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R. Hartono

Does “Counted Worthy to Escape” Prove the Pretrib. Rapture?

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Well, y'all can worry about what it all means because before that end time period begins, I am out of here.   Both OT and NT have many passages that talk of the redeemed being removed prior to that man of sin / lawless one / antichrist being revealed.  But what is in the OT, to me, is a lot more eye opening and "in your face" on the matter.

The only way to be worthy is to be redeemed by Yeshua.  His brag to the Father is that all the Father gave Him he has never lost one.  No works is going to make one worthy.  No partial rapture stuff involved either.  No support for that idea.   Either you got your redemption train ticket issued by Yeshua Hisself and you go , or you are not redeemed and you hang around and face the music.

Just like the Gospel, it is simple.  And those who are new to all this needn't fret over it.  Just trust the Lord.

Consider the highlighted words above. 

Rev 21:8...  whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone

Suppose someone is born again but is at the same time a liar? Suppose he or she has lied so much they no longer (supposing that at one time they did) ask for forgiveness. Which verse supersedes the other?

Did you ever consider this verse? 

 

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
 
Suppose someone is born again but makes no effort to crucify his or her flesh  so makes NO EFFORT to live in holiness? 
 
Are there verses that supersede Hebrews 12:14? 
 
What am I saying? We cannot cherry pick favorite verses: each verse must be consider with all other verses. The truth is, born again people DO (have) ended up in hell.  the list could go on: Thieves that are born again won't be raptured. Why? They are not qualified for heaven. Thieves don't go to heaven. Born again people holding unforgiveness will not be raptured. They will be left behind.  So there IS support for that idea. 
Edited by iamlamad
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Suppose someone is born again but is at the same time a liar? Suppose he or she has lied so much they no longer (supposing that at one time they did) ask for forgiveness. Which verse supersedes the other?

Did you ever consider this verse? 

I sure have!  Along with this passage.....

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

But having a different eschatological view is not lying.  It is just an alternative view. Lying is a conscious act to deceive when one knows that what they are saying is not the truth.   Each of us sees scripture from a different angle.  We each glean particular nuggets from the scripture. We are not robots, just parts of the same body.  With no part more important than another.  The ultimate equality before the Lord.

There are certain doctrines that cannot be deviated from... the nature of God, the Gospel, the deity of Yeshua, the virgin birth, the death/burial/resurrection for our justification, etc, but eschatology is not one of them.   Those that cannot discuss eschatological issues without getting all worked up into a froth and making slanderous accusations against others (oh, that is a sin also) need to step back and check what relationship they have with the Lord.  Really, if they allow themselves to get down to that level in a discussion, it usually exhibits a lack of surety in the position they hold so instead of bolstering it they instead see the need to denigrate others.   But I only had 1 year of psychology and sociology in college so it is outside my pay grade to help them.

Edited by OldCoot

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26 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Are you familiar with the term “inherit the kingdom of God”?

 

 

 

JLB

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1 hour ago, JLB said:

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Are you familiar with the term “inherit the kingdom of God”?

 

 

 

JLB

 

Sure! And are you familiar with "such were some of you?" 

Not really sure where you are trying to go here.  Sin is sin.  All of us sin from time to time.  Sometime the same sin as before.  The key word is "practice".... those that have no intention of letting the Lord clean them up and never did.  The passage you are referencing does not state that believers are who Paul has in view.   It is merely a solid statement about the works of the flesh, and there isn't any degree of severeness in their classification.  All sin is rebellion.  

One has to balance the reference you have with other scripture from another Apostle....

1 John 1:8-10 (NKJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I sure have!  Along with this passage.....

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

But having a different eschatological view is not lying.  It is just an alternative view. Lying is a conscious act to deceive when one knows that what they are saying is not the truth.   Each of us sees scripture from a different angle.  We each glean particular nuggets from the scripture. We are not robots, just parts of the same body.  With no part more important than another.  The ultimate equality before the Lord.

There are certain doctrines that cannot be deviated from... the nature of God, the Gospel, the deity of Yeshua, the virgin birth, the death/burial/resurrection for our justification, etc, but eschatology is not one of them.   Those that cannot discuss eschatological issues without getting all worked up into a froth and making slanderous accusations against others (oh, that is a sin also) need to step back and check what relationship they have with the Lord.  Really, if they allow themselves to get down to that level in a discussion, it usually exhibits a lack of surety in the position they hold so instead of bolstering it they instead see the need to denigrate others.   But I only had 1 year of psychology and sociology in college so it is outside my pay grade to help them.

The truth is, God expects liars to quit lying once they are born again.  

God expects fornicators to quit when they are born again.

God expects His children to forgive just as He forgave those who nailed Him to the cross.

I only read what Jesus said and believe it. "forgive us our debts AS we forgive our debtors."

God will walk through hell (so to speak) with a believer when is trapped in sin and wants out desperately: but when a believer begins to justify his or her sins  - and quits asking forgiveness, they are walking on dangerous ground. It is the truth of scripture. 

The ultra-grace gospel of today is NOT the gospel Jesus or Paul taught.

Edited by iamlamad
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45 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

 

Sure! And are you familiar with "such were some of you?" 

Not really sure where you are trying to go here.  Sin is sin.  All of us sin from time to time.  Sometime the same sin as before.  The key word is "practice".... those that have no intention of letting the Lord clean them up and never did.  The passage you are referencing does not state that believers are who Paul has in view.   It is merely a solid statement about the works of the flesh, and there isn't any degree of severeness in their classification.  All sin is rebellion.  

One has to balance the reference you have with other scripture from another Apostle....

1 John 1:8-10 (NKJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

"Balance" with other scriptures! I think you nailed it. One cannot cherry pick scriptures. 

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15 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Sure! And are you familiar with "such were some of you?" 

 

Yes. Exactly, Paul is reminding them what the Lord delivered them from and not to go back to that lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh.

 

Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

Paul teaches us how to avoid fulfilling the lustful desires of the flesh.

 

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

 

 

He says it this way to the Ephesians  -

 

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

 

  • because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

 

 

Paul warns the Church, not to partake of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.

 

 

 JLB 

 

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1 hour ago, JLB said:

Yes. Exactly, Paul is reminding them what the Lord delivered them from and not to go back to that lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh.

Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Paul teaches us how to avoid fulfilling the lustful desires of the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

He says it this way to the Ephesians  -

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

  • because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul warns the Church, not to partake of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.

 JLB 

Very Good, JLB  It is TRUTH.

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55 minutes ago, JLB said:

 

Yes. Exactly, Paul is reminding them what the Lord delivered them from and not to go back to that lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh.

 

Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

Paul teaches us how to avoid fulfilling the lustful desires of the flesh.

 

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

 

 

He says it this way to the Ephesians  -

 

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

 

  • because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

 

 

Paul warns the Church, not to partake of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.

 

 

 JLB 

 

I guess we are drifting here.

What is it that makes one worthy of redemption and become righteous?  Only the blood of Yeshua.    The unrighteous don't inherit the kingdom, but those who are under the blood of Yeshua are the righteous.  

When Paul chastises the Corinthians for allowing the guy who was shacking up with his step mother to remain in their assembly and they should disfellowship him, never once says that he is no longer one of the redeemed.  Only that he should be disfellowshipped so that his physical being would be turned over to Satan but his soul would be saved......

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NKJV) deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And to take that further, the day of the Lord will not begin until the departure  or gathering to the Lord occurs per Paul in his second letter to the Thessalonians, which is supported by Isaiah in conjunction with Daniel in the OT.  

There is no license to sin.  All, including the redeemed, sin and should turn from it.  But the security of the believer is assured.  

2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV) If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself

 

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1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

What is it that makes one worthy of redemption and become righteous?  

 

Obeying the Gospel. 

 

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:22-23

 

  • Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible,

 

 

 

JLB

 

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