Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

What I wonder about that position, is what is the Biblical evidence, not the conjecture and presumption from assumed inferences!

Speak up! Don't just make inferences! If you can pinpoint the rapture to a point in time by scripture, show us.  I think Paul has done that for us in 1 Thes. 5: the rapture will come a moment before wrath. We find His wrath beginning at the 6th seal - before the 70th week begins. We call that "pretrib." John saw the great crowd too large to number before he started the 70th week. Again, we call that PRE-trib.

[Last Daze]

21 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I will agree, EACH return of Christ will be a singular event: one He comes ONLY to the air; another He comes to the earth and sets His feet down. TWO different comings for TWO different purposes: First He will come FOR His church. Next He will come WITH His church - around 7 years after. 

Yes, when He comes to the Battle of Armageddon, He will certainly come as He left. But when He comes to the air, He will be hidden in a cloud. Different coming for a different purpose. Please explain how "every eye will see Him" when He is hidden in a cloud.

Hidden in a cloud?  Where did you get hidden?  Is there no end to the spinning?

One return of Jesus.

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Hidden in a cloud?  Where did you get hidden?  Is there no end to the spinning?

One return of Jesus.

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note carefully:  "In the air" and "in the clouds. "  THINK: do you see any kind of "touchdown" here? TWO more returns, but the first only to the clouds, NOT to the earth.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 4/28/2019 at 8:02 AM, iamlamad said:

Speak up! Don't just make inferences! If you can pinpoint the rapture to a point in time by scripture, show us.  I think Paul has done that for us in 1 Thes. 5: the rapture will come a moment before wrath. We find His wrath beginning at the 6th seal - before the 70th week begins. We call that "pretrib." John saw the great crowd too large to number before he started the 70th week. Again, we call that PRE-trib.

Well, I am reasonably sure (about 100%) that I have never claimed that I can pinpoint the point in time, how would I do that? The Bible does not say, so why would I?

I do think, that  when Jesus was asked in Matt 24, and parallel passages, that he responded to a question or questions, about chronology. He gave a chronological and detailed answer. They asked: "WHEN will these things be, and WHAT will be the sign of Your coming (not comings) and of the end of the age?"

Jesus answer was VERY chonological as evidenced by the number of times, that He used words like "then", "at that time", "immediatly after" etc. However, what the Bible had not declared, is when it time, He will return, nor does it say He will return twice, or that there is a rapture before the tribulation. You know it, I know it and no one on this forum has ever produced a scripture or passage that says that there is a catching up before the great tribulation of of Matt 24. Show me otherwise, and I will be the first to congratulate you on your excellent ability to discover verses that I was unable to find.

Seems to me therefore, since it is you making the claim that there is a pre-trib rapture, then it is up to you to show us where that is in scripture, instead of where you are filling the gaps with your creative imaginings. What we generally get from people who take the pre-trib position, is a bunch of inferrences, which they cannot prove the validity of, except in their own minds and the minds of like minded people.

Now, the Bible does produce dates, from time to time, in an indirect but eventually testable fashion, like the coming of Messiah related to the time prophecy of years from the going forth of the decree to rebuilt the temple. However, we do not have anything like that, to go by, at the moment. People have tried, but so far they have failed. I recall, for example, when Hal Lindsey predicted the rapture would be in 1988. His "reasoning was, that  since the nation is Israel was re-established in 1948, and that a generation in the Bible (according to Hal) is 40 years, and that Jesus said "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"  that 1948 plus 40 years gets 1988.  Nice try Hal!

Jack Van Impe, Harold Camping, etc. People should not be predicting a date or a when, if the Bible does not declare such, unless they are claiming to be a prophet of God. In such cases, when the fail, they should admit it, repent, and stop trying to predict such things.

I have noted over the years, that it is primarily pre-tribbers (only a hanful thankfully) that attempt to set dates. Ironically, it is also usually pre-tribbers, who say post-trib can't be right, because once the tribulation starts, or more specifically one the sign that Jesus said to watch for in the middle of the 7 years, you would be able to count the days until His return. That would almost be a respectible argument, if Jesus had ever actually said that we would not know day. He never said such a thing, He only said that no one knew 2000 years ago, not that now would ever know.

 

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note carefully:  "In the air" and "in the clouds. "  THINK: do you see any kind of "touchdown" here? TWO more returns, but the first only to the clouds, NOT to the earth.

There's nothing hidden about it:

• Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.  Revelation 1:7

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, Last Daze said:

There's nothing hidden about it:

• Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.  Revelation 1:7

True for THAT coming: not true for this coming:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He will remain hidden in the clouds until He escorts the church to their homes in heaven. This is just one proof there will be TWO more comings.

[Last Daze]

10 hours ago, iamlamad said:

True for THAT coming: not true for this coming:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

He will remain hidden in the clouds until He escorts the church to their homes in heaven. This is just one proof there will be TWO more comings.

There is only one return of Jesus and it happens like this:

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

Do you really think that the disciples stood there for seven years looking up into the sky?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Last Daze said:

There is only one return of Jesus and it happens like this:

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

Do you really think that the disciples stood there for seven years looking up into the sky?

You are half right: there WILL BE a coming exactly as described here. We see it in Rev. 19. But there will also be a coming exactly as described in 1 Thes. 4, where He only comes to the clouds - NO TOUCHDOWN. Go and read John 14. He will come to the clouds, then take His bride to the mansions He has prepared. Read ALL the scripture!

[Last Daze]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are half right: there WILL BE a coming exactly as described here. We see it in Rev. 19. But there will also be a coming exactly as described in 1 Thes. 4, where He only comes to the clouds - NO TOUCHDOWN. Go and read John 14. He will come to the clouds, then take His bride to the mansions He has prepared. Read ALL the scripture!

Fantasy wrapped in a myth built on the sand.

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, Last Daze said:

Fantasy wrapped in a myth built on the sand.

Ya, that pretty much sums up your theories. 

If you wish to be left behind when Jesus comes pretrib - as per 1 thes. 4 & 5, just tell God to let you stay behind. He may well accommodate you. As for the rest of the Bride, they are going to fly out on the first load. I am going to be with them!

Therefore, KEEP watching for HIM: He is coming very soon.