulation would start AFTER this abomination. Are you following me? He also said that those in Judea would flee when they SEE the abomination. 

Where do we see this fleeing? It is in chapter 12:6. This is a long ways AFTER seals 1-5. 

Where is Jesus coming in Revelation that matches His coming in Matthew 24? of course it is in chapter 19. So all those events before chapter 19 must be days of tribulation. Did you notice in chapter 13 what CAUSES the days of great tribulation? Did you read about the image and the Beast forcing people to worship this image or lose their head? Did you read in chapter 13 about the mark, and people would lose their head if they refuse the mark? Did you notice that God's warning about the mark is not until chapter 14, PROVING that the mark is not created until chapter 14? This is a LONG ways from seals 1-5. 

There is verse after verse after verse proving your theory is false. What proof do you have to prove your theory true? Can you FIND "tribulation" in these seals without twisting scripture or pulling it out of context?

My point is, in Revelation, "the trib" or the 70th week goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16. The week ends with the 7th vial. So GOD puts the days of tribulation late in Revelation, NOT in the first seals. Next, if you don't pull the first seals out of their context, the bible is clear: Jesus began opening the seals in 32 AD - as soon as He ascended. So your theory fails any way we look at it. 

Make no mistake, the tribulation in Matthew is the very same tribulation in Revelation, only John gives us chapters, not verses.  Did you not notice when the beheaded begin to show up in heaven? It is NOT UNTIL CHAPTER 15!!!!! So your theory if the seals is in error, and further it is preposterous.


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Posted
5 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

As do I.  The description of the Elders dovetails perfectly with the description of the redeemed that make up the church.  

It also fits the redeemed of the Old Testament. Your argument fails.


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Posted
28 minutes ago, The Light said:

Sure, but I have great doubt you have any clue whatsoever about the timeline you just spoke of. The word midpoint instead of midst is the tip-off.

Did you not look at the Hebrew word behind "midst?" It is a word that means to divide in half. It was translated many times as "midnight." I think God knows how to divide in half. The 5 mentions of the HALF WEEK in Revelation is proof positive that God can divide 7 years into two equal halves 

By the way, the first time God spoke to me about Revelation, it was while I was reading Daniel 9:27: when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" Jesus spoke these words: "you could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."

Please don't feel hurt, but I am going to take His words over yours, any day of the week. It is biblical fact: one day the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God. That event will stop the daily sacrifices and will divide the week: 1260 days / 1260 days. 

Since Jesus Himself used "exact midpoint" you are correct: it is the tip-off: I am in perfect agreement with Jesus here.


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Posted
11 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You said that wrong: allow me to assist: What you are saying does not agree with [my theory of] scripture.

What do you mean, "no scriptural support?" Everything I post comes straight from the scriptures! The problem is, too many people read with preconceived glasses so don't get the true message.

"no support!" How silly. My first argument is that Jesus was NOT SEEN at the right hand of the Father in chapter 4, when John looked into the throne room. Yet we have over a dozen verses telling us that is where He SHOULD BE in 95 AD. My second point is that in the first search john watched for one worthy to open the book, "no man was found." You can disagree "till the cows come home" but you will still be wrong when the cows are in the barn. The question you must answer is, WHY no man was found in this search - and your answer must also relate to Jesus not being seen at the right hand of the Father. Another point: the Holy Spirit was seen by John in chapter 4, but Jesus said He would send Him down as soon as He ascended. now you have three problems to solve. Your answer must explain all three things.

It does not really matter HOW MANY "see" the church in heaven in Rev. 5. God does not see the church in heaven until chapter 7. Could you please show us all what verse or verses in chapter 5 tell you the church is there? Also the verse when they got there.

What more clearly, I think, should have been stated is that you do not have scriptural support from both OT and NT for your case.  That would have been the better way to phrase it instead of just "no scriptural support".

This is why the Holy Spirit told us to test everything.  And His standard of which doctrinal positions are to be established is thru both OT and NT jointly.  Again, as I have stated, your position must have scriptural support from the OT as well.  I have yet to see you provide equal support in the OT for the interpretation you are assigning the passage in Revelation.  

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It also fits the redeemed of the Old Testament. Your argument fails.

No it does not.  The redeemed of the OT were never part of the church that was established at Shavuot following Yeshua's resurrection. Even John the Baptist was not included.....

Matthew 11:11 (NKJV) “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Yeshua was stating that none, including Moses, the Prophets, etc, were greater than JB.  But even the least in the kingdom is greater than JB.  It is no degradation of John, but a statement of there are separate groups of redeemed.  There is the OT saints, the Church, and the trib saints. All equally redeemed by the blood of Yeshua, but not all in the same group.

And it was never stated in the OT or anywhere else that the OT saints or the GT saints will rule with a rod of iron along side Yeshua as it does the church saints in Revelation 2.  There are many unique descriptions of things regarding the church saints that are never said of OT saints. None of the OT saints were called both Kings and Priests like Peter and John stated of the church saints.

This really shouldn't be surprising.  Yahweh is not a socialist that lumps everyone into the same category.  The angels are in different categories with uniquely different roles to play.  Likewise of the redeemed.

Edited by OldCoot

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Posted
1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

What more clearly, I think, should have been stated is that you do not have scriptural support from both OT and NT for your case.  That would have been the better way to phrase it instead of just "no scriptural support".

This is why the Holy Spirit told us to test everything.  And His standard of which doctrinal positions are to be established is thru both OT and NT jointly.  Again, as I have stated, your position must have scriptural support from the OT as well.  I have yet to see you provide equal support in the OT for the interpretation you are assigning the passage in Revelation.  

Look, if you want to IMAGINE Jesus is there in the throne room in chapter 4, and imagine John was mistaken about "no man found," it is OK.  As I have said over and over, there are things in the New Testament NOT supported in the Old Testament. Anyway, soon we will be in heaven and you will find out the truth. 

Do you believe Jesus left heaven to be born of a virgin? Can you find that in the Old?

Can you find He was on earth during those 32 or so years? 

Can you find He had to die in the Old? 

Can you find He would be dead 3 days and 3 nights in the Old? 

Can you find that God would not allow His body to corrupt in the old? Therefore He MUST RISE in the Old Testament.

Can you find that He would ascend back on High in the Old - to sit at the right hand of God? 

Be honest now, OldCoot: you KNOW these things are all in the Old without me showing them to you. 

What you are having problems with is seeing these events in the words of chapters 4 & 5. All I can say is, take off your preconceived glasses and read closer.  You KNOW it is fact: John did not see Jesus at the right hand of the father. You imagine He was there, but Jesus TOLD ME it was while He was on earth. Since you KNOW He spent time on earth, why not at least TRY and see this as a possibility? 

You KNOW Jesus was not found (NO MAN was found) in that first search. Sorry, no book and no search for one worthy ANYWHERE in the Old. You will just have to believe the New. I have yet for you to give ANY reason why Jesus was not found in this first search. Have you been avoiding it? 

You KNOW that Jesus finally rose from the dead and then ascended. When then can you not SEE that in chapter 5? I think it is written quite clearly. 

 

 

 

 

 

 


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Posted
2 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

No it does not.  The redeemed of the OT were never part of the church that was established at Shavuot following Yeshua's resurrection. Even John the Baptist was not included.....

Matthew 11:11 (NKJV) “Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Yeshua was stating that none, including Moses, the Prophets, etc, were greater than JB.  But even the least in the kingdom is greater than JB.  It is no degradation of John, but a statement of there are separate groups of redeemed.  There is the OT saints, the Church, and the trib saints. All equally redeemed by the blood of Yeshua, but not all in the same group.

And it was never stated in the OT or anywhere else that the OT saints or the GT saints will rule with a rod of iron along side Yeshua as it does the church saints in Revelation 2.  There are many unique descriptions of things regarding the church saints that are never said of OT saints. None of the OT saints were called both Kings and Priests like Peter and John stated of the church saints.

Let's stick to chapters 4 & 5, shall we? Don't change the subject or do a side step. 

Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Answer the question: DOES THESE WORDS FIT THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS as well as the New? Did Jesus' blood remove THEIR sins? Did His blood redeem THEM to God? If you say no, then they can never make it to heaven. 

Did you forget that Jesus told the disciples that they would be judges in the Millennium? Jesus was talking to JEWs when He told them the parable of the talents. 


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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

As I have said over and over, there are things in the New Testament NOT supported in the Old Testament.

That is true in a general sense. But in regards to doctrine, it the standard established in the Torah and affirmed by the Berean example in Acts 17.  And they got the HS stamp of approval.   They searched the scriptures to see if what Paul taught them was true.  Paul's teachings make the lion's shared of doctrinal positions in the NT.  It can be argued effectively that Romans is Paul's systematic theology for the church.   For the Bereans to accept his teaching, it had to be also exhibited in the OT.  And for holding to that, they were commended.

Your position involves some heavy duty doctrine.  You are stating that the seals started being opened as soon as Yeshua ascended.  For that to be true, then the redeemed are not removed.  I contend the elders of Revelation 4 onward are the church, as their description mirrors the description of the redeemed of the church, being kings and priests and redeemed, and they are divided into 24 as was the priests during King David's reign. So the seals are not opened yet as the church has not been removed.  Isaiah, Zechariah, Jeremiah, and yes, even King David in the Psalms all support a removal of the righteous before these things.   So, it falls upon you to show from the OT the counter of that to support you assertion, that the judgements of those seals occurs before the righteous are removed. 

Even the 4th seal in Revelation is explicitly referenced in Isaiah 28.  And that passage has the end times / Day of the Lord in view.

Edited by OldCoot

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Posted
25 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."

Answer the question: DOES THESE WORDS FIT THE OLD TESTAMENT SAINTS as well as the New?

No.  You cannot find one time that OT saints are even categorized the same as NT saints.

Not once are OT saints told they will have crowns.  NT saints are. 

Not once are OT saints told that they will reign with a rod of iron just as Yeshua will.  The NT saints are.  

Nowhere are the OT saints even given the illustration that they constitute the body of Yeshua and more specifically, are the bride of Yeshua.  The NT saints are.

It is true that Israel was to be a nation of priests before the Lord, but never a royal priesthood like the NT saints are called by Peter.

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