Are these the twelve last shepherds in Israel ?

[R. Hartono]

45 minutes ago, Tampered With said:

Be careful with the Book of Enoch as it has many PROBLEMS!

We do not base our Faith on the book of Enoch.

[Jayne]

2 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

Thats right bro. The book of Joshua also mentioned the book of jasher which is not accepted by scholars, but the book of jasher n the book of Enoch was preserved in many generation by the jews, Jude quoted it i think he knew better than us, though some verses may hv been altered now. Its the only book that explained the world of the fallen angels who taught mankind many skills such as  sorceries, mining, etc n created monsters n explained the inprisonment of azazel in the bottomless pit, the Hebrew gave two goats for atonement, one for God, one for azazel to b thrown away at the desert because azazel is bound at the desert until now.

I tried, brother.  I honest to God tried.  This morning, writing my second post to you, my heart sped up worrying that there are people out there who trust this book.

Why do you believe what's in this book when it's been proven over and over to be a false teaching.

And how do you know Jude quoted the author of this book - who wasn't Enoch.  The quotes are not exactly the same, you know.

How do you know that Jude and the author of Enoch didn't quote oral tradition or quote someone else.

For example.  A lot of Enoch-lovers like to say that Jesus quoted this author of Enoch when he said, "The meek shall inherit the earth".  No so.  King David said it first.  Jesus was quoting David.

I'm done here as I am making absolutely no impression.

But I would like to know why you put your trust in this book and your belief in it when it's been proven lies.

[Justin Adams]

5 hours ago, Jayne said:

I'm done here as I am making absolutely no impression.

Do not worry unduly. Folk watch all kinds of trash on TV and read stupid books on prophesy. We all have to become scholars. They look at texts and verify what is written by MANY peer reviews. They use their minds as God intended. The church folk have been misled to believe they are incapable of learning from ancient texts. Fear has driven them away from perfectly good material that Yeshua and all the apostles read. If you can verify a text based on critical analysis of word forms, Targums, Hebrew and Greek is it easy to see what is what. Don't let the theologians dictate what you can think. Study and keep studying well, for YOURSELF.

[R. Hartono]

On 8/9/2019 at 11:13 PM, Justin Adams said:

If you look at the various 'Q' documents found, there are some very interesting commentaries and some include Enoch and other writings that were available at the time of Yeshua. So when Saul says 'all scriptures are beneficial...etc' he is referring to stuff he had available. The NT was largely unformed at that time. So he had the Tanach, Talmuds, other Judaic writings along with Enoch, The Giants and others. That was his study material. It is only modern seminaries that did not want to embrace these old writings that effectively told everyone it was EVIL to read them. A kind of inquisitional mindset. It has served us badly because there is so much more of a COSMIC nature to learn from God and His dealings both in the natural and spiritual realm.

 

 

6 hours ago, Jayne said:

I tried, brother.  I honest to God tried.  This morning, writing my second post to you, my heart sped up worrying that there are people out there who trust this book.

Why do you believe what's in this book when it's been proven over and over to be a false teaching.

And how do you know Jude quoted the author of this book - who wasn't Enoch.  The quotes are not exactly the same, you know.

How do you know that Jude and the author of Enoch didn't quote oral tradition or quote someone else.

For example.  A lot of Enoch-lovers like to say that Jesus quoted this author of Enoch when he said, "The meek shall inherit the earth".  No so.  King David said it first.  Jesus was quoting David.

I'm done here as I am making absolutely no impression.

But I would like to know why you put your trust in this book and your belief in it when it's been proven lies.

We do not base our faith in the book of Enoch either, but on the New Testament of Jesus Christ salvation.

Justin Adams has explained it (which i could not), as above.

Moses has explained about giants be4 the flood in the book of Genesis, Jude has written about angels who left their estate,

Peter wrote about a group of fallen angels who sinned : 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment,

But how would angels sinned ? NT doesnt tell us, arent they all holy in heaven ? That book said they copulated with women of man, teaching mankind many crafts such as making weapons to battle each other and did all kinds of destruction on earth.

If there is a book which told mankind in details what has happened since Adam until the Deluge, the devil will do its utmost to destroy or alter it.

[Justin Adams]

If you search the Tanach, you will see references to Gibbor etc. Though the Rephaim are never mentioned directly in the same breath as the Nephilim, they are directly connected to the Anakim, whom are connected with the Nephilim.

You just cannot get away from this no matter how hard you dis scriptures.

[iamlamad]

4 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

We do not base our faith in the book of Enoch either, but on the New Testament of Jesus Christ salvation.

Justin Adams has explained it (which i could not), as above.

Moses has explained about giants be4 the flood in the book of Genesis, Jude has written about angels who left their estate,

Peter wrote about a group of fallen angels who sinned : 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment,

But how would angels sinned ? NT doesnt tell us, arent they all holy in heaven ? That book said they copulated with women of man, teaching mankind many crafts such as making weapons to battle each other and did all kinds of destruction on earth.

If there is a book which told mankind in details what has happened since Adam until the Deluge, the devil will do its utmost to destroy or alter it.

The bible teaches us that angels do not "copulate." I will take the bible over any other book.

[Justin Adams]

48 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The bible teaches us that angels do not "copulate." I will take the bible over any other book.

Your theology might say that, but the bible does not. And 'which' bible are you referring to?

ESV and EXB and others say that Gen 6 is pretty clear. Read Psalm 82 and Deut 32 and a whole bunch of other quotes that have not been 'adjusted' to suit Augustine and his ilk. It is so patently obvious to any scholar worth his salt, that even the 'church fathers' made mistakes. But the Judaic Theologians and Qumran Scholars did not. The later scripture publications have much that has been discovered at Qumran and the Hebrew and Aramaic texts plus Greek scripts.

Even the Septuagint was 'adjusted' around 150-200 AD so the 'new' Masoretic text now sports the Judaic ideas that prior translations did not. Hmm. Wonder why?

[Jostler]

The Bible  says angels do not marry.   It makes no reference pro or con to  procreation.  Except the explicit story in Genesis that definitely  says they DID procreate after taking on flesh form.  Whether  procreation  is a normal part of their existence in their own appointed realm or not, I don't know.  I do think there is plenty of evidence that they might, but that's somewhat circumstantial and doesn't rise to  the  level of Biblical "proof" IMO.  The  information may be clearly portrayed in Scripture either way,  but if it is, I haven't had eyes to see it yet.

There's most  certainly a lot going on with His overall plan for the new heavens and the  new earth  than "common" and popular theology  allows for.  I kinda doubt we NEED to know a great deal about that level of  detail about angel's way of life and existence.

He seems to have placed some "distance" between us and our  understanding of angels and their existence and i think i can imagine why.  I think if we knew a great deal about them, way too many would be tempted to worship  these magnificent and powerful creations.  We can see many examples of powerfully dedicated men of God whom angels had to restrain from worshiping them....so  their presence must be overwhelmingly powerful to  the natural human mind and emotions.

On top of that, we do see clear witness that fallen  angels HAVE set themselves up as "gods" in the minds of men down through history, and claimed their "worship".  And are still doing it today.

These "sons of God" the bene eloyhim,  are the  power behind every form of the ancient mystery religions as well as the modern day versions.  including Masonry, Kabbalah....etc.

It's interesting to  note this coming end times battle (and HARVEST time) is fundamentally a contest for worship.   The mark of the  beast is intimately tied to  a REQUIREMENT to worship ...on pain of death.

Just a few things to ponder

[Jayne]

5 hours ago, R. Hartono said:

 

We do not base our faith in the book of Enoch either, but on the New Testament of Jesus Christ salvation.

If there is a book which told mankind in details what has happened since Adam until the Deluge, the devil will do its utmost to destroy or alter it.

You are most definitely putting your faith in the book of Enoch.  Why?  Because you believe it and are passing it off on a public and Christian message board as the truth - just slightly altered in your opinion.  

That's faith, brother.

Just think of the new Christians who read your posts and other believers in the book of Enoch and don't know any better and take it as the truth.  The damage you are doing is great, brother.

If the devil wants to destroy a book, it's the Bible, not the book of Enoch.  The devil crafted the book of Enoch to lie the word of God and lead people astray.

The book of Enoch has NOT BEEN ALTERED.  It's the same as it was just before Christ came to the world.

I have to ask you this and I hope for an honest answer.  Have you read the three books of Enoch - in their entirety - more than once?  Have you compared them line by line with the Bible?  I have.

I don't give two hoots about giants.  I'm talking about the lies.  Gross error. Contradictions to what God teaches in HIS word.  Over and over and over throughout the whole book.

Again, have you read the entire books of Enoch line by line comparing them to God's Word.  Perhaps you should.  Because I'm certainly not going to convince you.  I don't know if it's because I'm old or because I'm female. But I'm making no progress here.

 

[Jayne]

6 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Do not worry unduly. Folk watch all kinds of trash on TV and read stupid books on prophesy. We all have to become scholars. They look at texts and verify what is written by MANY peer reviews. They use their minds as God intended. The church folk have been misled to believe they are incapable of learning from ancient texts. Fear has driven them away from perfectly good material that Yeshua and all the apostles read. If you can verify a text based on critical analysis of word forms, Targums, Hebrew and Greek is it easy to see what is what. Don't let the theologians dictate what you can think. Study and keep studying well, for YOURSELF.

Good gravy, man!!  That's what I am talking about.  You honestly think I shun the books of Enoch because someone told me to?  I've never had one pastor or one Bible teacher speak on these books. and there are hoards of them.

I shun THEM and many more because I have read them for myself - line by line - slowly and with my Bible next to me.  I had an acquaintance who firmly believed the books of Enoch were scripture and tried to get others to believe.

What he was saying sounded wrong to me.  So I read all three books of Enoch - line by line - story by story - and compared it to what the Bible says.  This took a while.

I made my own decision that they were books of complete fiction and were drawing people away from God and his truthful word.

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Jayne