Does the story of Lazarus and the Rich man happen after the resurrection ?

[WilliamL]

On 5/20/2019 at 4:12 PM, childoftheking said:

On a side note: Have you ever read or heard where the idea of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man was an add in?

Yes, but there are a whole lot of passages in the Gospels that so-called scholars say were add-ins, including all kinds of statements they claim Jesus never said. The whole conspiracy theory of the Bible thing. But it is impossible for such conspirators to have forged all the manuscripts, and citations of the Church Fathers who quoted them. The textual evidence of the New Testament is solid, with only a few very minor exceptions.

[WilliamL]

18 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

 How about this: 

Verse list:    
1Ti 6:15-16 KJV    Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; WHO ONLY hath IMMORTALITY, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

If Jesus is the only one who currently possesses immortality,  then those saints resurrected at the time of the crucifixion do not.   

Be Blessed, 

The PuP 

Then Moses and Elijah didn't really show up on the Mount of transfiguration with Jesus?

Immortality does not necessarily imply that one has a physical body.

However, the sense of 1 Tim. 6:15 seems to be that Jesus alone holds/possesses [Gr. echo:  to have, own, possess] immortality; that is, has the keys to immortality.

Another passaage to consider is in Rev. 22:

22:8 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”

This was a human being, in heaven, in John's time.

[WilliamL]

10 minutes ago, Da Puppers said:

It is an assumption on your part to say that this fellow servant had an immortal body.   John described him as being an angel.  

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Immortality does not necessarily imply that one has a physical body.

I did not say he had an immortal body. But it is a good assumption. Or do you think Elijah and Enoch are still mortals, even after having been taken up into heaven? (And their bodies with them. Elisha looked for the body and didn't find it.)

The Greek term ἄγγελος simply means messenger. Whether a celestial messenger or a human one is decided by context. The context here indicates a human one

 

[childoftheking]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Yes, but there are a whole lot of passages in the Gospels that so-called scholars say were add-ins, including all kinds of statements they claim Jesus never said. The whole conspiracy theory of the Bible thing. But it is impossible for such conspirators to have forged all the manuscripts, and citations of the Church Fathers who quoted them. The textual evidence of the New Testament is solid, with only a few very minor exceptions.

That is true, but on things that church historians kept, like the changing of Yeshua's words in the 4th century we can bank on, since we know historians before the 4th century kept records of such things.

[OldCoot]

On 5/20/2019 at 4:57 PM, WilliamL said:

Luke's Gospel was more of a collection of remembrances of many different people, not a sequential narrative

And that hits the nail on the head. Luke himself outlined this idea right out of the gate in Luke 1:1-4.

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 5/19/2019 at 3:51 AM, childoftheking said:

In my opinion, it cannot be after the Resurrection because the Saints were still being held.   The Resurrection of Yeshua would have released them, and Lazarus would have been in another realm far away from the rich man to be able to notice him and speak to Father Abraham.

Shalom, childoftheking.

Ummm... no. The "Saints were" NOT "being held!" They were on the FREEDOM side of the "great gulf!" Some ridiculous interpretation of this parable has taught that this all occurred in the center of the earth! Nothing in the parable suggests that! That theory comes from the Greek influence of the word "Hadees!" Don't listen to Greek mythology! You'll get the Scriptures wrong EVERY TIME!!!

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The interesting point of this parable is that it's only found in one of the Gospels (Luke).   Other than the Gospel of John, Matthew, Mark, and Luke seemed to mirror one another.   I've heard some interesting theories of why this parable is only found in 1 of the 4 Gospels.   Some even claim that Yeshua never told this parable.   They claim it was an early sermon in the 2nd Century that was very popular, and was just added to the Bible, since Bibles were hand written in those days.

Well, I wouldn't go THAT far. I believe that the account of Yeshua` stating this parable is accurate, or God wouldn't have preserved it throughout the centuries!

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I have no leg in this argument one way or another, but it does place Abraham and Lazarus in some sort of Purgatory condition.   So I suppose, it could be a Catholic folklore.

Oh, good grief! This is NOT a "Purgatory condition" any more than it is about some "chamber in the center of the earth divided into Hell and Paradise!" The "soul" IS the body! It's an "air-breathing creature!" Since when does a spiritual "soul" (as defined by others) breathe air?!

Look at the two passages "side by side," so to speak:

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nefesh = "air-breathing creature").

Luke 16:22-31 (KJV)

22 ..."And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell (Greek: en too hadee = "in the unseen") he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom (Greek: en tois kolpois autou = "in the pouch/pocket/haven/gulf of-him"). 24 And he cried and said,

"'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 

25 "But Abraham said,

"'Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.'

27 "Then he said,

"'I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.'

29 "Abraham saith unto him,

"'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.'

30 "And he said,

"'Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.'

31 And he said unto him,

"'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.'"

Genesis 2:7 does NOT say that God created "the body of the man"; it says that "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground!" The Hebrew word for "man" here is haaAadaam (masculine, literally, "the Red [Man]"), from which we get the name, "Adam." And, he was made from haa'adaamaah (feminine, literally, "the Red [Ground]"). It also doesn't say that the "soul" was put in the body! It says that the LORD God puffed into his nostrils the puff of life, and the man became a living air-breather! THAT'S what the word "soul" means! Thus, the "soul" - the "air-breather" - doesn't go to "Heaven" when one dies; the "air-breather" CEASES to be an "air-breather" at death! God, however, promised us a RESURRECTION! Indeed, Yeshua` said that HE was the Resurrection and the Life! Paul notes for us in the "Resurrection Chapter," 1 Corinthians 15, that...

1 Corinthians 15:20-24 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:
(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Thus, it was the Messiah ("Christ") ALONE who was said to be the "firstfruits" of the Resurrection. The resurrections of Matthew 27 were still only temporary miracles, as were the healings and resurrections that the disciples performed in the Offer of the Kingdom to Israel (the "Ministry" of the Messiah during His first advent). They would die again in the days, months, and years to follow our Lord's death and Resurrection and Ascension.

Those who belong to the Messiah (which is NOT just the "body of Christ" but also includes the saints [holy ones or singled-out ones] from the time the first prophecy about the Messiah was made in Genesis 3:15 and includes those resurrected temporarily in Matthew 27) were NOT and are NOT going to be Resurrected incorruptible until His (Second) Coming!