Daniel 11:40-12:1ff. : What Must Happen First?

[iamlamad]

On 4/28/2019 at 11:00 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Seems to me therefore, since it is you making the claim that there is a pre-trib rapture, then it is up to you to show us where that is in scripture, instead of where you are filling the gaps with your creative imaginings. What we generally get from people who take the pre-trib position, is a bunch of inferrences, which they cannot prove the validity of, except in their own minds and the minds of like minded people.

Of course I could say the same thing for posttribbers: their answers are from questionable exegesis and creative imagination. Case in point: that the gathering from both heaven and earth is Paul's rapture, when his rapture gathers ONLY from earth. Case in point, that a gathering AFTER the days of GT is Paul's rapture, when Paul Himself tells us his rapture will come just before (and as the trigger for) the start of the Day of the Lord. John pinpoints that in Revelation as before the entire 70th week. My friend, I see that is PRE-trib. No inferrences, no poor exegesis, just the facts as written.  

Again, I could say the same: posttribbers cannot prove the validity of, except in their own minds and the minds of like minded people. What possible good does such a sentence do?

You do understand, there is no proof that the gathering after the trib is Paul's gathering? Posttribbers have been TRYING to prove it for a very long time, unsuccessfully. 

[Diaste]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

There IS solid evidence to me. But to others, with different preconceptions, they cannot see it.  Keep in mind, PROOF to me is not necessarily proof to others. I think it SHOULD be, but it is not.

First and Second thes. to me is good proof of when the rapture will take place, in relation to other events. In his first letter, Paul tells us that the rapture will come just before the start of the Day of the Lord. Yet, many people read chapters 4 & 5 and just don't see that.  In his second letter, I see the church being what is taken out of the way so that that man of sin can be revealed. Others don't see it.

I think in this case of divine revelation and inspired truth personal conviction is detrimental.

No making stuff up, in other words.

Literal, normal, context.

[Diaste]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Of course I could say the same thing for posttribbers: their answers are from questionable exegesis and creative imagination. Case in point: that the gathering from both heaven and earth is Paul's rapture, when his rapture gathers ONLY from earth. Case in point, that a gathering AFTER the days of GT is Paul's rapture, when Paul Himself tells us his rapture will come just before (and as the trigger for) the start of the Day of the Lord. John pinpoints that in Revelation as before the entire 70th week. My friend, I see that is PRE-trib. No inferrences, no poor exegesis, just the facts as written.  

Again, I could say the same: posttribbers cannot prove the validity of, except in their own minds and the minds of like minded people. What possible good does such a sentence do?

You do understand, there is no proof that the gathering after the trib is Paul's gathering? Posttribbers have been TRYING to prove it for a very long time, unsuccessfully. 

Actually there is timing in two places in scripture and they agree: Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2, after the A of D.

[iamlamad]

On 4/28/2019 at 11:00 PM, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Now, the Bible does produce dates, from time to time, in an indirect but eventually testable fashion, like the coming of Messiah related to the time prophecy of years from the going forth of the decree to rebuilt the temple. However, we do not have anything like that, to go by, at the moment. People have tried, but so far they have failed. I recall, for example, when Hal Lindsey predicted the rapture would be in 1988. His "reasoning was, that  since the nation is Israel was re-established in 1948, and that a generation in the Bible (according to Hal) is 40 years, and that Jesus said "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place"  that 1948 plus 40 years gets 1988.  Nice try Hal!

Jack Van Impe, Harold Camping, etc. People should not be predicting a date or a when, if the Bible does not declare such, unless they are claiming to be a prophet of God. In such cases, when the fail, they should admit it, repent, and stop trying to predict such things.

I have noted over the years, that it is primarily pre-tribbers (only a hanful thankfully) that attempt to set dates. Ironically, it is also usually pre-tribbers, who say post-trib can't be right, because once the tribulation starts, or more specifically one the sign that Jesus said to watch for in the middle of the 7 years, you would be able to count the days until His return. That would almost be a respectible argument, if Jesus had ever actually said that we would not know day. He never said such a thing, He only said that no one knew 2000 years ago, not that now would ever know.

I could not agree more, it is very foolish to set dates. By the way, it was NOT Hal Lindsey that did that.  I think the 7th day people have been the very worst at date setting.  Posttribbers could not for they believe the entire 70th week will come first. Prewrathers could not set days because they cannot even pick a day in the 2520 days of the 70th week that the rapture might happen. 

I can say, However, that the rapture is going to come a moment before the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath. In Revelation that would be at the end of seal 5 when the final martyr has been killed, and before the earthquake at the 6th seal. (the 5th seal is for the martyrs of the church age. the pretrib rapture will end the church age and end church age martyrs.) 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Diaste said:

Actually there is timing in two places in scripture and they agree: Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2, after the A of D.

As I said, poor exegesis. Did you not notice that in 2 thes. 2:3b that the man of sin IS REVEALED?

for that to happen, then the force or power restraining MUST have been removed or taken out of the way in 3a. 

you have a choice: either the apostasia is the gathering (Paul's theme for the passage) or it is a falling away from something. In my mind, the gathering fits much better. 

[Diaste]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

As I said, poor exegesis.

Well, I'm not sure you have the chops to stand in judgment here.

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

for that to happen, then the force or power restraining MUST have been removed or taken out of the way in 3a

You're reading it wrong. What's restraining is the rebellion and the revealing, and what is restrained is the coming of our Lord and the gathering. 

Never notice all the evil in the world? How is the church restraining evil? 

Read it like you would an instruction manual. Don't twist it and look up the words you can't define.

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

you have a choice: either the apostasia is the gathering (Paul's theme for the passage) or it is a falling away from something. In my mind, the gathering fits much better. 

So you define apostasia as gathering? Apostasia has always been defined as defection or revolt or rebellion. 

Are you sure you aren't guilty of the thing of which you assume others are?

 

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

It's very simple: the many verses that speak of His return cannot all be about one return. What the scriptures show us is that He comes next time ONLY to the air, where the Bride of Christ is caught up into the air, and then escorted to the homes He has built for us in glory.  He may not even be seen in this coming, for it is written that He is in a cloud.  The 3rd time He comes every eye will see Him. He will come when it is dark, and be seen as lightning flashing across the sky. As is written, "every eye will see Him." He will come this to to fight the battle of Armageddon. And this time He will come to stay. 

Not all the tap-dancing embellishment in the world will change the simple truth.  Stay awake and be ready.  Everything else will work itself out according to the will of God. 

[iamlamad]

38 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Well, I'm not sure you have the chops to stand in judgment here.

You're reading it wrong. What's restraining is the rebellion and the revealing, and what is restrained is the coming of our Lord and the gathering. 

Never notice all the evil in the world? How is the church restraining evil? 

Read it like you would an instruction manual. Don't twist it and look up the words you can't define.

So you define apostasia as gathering? Apostasia has always been defined as defection or revolt or rebellion. 

Are you sure you aren't guilty of the thing of which you assume others are?

 

Did you just overlook what Paul wrote in verse 6? He wrote, "and now you know what is restraining..."OK, Paul, HOW do we now know?" Why would Paul write that? Of course, because HE JUST TOLD US, but did it in a way that we have to back up and study. He told us in verse 3. As I pointed out, in 3b the man of sin IS REVEALED. yet paul said he CANNOT be until or unless the power restraining Him is taken out of the way.

If we believe Paul in verses 6 thought 8, then we know the man of sin CANNOT be revealed until the power restraining him is taken out of the way. 

As I said before, the ONLY thing in verse 3a that could be understood as something "taken out of the way" is hidden in the Greek word, apostasia. In its simplist form it means a departure or a departing.  You have a choice: an unknown departing from something unknown, or as Paul's THEME for the passage, the departing of the church. 

Which of these will you choose? 

What's restraining is the rebellion and the revealing, and what is restrained is the coming of our Lord and the gathering.  This is myth and pulling everything out of Paul's context. 

It is the REVEALING of the man of sin that is being restrained. Period and end of story. 

So you define apostasia as gathering?   NO! A deparing or departure. The first few translations into English put it as a departing. 

I think you need to spend a LOT more time meditating on this passage.

By the way, look up the Greek word APO (the first part of apostasia) in Strongs and see what he wrote.

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by iamlamad

[WilliamL]

9 hours ago, Diaste said:

On 5/3/2019 at 11:47 AM, WilliamL said:

You are both partially right. The Coming of the Lord will be continuous, but with two separate public great appearances, just like it was in the time of the Exodus:

I have been hearing this for nearly 40 years. In vain I searched for the proof and found none.

I would like to see irrefutable evidence for this that specifically separates any of the scriptures referring to the 2nd coming into two events years apart.

 

7 hours ago, Last Daze said:

I've only ever found the return of Christ in the singular.  It's never the returns of Christ or the comings of Christ.  The SINGULAR return of Jesus is patterned after His ascension as it says in Acts 1.

• They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:11

As far as I'm concerned, It doesn't get any more straightforward than that.  People who try to make that verse say more than what it says deceive themselves.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 describes the Rapture of the faithful, with them being taken up in clouds. It says nothing about Jesus returning to earth at that time. The aftermath of the Church's ascent to heaven, which ascent takes place "immediately after" the heavenly signs and earthly conflagrations of Rev. 6's 6th Seal = Matthew 24:29, is shown in Rev. 7:9-17, where the Raptured saints are standing before the heavenly throne.

Only after the remainder of the Seals, then Trumpets, and then Bowls have been manifested does Jesus RETURN to earth to fight against the assembly of the Beast, False Prophet, and the rebellious nations of the earth. This same order to events occurred in the Exodus, and again in David's and Solomon's day, is shown in my blogs:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1980-the-end-times-and-the-exodus-part-1/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

But to repeat: the Parousia/presence of the Lord in world affairs begins at His coming in the clouds, and continues from that time forth. Just as it did during the Exodus, when the LORD's presence was continuous throughout the whole period from His descent upon Mount Sinai all the way up through the 40 years in the wilderness and then the subsequent conquest of Canaan.

 

 

 

 

[Last Daze]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 describes the Rapture of the faithful, with them being taken up in clouds. It says nothing about Jesus returning to earth at that time.

However, the testimony of the two angels does.  There's no need to complicate something so simply stated.  The return of Jesus, when we are gathered to Him, takes place on the last day when the last trumpet sounds.  To expand a little on the previous quote:

• And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.  They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”  Acts 1:9-11

When Jesus returns, He will appear in the clouds and then descend to earth, just like the angels said.  His ascension took place in one day, and so will His return.  The one who endures to the end will be saved.