Does “Counted Worthy to Escape” Prove the Pretrib. Rapture?

[JLB]

1 hour ago, OldCoot said:

So then, you are saying that being considered righteous is a works game?   Can't buy the idea. 

 

Not a game.

 

Not by works, either.

 

By practicing righteousness. 

 

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

 

We have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness.

 

A new Born again natured empowered by the Spirit, so that we can do what we could not before; Practice Righteousness.

 

 

 JLB 

 

 

[OldCoot]

40 minutes ago, JLB said:

 

Not a game.

 

Not by works, either.

 

By practicing righteousness. 

 

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

 

We have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness.

 

A new Born again natured empowered by the Spirit, so that we can do what we could not before; Practice Righteousness.

 

 

 JLB 

 

 

Elevating works or acting rightly and making it a condition of justification of the individual is adding to the Gospel.  Justification, our reconciliation to Yahweh is by faith and trust in the atonement of Yeshua via His death, burial, and resurrection.   That is the only way anyone is worthy.  Anything added to that is a corruption of the Gospel.  The gift of that justification is eternal life.  If it can be lost, then it was not eternal.

Paul was quite clear to the Corinthians that the man who was in grievous sin by shacking up with his step mother should be shunned from the assembly, but Paul also was clear that the man's justification was not in question.  

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 (NKJV) It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

Back on topic.  Anyone who has been justified by the death, burial, and resurrection of Yeshua and by faith in that alone, is worthy of catching the train ride out of here.   Their ticket is punched and their seat is reserved.

 

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

While there are many passages that support the pre-trib position, there is one that truly nails it for me.  2 Thessalonians 2.

The context of the passage is laid out in verse one by Paul... our assembling or gathering to Yeshua.

2 Thessalonians 2:1(1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him

The Thessalonians had been persuaded by some word or fake letter that they were in the day of the Lord. If they had been taught they would go thru the day of the Lord, then why would they be upset?

2 Thessalonians 2:2(1599 Geneva Bible) That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.

Paul then reminded them that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the departure happens, and after that, the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3(1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

And the Geneva Bible is not the only one to say "departing". Every English version prior to the KJV also used departing, departure, etc. And even some newer translations today use it. The Hebrew Names Bible is one. The Wuest Expanded Translation is another.

And many Greek scholars of the last two centuries also concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2 has simply "departure" as its meaning. Anything else is adding to the text. And given the context is our gathering to the Lord from verse one, then departure as in removal is the only interpretation that maintains grammatical integrity.

As Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, has stated it, "2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the pre-trib.... game, set, match."

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[JLB]

3 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

You need to reread old coots question.  Obeying the Gospel is not the answer.  What makes Israel worthy?  What makes us worthy?  To obey the Gospel is an aftermath, Not a pretext.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

1 hour ago, JLB said:

 

Please post the scripture that says we are worthy, as unregenerate unbelievers to believe or obey the Gospel.

We are not born again, before we believe or obey the Gospel, if that is the point you are trying to make.

 

 JLB 

 

 

 

Same question to you. 

[JLB]

39 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

Elevating works or acting rightly and making it a condition of justification of the individual is adding to the Gospel.

 

Presenting the truth of the scriptures which teach us the obedience of faith is called speaking the truth.  

 

Only those who who obey the Gospel are justified as the Bible plainly teaches. 

 

Again, as I said before, and say again...

 

Not the works of the law.

Not goods works.

Not works that earn. 

 

The “work” or action of obedience. 

This is called the “obedience of faith”.

 

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21

 

-  justified by works, when he had offered Isaac

 

Only those who obey the Gospel are saved. 

 

 

JLB 

[JLB]

36 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

While there are many passages that support the pre-trib position, there is one that truly nails it for me.  2 Thessalonians 2.

The context of the passage is laid out in verse one by Paul... our assembling or gathering to Yeshua.

2 Thessalonians 2:1(1599 Geneva Bible) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him

The Thessalonians had been persuaded by some word or fake letter that they were in the day of the Lord. If they had been taught they would go thru the day of the Lord, then why would they be upset?

2 Thessalonians 2:2(1599 Geneva Bible) That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.

Paul then reminded them that the Day of the Lord will not begin until the departure happens, and after that, the man of sin is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:3(1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

And the Geneva Bible is not the only one to say "departing". Every English version prior to the KJV also used departing, departure, etc. And even some newer translations today use it. The Hebrew Names Bible is one. The Wuest Expanded Translation is another.

And many Greek scholars of the last two centuries also concur that apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2 has simply "departure" as its meaning. Anything else is adding to the text. And given the context is our gathering to the Lord from verse one, then departure as in removal is the only interpretation that maintains grammatical integrity.

As Dr. Andy Woods, President of Chafer Theological Seminary, has stated it, "2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the pre-trib.... game, set, match."

 

The are scriptures in the Bible that teach us there is a pre trib  rapture.

 

The Resurrection and Rapture occur at His coming. 

 

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.   1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

Here we see the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming. 

 

Case Closed. 

 

 

JLB 

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, JLB said:

A new Born again natured empowered by the Spirit, so that we can do what we could not before; Practice Righteousness.

For how long? Practice for 1 second and then physically die, or Practice for 5 years and then physically die, or Practice for 25 years and then physically die.  The crutch of the Gospel can be said in one or two sentences. Repent, and follow Me.  Death bed conversion, or life long practice.  Either one will do.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OldCoot]

42 minutes ago, JLB said:

 

The are scriptures in the Bible that teach us there is a pre trib  rapture.

 

The Resurrection and Rapture occur at His coming. 

 

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.   1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

Here we see the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming. 

 

Case Closed. 

 

 

JLB 

 

yes, at the appearance of Yeshua, not the physical returning upon the earth.  The scripture, both OT and NT support that the redeemed... dead and living... are  called out, removed, and protected in the tabernacle of Yahweh per King David prior to the tribulation period or time of Jacob's trouble per Jeremiah and Isaiah.

As the bride is called out to the groom when He comes to get her in the Hebrew wedding oft referenced by Yeshua, those alive and dead that make up the redeemed of Yeshua will be called out from the earth to join Him in the air as Paul wrote  to us, and we will be hidden in the rooms provided by Him according to John 14 and Isaiah 26... before the tribulation period.

The blessed hope.

Edited June 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[Montana Marv]

2 hours ago, JLB said:

 

Please post the scripture that says we are worthy, as unregenerate unbelievers to believe or obey the Gospel.

We are not born again, before we believe or obey the Gospel, if that is the point you are trying to make.

 

 JLB 

 

Where are you coming from?  It is the Holy Spirit who draws us to Salvation in Christ.  Where were you before Christ. Unregenerate, Unrepentant, Wild by Nature; And yet Christ died for even you in this state of disrespect.  We are His chosen, and if His chosen we are worthy to become saved, before we were saved.  Before you were in your mothers womb, I knew you.  I am the potter and you are the clay.  I make some vessels for honor, and some vessels for dishonor.  We are not in Charge.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[JLB]

4 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

For how long? Practice for 1 second and then physically die, or Practice for 5 years and then physically die, or Practice for 25 years and then physically die.  The crutch of the Gospel can be said in one or two sentences. Repent, and follow Me.  Death bed conversion, or life long practice.  Either one will do.

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Yes, the thief on the cross and people who call upon the Lord at the moment of death, are examples of the exception, not the rule of everyday life.

 

Did you read what Paul wrote?

 

of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

These are not dead bed conversions, but Paul has warned once and was now warning them again...that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Those Christians who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Please don’t think for a moment, that we as born again Christians, who practice unrighteousness are somehow righteous.

 

Learn to walk according to the Spirit, and practice the truth , practice righteousness, practice loving God and loving your neighbor.

 

This is the lifestyle of righteousness.

 

 

JLB