Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
R. Hartono

Does “Counted Worthy to Escape” Prove the Pretrib. Rapture?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Suppose someone is born again but is at the same time a liar? Suppose he or she has lied so much they no longer (supposing that at one time they did) ask for forgiveness. Which verse supersedes the other?

Did you ever consider this verse? 

I sure have!  Along with this passage.....

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

But having a different eschatological view is not lying.  It is just an alternative view. Lying is a conscious act to deceive when one knows that what they are saying is not the truth.   Each of us sees scripture from a different angle.  We each glean particular nuggets from the scripture. We are not robots, just parts of the same body.  With no part more important than another.  The ultimate equality before the Lord.

There are certain doctrines that cannot be deviated from... the nature of God, the Gospel, the deity of Yeshua, the virgin birth, the death/burial/resurrection for our justification, etc, but eschatology is not one of them.   Those that cannot discuss eschatological issues without getting all worked up into a froth and making slanderous accusations against others (oh, that is a sin also) need to step back and check what relationship they have with the Lord.  Really, if they allow themselves to get down to that level in a discussion, it usually exhibits a lack of surety in the position they hold so instead of bolstering it they instead see the need to denigrate others.   But I only had 1 year of psychology and sociology in college so it is outside my pay grade to help them.

Edited by OldCoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Are you familiar with the term “inherit the kingdom of God”?

 

 

 

JLB

  • Praise God! 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JLB said:

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Are you familiar with the term “inherit the kingdom of God”?

 

 

 

JLB

 

Sure! And are you familiar with "such were some of you?" 

Not really sure where you are trying to go here.  Sin is sin.  All of us sin from time to time.  Sometime the same sin as before.  The key word is "practice".... those that have no intention of letting the Lord clean them up and never did.  The passage you are referencing does not state that believers are who Paul has in view.   It is merely a solid statement about the works of the flesh, and there isn't any degree of severeness in their classification.  All sin is rebellion.  

One has to balance the reference you have with other scripture from another Apostle....

1 John 1:8-10 (NKJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I sure have!  Along with this passage.....

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

But having a different eschatological view is not lying.  It is just an alternative view. Lying is a conscious act to deceive when one knows that what they are saying is not the truth.   Each of us sees scripture from a different angle.  We each glean particular nuggets from the scripture. We are not robots, just parts of the same body.  With no part more important than another.  The ultimate equality before the Lord.

There are certain doctrines that cannot be deviated from... the nature of God, the Gospel, the deity of Yeshua, the virgin birth, the death/burial/resurrection for our justification, etc, but eschatology is not one of them.   Those that cannot discuss eschatological issues without getting all worked up into a froth and making slanderous accusations against others (oh, that is a sin also) need to step back and check what relationship they have with the Lord.  Really, if they allow themselves to get down to that level in a discussion, it usually exhibits a lack of surety in the position they hold so instead of bolstering it they instead see the need to denigrate others.   But I only had 1 year of psychology and sociology in college so it is outside my pay grade to help them.

The truth is, God expects liars to quit lying once they are born again.  

God expects fornicators to quit when they are born again.

God expects His children to forgive just as He forgave those who nailed Him to the cross.

I only read what Jesus said and believe it. "forgive us our debts AS we forgive our debtors."

God will walk through hell (so to speak) with a believer when is trapped in sin and wants out desperately: but when a believer begins to justify his or her sins  - and quits asking forgiveness, they are walking on dangerous ground. It is the truth of scripture. 

The ultra-grace gospel of today is NOT the gospel Jesus or Paul taught.

Edited by iamlamad
  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

 

Sure! And are you familiar with "such were some of you?" 

Not really sure where you are trying to go here.  Sin is sin.  All of us sin from time to time.  Sometime the same sin as before.  The key word is "practice".... those that have no intention of letting the Lord clean them up and never did.  The passage you are referencing does not state that believers are who Paul has in view.   It is merely a solid statement about the works of the flesh, and there isn't any degree of severeness in their classification.  All sin is rebellion.  

One has to balance the reference you have with other scripture from another Apostle....

1 John 1:8-10 (NKJV) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

"Balance" with other scriptures! I think you nailed it. One cannot cherry pick scriptures. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Sure! And are you familiar with "such were some of you?" 

 

Yes. Exactly, Paul is reminding them what the Lord delivered them from and not to go back to that lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh.

 

Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

Paul teaches us how to avoid fulfilling the lustful desires of the flesh.

 

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

 

 

He says it this way to the Ephesians  -

 

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

 

  • because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

 

 

Paul warns the Church, not to partake of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.

 

 

 JLB 

 

  • This is Worthy 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JLB said:

Yes. Exactly, Paul is reminding them what the Lord delivered them from and not to go back to that lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh.

Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Paul teaches us how to avoid fulfilling the lustful desires of the flesh.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

He says it this way to the Ephesians  -

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

  • because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

Paul warns the Church, not to partake of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.

 JLB 

Very Good, JLB  It is TRUTH.

  • Thumbs Up 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, JLB said:

 

Yes. Exactly, Paul is reminding them what the Lord delivered them from and not to go back to that lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh.

 

Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

  • those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

 

Paul teaches us how to avoid fulfilling the lustful desires of the flesh.

 

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16

 

 

He says it this way to the Ephesians  -

 

For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:5-7

 

  • because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.

 

 

Paul warns the Church, not to partake of God’s wrath, along with the sons of disobedience.

 

 

 JLB 

 

I guess we are drifting here.

What is it that makes one worthy of redemption and become righteous?  Only the blood of Yeshua.    The unrighteous don't inherit the kingdom, but those who are under the blood of Yeshua are the righteous.  

When Paul chastises the Corinthians for allowing the guy who was shacking up with his step mother to remain in their assembly and they should disfellowship him, never once says that he is no longer one of the redeemed.  Only that he should be disfellowshipped so that his physical being would be turned over to Satan but his soul would be saved......

1 Corinthians 5:5 (NKJV) deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

And to take that further, the day of the Lord will not begin until the departure  or gathering to the Lord occurs per Paul in his second letter to the Thessalonians, which is supported by Isaiah in conjunction with Daniel in the OT.  

There is no license to sin.  All, including the redeemed, sin and should turn from it.  But the security of the believer is assured.  

2 Timothy 2:13 (NKJV) If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, OldCoot said:

What is it that makes one worthy of redemption and become righteous?  

 

Obeying the Gospel. 

 

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:22-23

 

  • Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible,

 

 

 

JLB

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, JLB said:

 

Obeying the Gospel. 

 

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. 1 Peter 1:22-23

 

  • Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible,

 

 

 

JLB

 

So then, you are saying that being considered righteous is a works game?   Can't buy the idea. 

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Habakkuk 2:4 (NKJV) “Behold the proud,
His soul is not upright in him;
But the just shall live by his faith.

Paul builds much of his arguments in several letters upon Habakkuk 2:4.

It was Habakkuk 2:4 that also led Martin Luther to realize that salvation is by faith alone and that started the reformation.

Edited by OldCoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...