Much disagreement with this passage

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, other one said:

there is no time in heaven. it does not follow our linear time flow.

That is the point: Jesus spent 32 years on earth. This was earth time. There was TIME before Jesus rose from the dead, and then there was TIME after He rose from the dead. Before He was not found worthy; after He WAS found worthy. The only difference was TIME: He had to spend 3 days and 3 nights under the earth.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, missmuffet said:

Revelation 5: 1-4

The book is actually a scroll that is given prominence by the fact that it is in the right hand of God. The book is written on both sides of the parchment. The document is made impressive by seven seals fixed on the edges of the  the scroll in such a way that the seals must be successively broken if it is to be unrolled and read. " A strong angel" indicates the importance of the angel. The Angel is not identified by name. " Who is worthy to open the scroll and break the seals" no one in all creation is worthy. It requires the power of God for their revelation. John wept because it seemed like the contents would remain a mystery. This dramatic presentation is designed to impress upon John the importance of the contents and revelation it contains. 

Good explanation; yet if fails to consider that John watched a search take place in heaven, on earth, and under the earth and John then wrote, "no man was found." 

The question is, WHY was no man found in this search?

[iamlamad]

6 hours ago, other one said:

he also had to become man to be able to die....

This is for SURE!

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, JoeCanada said:

Back to the topic;

" I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne"

Why does the Holy Spirit, writing thru John, not identify "Him who sat on the throne"???

Why didn't the H.S. just say "God who sat on the throne"......or "The Father who sat on the throne"

Look at the passages in Rev:

Rev 1:4..... " Grace and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before HIS throne"...... His throne??? Simple English would tell us that "His" is identified with "Him".....they are one and the same.

Rev 1:12-16...."And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands I saw ONE like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in strength"

Compare this to Daniel 7:9...." I kept looking until thrones (multiple) were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat. (singular) His vesture was white like snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames,its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing, and coming out before Him"

Sounds like descriptions of the same person...."white like snow, His head like pure wool "

I Chronicles ..... The Lord God talking with David...." When your days are fulfilled that you must go to be with your fathers, that I will set up one of your descendants after you, who will be one of your sons; and I will establish His kingdom. He shall build for Me a house, and I will establish HIS throne forever."  

You said that both Isaiah and Ezekiel saw the Father on the throne.....

Isa 6:1...."I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple......(5) for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.....

Ezekiel 1:26...." Now above the expanse that was over their heads there was something resembling a throne, like lapis lazuli in appearance, and on that which resembled a throne, high up, was a figure with the appearance of a man."

In the book of Hebrews, we see this scripture: Heb 1:8....." But of the Son He says......Your throne O God is forever and ever"

In the letters to the seven churches, Jesus is described as:

Rev 2:1...."The ONE who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the ONE who walks among the seven lampstands"

Rev 2:8...." The first and the last, who was dead and has come to life"

Rev 2:12...."The ONE who has the sharp two edged sword"

Rev 2:18....."The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet are like burnished bronze"

Rev 3:1...."He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars"

Rev 3:7...." He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, who shuts and no one will open"

Rev 3:14...."The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the "Beginning of the creation of God"

 

In Rev 4:2..... We read John describing what he saw. He see "A THRONE" standing in heaven, and "One" sitting on the throne. John does not say "God sitting on the throne. He says "ONE"

Further, in Rev 4:5..... "And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God......and in the CENTER and around the throne , four living creatures.".........

So, there are 4 living creatures in the CENTER of the throne, and around it.......interesting! 

Rev 4:9....."And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, to Him who lives forever and ever, the 24 elders will fall down before HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying.............. 'Holy ,Holy, Holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, Who was and Who is and Who is to come."............There is only ONE WHO IS COMING.....IT IS JESUS

Rev 5:1...." I saw in the right hand of HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE....."

Rev 5:6......" And I saw BETWEEN the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing.....And He came and took the book out of the right hand of HIM WHO SAT ON THE THRONE......"

Again, John does not identify THE ONE SITTING ON THE THRONE.

Look at what John sees in Rev 4:2:

"Immediately I was in the Spirit, and behold, "A THRONE" was standing in heaven, and ONE sitting on the throne. And HE WHO WAS SITTING was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance"

Right there, we have clues to help us identify "HE WHO WAS SITTING ON THE THRONE"

The last and first sons of Israel were Benjamin and Reuben. Benjamin means "Son of the right hand" (Gen 35:18)....... and Reuben means "The Lord has looked upon my affliction" (Gen 29:32). Therefore, the jasper and sardius stones show that the "ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE" in Heaven is the "Son of the Right Hand, who was afflicted. Jesus does not sit at the right hand of any likeness of the Father. Rather, the Son sits at the right hand of the "power of God". (Luke 22:69)

Jesus calls Himself the "First and the Last" (Rev 1:11). The first and last stones on the breastplate of judgment (Exodus 28:4, 15-21) worn by the high priest, represent Jesus.

I believe that Rev 4:10-11 is the real clincher:

" The twenty four elders will fall down before HIM WHO SITS ON THE THRONE, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne saying......

"WORTHY are YOU, our Lord and our God to receive glory and honor and power; for YOU created all things, and because of Your will they existed and were created"

If this "ONE WHO SITS ON THE THRONE"........"WHO IS WORTHY"........ is really the Father as you say......., then why are the angels searching for ONE WORTHY, just a few verses later?????

 

Jesus says that He is the "I AM"

Isa 9:6 .......calls Him, the Son. the "Everlasting Father, Eternal Father"

John 14:9...."Show us the Father"......."He that has seen me has seen the Father" 

¹³ And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ^[g]ever!”

There are different "worthy's:" 

There is One being worthy of all worship and praise because He is GOD...

There is one being or becoming worthy to take the book and open the seals - because He became the Redeemer of mankind. If God our father was worthy, He would have opened the seals. Jesus would not have had to come and get the book from His hand. 

It is a silly argument because the three are ONE BEING: GOD. 

Yet, only One of the three came to earth to be born of a virgin; only to die. Only One of the three spend 3 days and 3 nights in hades. only One of the three rose from the dead. Only One of the three became the Redeemer. Only ONE of the three became worthy to take the book and open the seals.

[missmuffet]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Good explanation; yet if fails to consider that John watched a search take place in heaven, on earth, and under the earth and John then wrote, "no man was found." 

The question is, WHY was no man found in this search?

You are trying to add to Scripture what is not there. 

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, missmuffet said:

You are trying to add to Scripture what is not there. 

Then ask yourself why John wept much? He gives us a very good reason. i promise, I did not make this up.

KJV:  

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

If "no man was found" then someone was looking.

Edited June 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[missmuffet]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Then ask yourself why John wept much? He gives us a very good reason. i promise, I did not make this up.

KJV:  

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

If "no man was found" then someone was looking.

You are over thinking this. You do know that there is a scripture in the book of Revelation that says it is dangerous to add or delete any of the words in that book. 

[iamlamad]

27 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

You are over thinking this. You do know that there is a scripture in the book of Revelation that says it is dangerous to add or delete any of the words in that book. 

Missmuffet, I am only going by what it says. I am not guilty of adding, but some may be guilty of taking away.

Do you not believe this strong angel was looking for someone worthy to open the book? 

Do you not believe there was a period of time when NO man was found anywhere that could open this book?

Do you think John had no reason to weep? 

What say you: what time is it at the last verse of chapter 5?  That is, what time is John showing us?

 

If I am overthinking, perhaps you can set us all straight.

Edited June 10, 2019 by iamlamad

[missmuffet]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Missmuffet, I am only going by what it says. I am not guilty of adding, but some may be guilty of taking away.

Do you not believe this strong angel was looking for someone worthy to open the book? 

Do you not believe there was a period of time when NO man was found anywhere that could open this book?

Do you think John had no reason to weep? 

What say you: what time is it at the last verse of chapter 5?  That is, what time is John showing us?

 

If I am overthinking, perhaps you can set us all straight.

God puts in Scripture what He wants us to see. If it is not there He does not want us to have knowledge of it.....period.

[angels4u]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:11 PM, Cletus said:

I am not saying you are wrong about this, I dont know if there is time there or not.  I saw the city in a dream and I saw no clock... sure didnt see a sun dial.  lol. 

I am curious tho how you came to this conclusion, or why you say this.  I have heard others say this and am curious how people come to this conclusion.  I have heard others say God is outside of time. 

the reason I ask this is because some cultures, such as some of the hebrews, do not look at time as linear, but an upward spiral that leads up to something/a climax. 

Quote

I saw the city in a dream and I saw no clock..

I dreamed of a city called Glory, So bright and so fair. When I entered the gates I cried, "Holy" The angels all met me there: They carried me from mansion to mansion, And oh the sights I saw, But I said, "I want to see Jesus, The One who died for all."  Then I bowed on my knees and cried, "Holy, Holy, Holy." I clapped my hands and sang, "Glory, Glory to the Son of God." I bowed on my knees and cried, "Holy, Holy, Holy." Then I clapped my hands and sang, "Glory, Glory to the Son of God." As I entered the gates of that city, My loved ones all knew me well. They took me down the streets of Heaven; Such scenes were too many to tell; I saw Abraham, Jacob and Isaac Talked with Mark, and Timothy But I said, "I want to see Jesus, 'Cause He's the One who died for me."  Then I bowed on my knees and cried, "Holy, Holy, Holy." I clapped my hands and sang, "Glory, Glory, Glory." I clapped my hands and sang, "Glory" I clapped my hands and sang, "Glory" I clapped my hands and sang, "Glory" "Glory to the Son of God" I sang, "Glory to the Son of God."