The Hebrews Roots Movement

[Elihoenai]

2 hours ago, pinacled said:

 Where did Mosheh learn Torah?

Where I'm from it is disrespectfull to give obience to angels and menkind .

Reverence in Wisdom comes from above and is impartial.

Do you agree?

Everything is done for the Praise of Elohim, as Yeshua teaches. We are partial to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

 

Luke 2:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;

 

John 7:19 King James Version (KJV)

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Edited May 30, 2019 by Elihoenai

[NickyLouse]

14 hours ago, Elihoenai said:

We are using the word "Obey" to mean, do, keep, perform and practice. Are you doing/performing all the Law of Moses? If yes, you would be the first person that I have heard declare such a thing. Even Jews according to the flesh, confess that they are not able to practice all the Laws of Moses.

When you say your congregation agrees with all that, does that mean you practice the things listed? If it is not secret, what congregation are you a member of?

 

Leviticus 18:3-4 King James Version (KJV)

3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I am the Lord your God.

Our congregation, Arrowhead Messianic Congregation in Peoria, AZ, does not want to put stumbling blocks before anyone and so it is only to our edification to follow certain laws (and I admit wholeheartedly that I do not know where the line is drawn on each one). We do still observe the moedim (feasts), but not precisely as it is prescribed. We are asked not to bring shellfish or pork to our onegs (potlucks). Of course, we teach that all of the commandments given at Mount Sinai should be followed to the best of our ability and we also know that to love Adonai and to love our neighbor will accomplish those requirements.

We believe that the animal sacrifices have been suspended until the temple in Heaven comes when the New Jerusalem is established in the millennial reign at which time the sacrifices will be re-instituted. The reason that it will be required then is for the nations that have made it through the great tribulation and whereas faith has become sight of Yeshua and it is no longer possible to simply have faith by believing. Faith will be recognized by what is done.

I am not an official representative of our congregation and I am not certain that I hold to all that is taught, but I think this is partly what is believed by the teachers and elders there.

[Still Alive]

On 3/13/2019 at 9:59 PM, turtletwo said:

If you know of the history of the Hebrews Roots Movement, I invite you to share it.

This covers it quite nicely:

 

http://drmsh.com/hebrew-roots-movement/

 

This study on Hebrews also addresses it a bit: https://nakedbiblepodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/NB-173-Transcript.pdf

Edited May 30, 2019 by Still Alive

[Elihoenai]

17 hours ago, NickyLouse said:

Our congregation, Arrowhead Messianic Congregation in Peoria, AZ, does not want to put stumbling blocks before anyone and so it is only to our edification to follow certain laws (and I admit wholeheartedly that I do not know where the line is drawn on each one). We do still observe the moedim (feasts), but not precisely as it is prescribed. We are asked not to bring shellfish or pork to our onegs (potlucks). Of course, we teach that all of the commandments given at Mount Sinai should be followed to the best of our ability and we also know that to love Adonai and to love our neighbor will accomplish those requirements.

We believe that the animal sacrifices have been suspended until the temple in Heaven comes when the New Jerusalem is established in the millennial reign at which time the sacrifices will be re-instituted. The reason that it will be required then is for the nations that have made it through the great tribulation and whereas faith has become sight of Yeshua and it is no longer possible to simply have faith by believing. Faith will be recognized by what is done.

I am not an official representative of our congregation and I am not certain that I hold to all that is taught, but I think this is partly what is believed by the teachers and elders there.

We are well aware that among the Messianic Community there is no consensus and there exists a multitude of divergent views. The Messianics seek to unify Judaism (Jewish Tradition) with Christianity (Christian Tradition).  This usually results in a mixed congregation of Jews and Gentiles, with Gentiles not being required to do such things as Circumcision. Sometimes congregations have only Jews and only Gentiles.

Given that you don't do the feasts precisely as prescribed, does it not follow that you are, actually, not keeping the Feasts? How could it be possible that you are meeting the requirement of loving Adonai, when you do not do the Feasts, he commanded, precisely as prescribed? Elohim/Adonai has Exacting Standards! 

The Jews according to the flesh, has stated that they cannot do many of the Laws of Moses, because currently they don't have a Temple to do sacrifices and, apparently, Messianics (maybe not all) subscribe to the same. Do you not consider that the return of Animal Sacrifice is a rejection of the Sacrifice of Yeshua Messiah/Christ? Is not the Sacrifice of Yeshua Messiah/Christ sufficient as Elohim's/Adonai's atonement/forgiveness? If Adonai/Elohim wanted Animal Sacrifice to continue, why is this not demonstrated through the ministry of Yeshua?

 

1 Corinthians 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Edited May 31, 2019 by Elihoenai

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom Elihoenai,

3 hours ago, Elihoenai said:

We are well aware that among the Messianic Community there is no consensus and there exists a multitude of divergent views.

As there are in the Christian community also.

3 hours ago, Elihoenai said:

Given that you don't do the feasts precisely as prescribed, does it not follow that you are, actually, not keeping the Feasts?

Yes, we cannot follow the feasts as exactly prescribed.  However, thankfully we are not under the Law.  So we are free to observe the Feasts in the way that we can.  What can we do then?  Well, we can observe the high sabbaths, observe some practices of the Feasts and read, reflect and learn their prophetic message throughout the year.  What a privilege it is to experience these Feasts even in a diminished form.

3 hours ago, Elihoenai said:

Do you not consider that the return of Animal Sacrifice is a rejection of the Sacrifice of Yeshua Messiah/Christ?

Not necessarily so. It seems you may need to go back and study Leviticus to see the various types of offerings.  Also, you ought to consider the offerings given in the vision Ezekiel had of the future Temple.  

3 hours ago, Elihoenai said:

If Adonai/Elohim wanted Animal Sacrifice to continue, why is this not demonstrated through the ministry of Yeshua?

Do you mean why did the Lord Yeshua not perform offerings?  If so, that is because he was not of the tribe of Levi, of course.  If you mean why didn't He offer any through the priests, how do you know He didn't?  There is a lot implied in the gospels.  They assume the reader has mastery over the Old Testament, or at least a decent understanding of it.  Therefore, when the Lord Yeshua celebrated the Feasts etc, do you suppose He didn't bring an offering to Yahweh?  Don't you think if He resisted such things that the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes wouldn't have picked up on this - seeing as they were keen to criticise him at every turn.

I hope that gives you some another approach to consider.

Love & Shalom

[NickyLouse]

3 hours ago, Elihoenai said:

We are well aware that among the Messianic Community there is no consensus and there exists a multitude of divergent views. The Messianics seek to unify Judaism (Jewish Tradition) with Christianity (Christian Tradition).  This usually results in a mixed congregation of Jews and Gentiles, with Gentiles not being required to do such things as Circumcision. Sometimes congregations have only Jews and only Gentiles.

Given that you don't do the feasts precisely as prescribed, does it not follow that you are, actually, not keeping the Feasts? How could it be possible that you are meeting the requirement of loving Adonai, when you do not do the Feasts, he commanded, precisely as prescribed? Elohim/Adonai has Exacting Standards! 

The Jews according to the flesh, has stated that they cannot do many of the Laws of Moses, because currently they don't have a Temple to do sacrifices and, apparently, Messianics (maybe not all) subscribe to the same. Do you not consider that the return of Animal Sacrifice is a rejection of the Sacrifice of Yeshua Messiah/Christ? Is not the Sacrifice of Yeshua Messiah/Christ sufficient as Elohim's/Adonai's atonement/forgiveness? If Adonai/Elohim wanted Animal Sacrifice to continue, why is this not demonstrated through the ministry of Yeshua?

 

1 Corinthians 1:23 King James Version (KJV)

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

You have some very good questions and I appreciate your stretching my mind about them. I cannot give too good of a defense about why we do not follow the feasts exactly. For example, I have asked myself (and my rabbi) whether I should live in actual booths made from palm fronds for an entire week. Our congregation does build a makeshift booth from palm fronds since they are in abundance here, but we only have a sermon under them and then they are taken down. I would suspect that if I wanted to live in one, my rabbi would encourage it. Incidentally, it is the feasts that draw me to learn more about Hebraic roots. If we could possibly all agree that the Spring feasts were about His first coming, then perhaps it follows that the Fall feasts are about His return. So if the feasts were to be abandoned after His first coming, why did God give us the Fall feasts. Did He change His mind about that when Israel rejected Christ? Would they have continued in observing them if they had accepted Him?

I have also questioned the teaching about animal sacrifices returning. His sacrifice was ABSOLUTELY SUFFICIENT FOR ALL. It was explained to me that we who believe without seeing do so according to faith, but when He returns there will be no need for faith since they will see Him in the flesh. Those who believed God before the crucifixion believed by faith. After the cross, we believe by faith that He did come and die for our sins. Even those who walked with Jesus believed by faith (granted it was probably easy to do). However, after He returns and displays His glory for all to see, faith in Him will be moot. Therefore, they will be judged according to their obedience.

I cannot explain it too much better than that. Perhaps I can find some passages that support all of this. I have only been studying it for about a year so I still feel that I have much to understand. I will say that if I do not see clearly whether what some call the ceremonial law should be followed, I will certainly drop the belief because it is my only desire to listen and pay heed to what God says.

Blessings Brother

Edited May 31, 2019 by NickyLouse

[NickyLouse]

13 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Do you mean why did the Lord Yeshua not perform offerings?  If so, that is because he was not of the tribe of Levi, of course.  If you mean why didn't He offer any through the priests, how do you know He didn't?  There is a lot implied in the gospels.  They assume the reader has mastery over the Old Testament, or at least a decent understanding of it.  Therefore, when the Lord Yeshua celebrated the Feasts etc, do you suppose He didn't bring an offering to Yahweh?  Don't you think if He resisted such things that the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes wouldn't have picked up on this - seeing as they were keen to criticise him at every turn.

Yeshua was also baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness, but not for repentance for the forgiveness of His sins.

Edited May 31, 2019 by NickyLouse

[Tzephanyahu]

8 minutes ago, NickyLouse said:

Yeshua was also baptized by John to fulfill all righteousness, but not for repentance for the forgiveness of His sins.

True.  But again, not every offering prescribed in Torah is to cover sin.  

[NickyLouse]

3 minutes ago, Tzephanyahu said:

True.  But again, not every offering prescribed in Torah is to cover sin.  

John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”

Mark 1:4, Matthew 3:15

[Tzephanyahu]

@NickyLouse I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here .  Unless I'm missing the point you're making?