Profile of The Man

[Jonathan Dane]

10 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Jews will never accept a non-Israeli Messiah.

 What will happen is not what we humanly think, but what was prophesied and written in God's Word.

Patriarch Jacob prophesied from what seed and when the serpent, the son of perdition, would be born:  Gen.49:v.1&17 - 1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.    -  Jacob prophesied the things that will happen exactly in our days, in these last days of the Dispensation of Grace   -    

v. 17 -  Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.    -    whoever believes, believe: this MAN, the MAN of sin, the son of perdition, was already born in Israel in the city of Jerusalem, he is among us the inhabitants of the earth preparing his manifestation as the Messiah,

and in fulfilment of another prophecy,  "he will oppose and exalte himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thes.2:v.4)

This terrible vision of the Patriach Jacob took him perplex and astonished in such manner that he exclaimed : "I wait for thy salvation, O Lord ! " v.18

There are many prophecies about this that is one of the most terrible event since the beginning, and was reserved for to be the great signal of end of the world and preceeding the return of the Lord.  

"Jews will never accept a non-Israeli Messiah."

True. But the apostate State of Israel would accept a Gentile person to save them from annihilation. Sorry this is so short. I will be replying at length to DrChristian in response to his latest reply to me. Hopefully later today. Please check it out.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Jonathan Dane

[Jonathan Dane]

On 8/8/2019 at 1:38 PM, dhchristian said:

Perhaps you ignored this before, I will repost it again...

The Antichrist will be a Jew, though his connections, his governmental position, his sphere of dominion, will by no means confine him to the Israelitish people. It should, however, be pointed out that there is no express declaration of Scripture which says in so many words that this daring Rebel will be "a Jew;" nevertheless, the hints given are so plain, the conclusions which must be drawn from certain statements of Holy Writ are so obvious, and the requirements of the case are so inevitable, that we are forced to believe he must be a Jew. To these hints', conclusions' and requirements' we now turn.

1. In Ezek.21:25-27 we read: "and thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end, Thus saith the Lord God; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high. I will overturn, overturn, overturn it: and it shall be no more until he comes whose right it is, and I will give it him." The dispensational place and scope of this passage, is not hard to determine. The time-mark is given in v.25: it is "when iniquity shall have an end." It is the End-Time which is in view, then, the End of the Age, when "the transgressors are come to the full" (Dan.8:23 and cf.11:36 -- "Till the indignation be accomplished"). At that time Israel shall have a Prince, a Prince who is crowned (v.26), and a Prince whose day is said to be come when "iniquity shall have an end." Now, as to who this Prince is, there is surely no room for doubt. The only Prince whom Israel will have in that day, is the Son of Perdition, here termed their Prince because he will be masquerading as Messiah the Prince (see Dan.9:25)! Another unmistakable mark of identification is here given, in that he is expressly denominated "thou, profane wicked Prince" -- assuredly, it is the Man of Sin who is here in view, that impious one who shall "oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God." But what should be noted particularly, is, that this profane and wicked character is here named "Prince of Israel." He must, therefore, be of the Abrahamic stock, a Jew!

2. In Ezek.28:2-10 a remarkable description is given us of the Antichrist under the figure of "the Prince of Tyrus," just as in vv.12-19 we have another most striking delineation of Satan under the figure of "the king of Tyrus." In a later chapter we hope to show that, beyond a doubt, it is the Antichrist who is in view in the first section of this chapter. There is only one thing that we would now point out from this passage: in v.10 it is said of him "Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised," which is a very strong hint that he ought not to die the deaths of the "uncircumcised" because he belonged to the Circumcision! Should it be said that this verse cannot apply to the Antichrist because he will be destroyed by Christ Himself at His coming, the objection is very easily disposed of by a reference to Rev.13:14, which tells of the Antichrist being wounded to death by a sword and rising from the dead -- which is prior to his ultimate destruction at the hands of the Saviour.

3. In Dan.11:36, 37 we are told, "And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers." This passage, it is evident, refers to and describes none other than the coming Antichrist. But what we wish to call special attention to is the last sentence quoted -- "The God of his fathers." What are we to understand by this expression? Why, surely, that he is a Jew, an Israelite, and that his fathers after the flesh were Abraham, Isaac and Jacob -- for such is the invariable meaning of "the fathers" throughout the Old Testament Scriptures.

4. In Matt.12:43-45 we have another remarkable scripture which will be considered briefly, in a later section of this chapter, when we shall endeavor to show that "The Unclean Spirit" here is none other than the Son of Perdition, and that the "house" from which he goes out and into which he returns, is the Nation of Israel. If this can be established, then we have another proof that he will be a Jew, for this "house," which is Israel, is here termed by Antichrist "my house." Just as Solomon was of "the House of David," so Antichrist shall be of the House of Israel.

5. In John 5:43 we have a further word which helps us to fix the nationality of this coming One. In speaking of the false messiah, the Lord Jesus referred to him as follows, "Another shall come in his own name." In the Greek there are four different words all translated "Another" in our English versions. One of them is employed but once, and a second but five times, so these need not detain us now. The remaining two are used frequently, and with a clear distinction between them. The first "allos" signifies "another" of the same kind or genus -- see Matt.10:23; 13:24; 26:71, etc. The second, "heteros," means "another" of a totally different kind, -- see Mark 16:12; Luke 14:31; Acts 7:18; Rom.7:23. Now the striking thing is that the word used by our Lord in John 5:43 is "allos," another of the same genus, not "heteros," another of a different order. Christ, the Son of Abraham, the Son of David, had presented Himself to Israel, and they rejected Him; but "another" of the same Abrahamic stock should come to them, and him they would "receive." If the coming Antichrist were to be a Gentile, the Lord would have employed the word "heteros;" the fact that He used "allos" shows that he will be a Jew.

6. The very name "Antichrist" argues strongly his Jewish nationality. This title "Antichrist" has a double significance. It means that he will be one who shall be "opposed" to Christ, one who will be His enemy. But it also purports that he will be a mock Christ, an imitation Christ, a pro-Christ, a pseudo Christ. It intimates that he will ape Christ. He will pose as the real Messiah of Israel. In such case he must be a Jew.

7. This mock Christ will be "received" by Israel. The Jews will be deceived by Him. They will believe that he is indeed their long-expected Messiah. They will accept him as such. Proofs of this will be furnished in a later chapter. But if this pseudo Christ succeeds in palming himself off on the Jews as their true Messiah he must be a Jew, for it is unthinkable that they would be deceived by any Gentile.

Ere passing to the next point, we may add, that it was the common belief among Christians during the first four centuries A.D., that the Antichrist would come from the tribe of Dan. Whether this will be the case or no, we do not know. Gen.49:17, 18 may have ultimate reference to this Son of Perdition. Certainly Dan is the most mysterious of all the twelve tribes.

https://biblehub.com/library/pink/the_antichrist/i_the_antichrist_will_be.htm

That being said, Your theory fails to take into account an obvious criticism of why Donald Trump cannot be the AC. The country he is from is a superpower, and not a "little horn" rising in the midst. You have yet to address this. 

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. 23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. (From Daniel 7:7-8, and 21-26)

In case you haven't figured it out, on forums such as this, You present your case before people, and their job is to agree with it, or reject it and give you reasons why they reject it. Here are a multiplicity of Reasons apart from current events with regard to Noahidism that I reject your theory, and speculation. I am sorry that you cannot handle criticism, as this is endemic of a bigger problem that you need to work on. I reject your theory on the basis of common sense. The antichrist, is going to have an awful hard time convincing any of the elect that he is the messiah if he is not a Jew. I am not talking about being anointed, But about the KINGLY anointing which in scripture is an all together different concept. So Yes scripture says Cyrus was anointed, But not THE Messiah.  In fact there are only two times in the OT that the word masiyach is used as a proper name, and both times in 9:24-27 discussing the 70 sevens. 

As smart and as wise as you think you are, your post simply put makes no common sense... Don't feel bad though, a lot of people are well educated and lack common sense, so you are not alone. Not being able to handle the criticism is another matter, as this is the sign of a narcissist.

Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. (Proverbs 9:8-9)

 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

God Bless.

 

(Note: I will refer to the wicked endtime ruler as "AC". As agreed, he is referred to by many names throughout Scripture. Any and all CAPS are for emphasis only, not volume.)

You admit that there are no Scripture passages that explicitly indicate that the wicked end time ruler is a Jew. That's a start. Granted, that does not prove he is a Gentile. There is no explicit verse that says God is Triune, yet I hope we are all in agreement that He is. That said, the Trinity can be established with certainty by comparing Scripture with Scripture. Whether that holds true for scriptural support for a Jewish AC remains to be seen. In the case of the Trinity, we have solid and explicit passages of Scripture that unequivocally state that the Son and Holy Spirit are Divine (Jehovah God). We also have explicit texts that state God is One. The concept of three persons in one God is not an easy concept to grasp, but it is a logical conclusion from a comparison of relevant Bible passages. I know you are aware of this. This is merely for foundation.

I believe your theory is as follows: Since the Messiah of the Jews must be Jewish, it follows that the Antichrist will be Jewish since he is the "false" Messiah who comes as one "in place of" Christ or "Anti"-Christ. If somebody is going to impersonate Elvis, they better have dyed black hair and sideburns. Likewise, if the false Messiah is to pull one over on the Jews, he must be able to prove his Jewish identity. There's no way in hell they would accept an infidel to be their Messiah. On its face, that sounds "reasonable." Here's the problem, it's loaded with assumptions, as you will (I pray) see.

1.) It assumes that the Antichrist will truly be received and anointed by Israel as their long-awaited Messiah, as foretold by their prophets. I see no Scriptural support for this claim. As I will show, the opposite is the case.
2.) It assumes that the "Israel" that will anoint him as KING truly cares about being true to their Scriptures; that they desire to truly honor the Lord, or even believe in and love the God of the Bible. Neither do they, nor will they.
3.) It assumes the Bible truly indicates - even through a deductive process of comparing Scripture with Scripture - that the AC is Jewish. One can only make that assumption through textual isolation, not contextualization; the former eisegesis, the later exegesis.

Regarding the first assumption, where in the Bible does it indicate that the Antichrist will be anointed as Israel's long-awaited Messiah? Let me be clear. From what I can gather, the Antichrist will be a kind of savior, not just to the Jews, but to the entire world. I unpack this in my book. I believe the world will come to the brink of annihilation. The Antichrist will step in and quite literally save humanity from all-out destruction. I understand there is a bit of conjecture in that last statement, but I believe conjecture based on a solid systematic study of the totality of information the Bible gives us on that coming "false peace." I suspect he will do this through the Mark of the Beast - a system that will monitor all buying and selling. Even criminals are obedient people when you're the one holding the food. 

But where in Scripture does it say that he will be anointed as Israel's King, much less their Messiah? Chapter and verse? Yes, there are passages found in Isaiah, Ezekiel and elsewhere that mockingly refer to him as a "prince," "worthless shepherd," "rejected branch," etc. But none of those passages prove that Israel willingly anoints him as their foretold Jewish Messiah. (I will look at some of those passages below in their context.) 

To my second point, of course there are Jews today awaiting the coming of THEIR (in other words, Jewish) Messiah. That goes without saying. (How incredible that you and Doug presumed I was unaware of this. That was simple ad hominem on your part and frankly, unnecessary. It continues right up to your last comment to me, which I believe to be telling.) But again, I have asked this question multiple times in this post: Are the truly elect Jews that expectantly await the coming of their Messiah the same Jews (or Israel) that will embrace the Antichrist? Hardly.

Without any of the above stated distinction, you say the Jews will only embrace the Antichrist if he is Jewish. But consider this. If his Jewishness is a do or die factor, what about all the other considerations that the Messiah must fulfill? Are those going to be just swept under the rug by the Jews? Will only his Jewishness be the factor? The true Jewish Messiah, as described in the Hebrew Bible will be One Who comes in the name of Jehovah God -- Who rules in righteousness. (The OT verses are numerous. Unlike yourself, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know them.) He will be a Man of truth, a Man of humility, a Man of love, a Man of sacrifice. If we want to see the perfect OT profile of the coming Messiah, it is Jesus Christ. The only things not fulfilled presently by Christ are the things that await His second coming, e.g. vengeance, judgement, etc. Scripture tells us in Zechariah and elsewhere that not only will the Jews worship freely in their rebuilt temple, BUT ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME UP TO JERUSALEM TO WORSHIP. The Gentile will grab onto the sleeve of a Jew and request an escort to Jerusalem.

Will the Antichrist fulfill ANY of the above things? Will he have the righteous qualities of the Messiah the Jews are awaiting? Hardly. In fact, he will be the very opposite.

That said, I believe the apostate (infidel) Jews will turn to the Antichrist as "a" savior. They will enter into a covenant with him. But not as the ultimate fulfillment of their long-awaited Messiah. The Israel that signs an agreement with him will not be looking for a Messianic Jew. Again, nowhere does Scripture indicate that that is the case. Israel (the wicked state of Israel) will turn to the Antichrist simply for power and dominance over their state neighbors. Think expediency. He will establish a temporary peace as they shout, "Peace, peace! when there is no peace." Israel will once again do what it has ALWAYS DONE since Abraham first lied to Pharaoh about his familial relationship with his wife, Sarah, namely -- ENTER INTO A COMPROMISING AND ABOMINABLE LOCKING OF ARMS WITH GENTILES. In fact, one of the main purposes of the Tribulation is the purification of God's wife, Israel. He will separate true Israel from the false Israel who will once again turn to a pagan - the Antichrist - for security. Secular Jews will enjoy power/peace and religious Jews will relish the freedom to return to their temple sacrifices. This will all be secured by some kind of covenant that will be broken by the Antichrist half way through the Tribulation.

My third point will be covered as I address your excerpt from Arthur Pink's book, The Antichrist. A few words regarding his book. First off, I've read it probably 4 or 5 times and quote it extensively in my book. I have a profound respect for him. He is one of the great theologians of the Church. However, like you and I, he is human, and therefore fallible. Although his book is a must read for anyone interested in this topic, I do not espouse everything he says regarding the Antichrist. This is especially true regarding the AC's ethnicity. Pink missed it on this as I will endeavor to show.

1.) Regarding Ezekiel 21:24-27, as is the case with most OT prophecies, there is a duo-fulfillment in this passage - one historical, the other, future. The historical acts as a "type" of the future fulfillment - its anti-type. If we are going to understand the future anti-type, we must first examine its historical (past) context. The "wicked prince" in this passage is King Hezekiah, Judah's last king. He was not "anointed" by Israel but was put into power as a puppet king by Nebuchadnezzar himself. Eventually, the Babylonians invaded Jerusalem and took Zedekiah captive because of his alliance with Egypt, against the Lord's command. (There they go again, trusting Gentiles to be their savior instead of their true Savior.) Nebuchadnezzar took Zedekiah to Babylon and gouged out his eyes. Sometimes people's eyes need plucking before they start seeing.

Note the prophecy in verse 26-27: "Remove the turban and take off the crown. Things shall not remain as they are. Exalt that which is low, and bring low that which is exalted. 27 A ruin, ruin, ruin I will make it. This also shall not be, until he comes, the one to whom judgment belongs, and I will give it to him." 

Read virtually ANY commentary on this passage. These verses indicate that there will not be another king anointed in Jerusalem UNTIL He (Christ) comes to whom judgment belongs. If the Antichrist is anointed in any official capacity as Israel's Messiah and King, then THIS IS A FALSE PROPHECY. Truth be told, THERE CANNOT BE A KING ANOINTED IN JERUSALEM UNTIL CHRIST COMES. This passage alone leaves your theory of a Jewish Antichrist on shaky ground. I repeat, there cannot be an anointed King of Israel until Christ returns. This text is explicit. Nowhere in Scripture does it say the AC is anointed either as King or Messiah (They go hand in hand, by the way.)

That said, I do believe this passage does make reference to the AC in a limited sense. First off, this is not what I would call a "direct prophecy." It's historical. In other words, it describes a real-life event that happened some 2500 years ago. But as a historical puppet king, Hezekiah functions as a "type" of antichrist who will also be a kind of puppet prince (not an anointed king) to the secular "State" of Israel. I believe the wording of "prince" instead of king eludes to this. The Antichrist, like Antiochus before him, will seize the position for himself when he takes his triumphant ride, known as a Roman Triumph, into Jerusalem. The Roman Triumph was a general's ride (parade) into a city following the conquering of his enemies. He was treated as a "god" for a day. The parade culminated as he entered a pagan temple - of Jupiter or some other Greek/Roman deity - to offer up a sacrifice. I believe this will happen again when the Antichrist invades Jerusalem and stands up in the newly built Jewish Temple to commit the abomination of desolation (Daniel 11). Recently I heard a news commentator describe Trump's desire for a military parade as a desire to have a Roman Triumph.

Not too coincidentally, Trump's entire NY Trump Tower penthouse features artwork of this event -- on his mantelpiece and on his ceilings. In fact, the painting on his mantelpiece is called"The Triumph of Apollo Led by the Aurora." Tom Horn recently published book showing the connection between Apollo and Apollyon (Rev. 9:11).  Also, the name, trump, means "triumph" (trump is contained within the word - TRiUMPh.) It also means "trickery," as in a trump card, which "wins a trick," or in the phrase, "trumped-up charges." While I'm on the subject, the name, Donald, means "king of the world." His full name, Donald Trump, could be translated, "King of the world who triumphs by trickery."  

Ask yourself why Israel would be satisfied simply with Jewish ethnicity and yet ignore the obvious, that this messiah is the embodiment of evil. Some try to gloss over this by suggesting that the AC goes through some radical change when the devil possesses him. (He does. But not from good to evil, but evil to super evil.) They say that prior to this possession, he will be a highly charming and charismatic orator who is loved by everyone. There's only one problem. That portrait of the AC is found ONLY in the movies and NOWHERE in Scripture. I've asked dozens of Christians for chapter and verse supporting this false teaching. Still waiting. 

Stop a second and think this through. Is it fair to say, that to the Jew, the coming of their Messiah is the most important event since the time of Abraham?? If the anointing of Israel's coming King and Messiah is the GREATEST EVENT IN THE HISTORY OF THEIR RELIGION, and they end up falling for an impostor by anointing him as their king and messiah in direct violation to the prophecy of Ezekiel, why is Scripture silent about such a pivotal event? Isn't that a tiny oversight of the OT prophets? Unfortunately, there's strong evidence to suggest that the idea of the Jewishness of the coming Son of Satan does not come from Scripture, but rather a 2000-year history of antisemitism that has plagued the Church starting with her original Church Fathers in the 2nd century. (And no, I am not suggesting your motivation stems from antisemitism.) You have stressed "common sense." Aside from the fact that the Bible supports my interpretation, all things considered, my view makes better sense.

Pink references Daniel 9:25 to further support his claim that the AC is a Jewish King. The verse says: "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks." 

Arthur Pink has left the reservation on this one, suggesting this prince is the Antichrist. The Prince in verse 25 is none other than a reference to Jesus Christ, not the Antichrist!!! The Antichrist does not come into view until the following verse (26) which says, "And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war." Notice the subject is not the prince here, but rather "the people" of the prince who is to come. Who are "the people?" They are the ones that destroyed the sanctuary. Which sanctuary? The temple in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Who destroyed the temple in 70 A.D.? THE ROMANS!! The people of the prince, the Antichrist, are Romans, not Jews. The Antichrist does not have a Jewish bloodline. If there is any significance to the Antichrist' blood, it's Gentile (Roman). Does this mean he'll be from Italy? No. But he'll be of European descent and intrinsically tied to pagans, not Jews. Elsewhere, the Antichrist is referred to as "The Assyrian." The Assyrians are said to have settled to a town in Germany, some 50 miles from Trump's ancestors.

2.) Ezekiel 28:2-10  Once again, this passage is rooted in a real-life historical account. I only need note that the King of Tyre was a real person and he was indeed a Gentile, not a Jew. Pink seems to think that the Prince of Tyre dying the "death of the uncircumcised" hints of the Jewishness of the AC. Not at all. I repeat, the historical context here is in reference to a Gentile King. The phrase "dying the death of the uncircumcised" simply means that he will go to hell since salvation was ONLY through the Jews (see John 4:22). Pink is starting with a pretext and reading that into the passage. Again, I have a profound respect for him. But he's human. 

3.) Daniel 11:36-37  If the Ezekiel passage puts you on shaky ground, Daniel 11 pounds the nail in the coffin, as you will soon see. For starters, Pink was profoundly unaware that the KJV mistranslated "gods" as "God." The original is in the plural as all modern translations translate it. It says that he (the Antichrist) will not honor the "gods" of his fathers. I asked this before. How many polytheistic Jews do you know? This is no Jewish Antichrist in view here. It's a Gentile.

A few verses earlier it says, "In his place a despicable person will arise, on whom the honor of kingship has not been conferred, but he will come in a time of tranquility and seize the kingdom by intrigue." (verse 21)

Here is a text regarding the Antichrist. What does it say? Does the text state that he will be anointed as Israel's king? Or their Messiah? No it does not. It says the honor of kingship will NOT BE CONFERRED and that he will SEIZE THE KINGDOM THROUGH INTRIGUE.

Hear that sound in your head? That's your schematic for a Jewish Antichrist crashing to the ground.

4.) Matt. 12:43-45 This one's easy. I need only quote Pink's words: "If that can be established"
Since he made no effort in point #4 to establish it, neither will I make any effort to refute it.

5.) John 5:46 Pink gets into the Greek here for the word "another" (allos) which typically means "another of the same kind." Pinks suggests that it refers to another of the same "genus" and hence, the AC must be a Jew. Not at all. More likely, it just means another "human." Again, he's reading a pretext so far into this verse as to distort the verse's plain meaning. I've already discussed this passage at length in this post. I also posted a separate post on this passage. See: Battle of NAMES -- Christ versus Antichrist in the Worthy Forum.

6.) Because "anti" (in the word Antichrist) can be interpreted, "in place of", it is a leap in logic to assume this demands the Antichrist must be a Jew. The Jewish Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. What was erected "in place of" it?  A pagan temple.

7.) Pink just makes bald assertions here without any Scriptural evidence to back it up. He promises to expound on it later in the book. As stated, I read the book maybe 4 times and don't recall him doing so. He also brings up the tribe of Dan theory. The Scriptural evidence for that theory is so sparse I'm inclined to think the source of it was rooted more in antisemitism than Bible scholarship.

That ends Pinks quotation.

You added that Trump is from a superpower nation and thus, cannot be a Little Horn, as Daniel describes him. In sensitivity to your fondness for Arthur Pink, I need only quote him,
“Little Horn speaks of the lowly political origin of the Antichrist and describes him as he is before he attains governmental supremacy” (The Antichrist p. 75). Trump had no military or political background before running for office. That nobody saw him coming was summed up nicely by Seth Meyers at the White House Correspondents Dinner, "Donald Trump has been saying that he will run for president as a Republican, which is surprising, since I just assumed he was running as a joke." So did most everybody else -- minus one. I also argue that the Antichrist is truly a little man internally, hence his obsessive need to boast and exaggerate EVERYTHING. (Sound familiar?) This is what Daniel means by "great words." The great words the AC speaks are great words about himself.

I challenge you all to investigate what Trump said and did in Dayton, Ohio and El Paso, Texas in the midst of such heartache and tragedy. Even in the presence of victims whose relatives were brutally slaughtered, Trump's focus was still on boasting of the greatness of himself. He tweeted this regarding a news conference that was put on  in Dayton, Ohio: "Very SAD to see Ohio Senator Brown, & Dayton Mayor Nan Whaley – LYING & completely mischaracterizing what took place w/ the President’s visit to Miami Valley Hospital today. They are disgraceful politicians, doing nothing but politicizing a mass shooting, at every turn they can. The President was treated like a Rock Star inside the hospital, which was all caught on video. They all loved seeing their great President!" I do not include this to be political, but only to show that even in the most terrible of human tragedies, Trump's focus is on the greatness of himself. This is blatantly described in Daniel chapter 8 and 11. It is frankly inhuman.

The last few paragraphs of your reply amount to calumny and thus, warrant no reply from me. (Oh the irony that I initially skimmed over Pink's words in your reply, not having read your last snide remarks and hastily replied, complimenting you on your tone. WOW!!)

I will end with this. The burden of proof regarding the AC's supposed Jewishness lies with you, not me. I am not the one making the claim. That said, my burden of proof does not rise to the level of "beyond" a doubt. I need only to present a bit of doubt. I think it's fair to say that not only did I achieve that goal, my reply rises far and beyond that bar. And if that be true, Trump is still a worthy candidate and has not been disqualified by you or anyone else on this forum.

Because you have now stooped to name calling and invective; comparing me to the worst dredge of society (narcissist, Timothy's description of the wicked persons of the last days, etc), I must unfortunately end further discussion with you. As I said to Doug, there are profitable discussions to have. This has ceased from being one a while ago. Respond all you want, but I will not likely reply further to your comments. Sorry. I hope you can at least concede that I was thorough in answering your latest reply.

To the praise of Jesus Christ and Him alone.....

Edited August 10, 2019 by Jonathan Dane

[dhchristian]

That is fine if you want to cease the discussion, But I will take the final word here. I Usually leave that to others, and the readers to decide, but some clarification is needed.

These are conclusive remarks for the readers, so no need to respond. I Am sure I will take some tangents. 

47 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

I believe your theory is as follows: Since the Messiah of the Jews must be Jewish, it follows that the Antichrist will be Jewish since he is the "false" Messiah who comes as one "in place of" Christ or "Anti"-Christ. If somebody is going to impersonate Elvis, they better have dyed black hair and sideburns. Likewise, if the false Messiah is to pull one over on the Jews, he must be able to prove his Jewish identity. There's no way in hell they would accept an infidel to be their Messiah. On its face, that sounds "reasonable." Here's the problem, it's loaded with assumptions, as you will (I pray) see.

It is a common sense assumption, not a loaded one. We all begin any of our theories with assumptions, and there is no such thing as objective science. At the very least I am open and honest about mine, You are not. Just like the OP talks about how this is "not about anyone in particular", well now it is about someone, DJT. Your Post and your book is just another hit piece on someone you dislike, and thus you see as antichrist. Unfortunately this is the level that this culture has gotten to. We went through this for 8 years with BHO as well, and all the people pushing this theory had similar lists of proofs such as you have here.... I could post them all, but it would probably take a small book to post them all. Underlying this theory of yours is the assumption that the outward persona of DJT is characteristic of his inner being and heart... again, I make the same complaint about those accusing BHO of being the AC, though there is more justification to making this judgment with regard to BHO due to his anti- Christian positions politically. So at the heart of your theory is a Judgment made on the character of DJT and his inner motives based on what you see of his outer expressions. ANYONE who has any inkling of what it takes to "make it big in the big apple" knows what the Word Bravado means, and a lot of what you see of DJT is his bravado.

The Point of this is that you are making your interpretation based on an assumption and judgment of character of this man, one that is fed to your psyche by the Mainstream media which has a left leaning, and globalist leaning ideology and agenda. This can be explicitly seen in your comments here, and even in this one you state:

1 hour ago, Jonathan Dane said:

Recently I heard a news commentator describe Trump's desire for a military parade as a desire to have a Roman Triumph.

As well as when you discuss investigating what happened in the hospitals in Dayton. You have the media who is pro democrat, and globalist, using the statements of two democrats (Senator Brown and Nan Whaley), one of whom is running for governor of Ohio, and will do anything for free publicity such as this, versus DJT, whose ONLY outlet to defend himself that the masses can hear is via his tweets, where he is limited in the number of characters he can use to get his side of things out. And then you have the nerve to say the following: 

 

1 hour ago, Jonathan Dane said:

I do not include this to be political, but only to show that even in the most terrible of human tragedies, Trump's focus is on the greatness of himself.

 So To Sum this critique of your theory up, and I am sorry I am not playing by your rules, Your assumption you begin your theory with and base it on is a judgment made of a person based on what those who have a motive and desire to bear false witness against him say. For Me this makes your theory fall flat on it's face, right from the outset, and which is why I replied here in the first place. If the assumptions are wrong, the outcome is only going to prove itself, Good theoretical studies begin with honesty about assumptions, which you have failed to show here, by not being honest about your assumptions. 

So let's give a little example here to illustrate this, one many Christians are familiar with. If you begin your theoretical science with the assumption there is no God, You will invariably end up with a theory that is along the lines of evolution. If you then ignore this assumption, and tell the world the lie that this is objective science then what is little old me who is not a scientist supposed to argue, we must just accept the word of these experts, who use big words, and do science for a living? The same can be said of cult leaders, who claim a special revelation from God... well how dare you question them if that revelation is from God? All I can say is thank God for the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, for he gives us the eyes to see and the means to test the spirits, But of course there are some who are wooed by the eloquent language of these scientists, and cult leaders and follow every whim of what they are told. To me, it is almost laughable how obvious your assumptions and bias is in all of this. Which means one of two things, either you are purposely misleading people and being dishonest about your assumptions, or you are being manipulated by the media and their attempts at propaganda and are blind to their assumptions and motives. This is not a political point, for this goes both ways. The bias of the mass media is obvious, and I could say the same of the right wing/alternative media, what little there is out there. For Example, both Fox News and Newsmax are wholly or partly owned by Roman Catholics, Most of the commentators and talk radio people are Roman Catholics. Their slant is towards moralism and the Catholic church. Moralism is not the Gospel.

MY CONCLUSION TO THIS DEBATE FOR THE READERS.

Satan ALWAYS fights from two towers. When we are tossed to and fro by every wind of Doctrine as children in the faith (Eph 4:14), we are likely to fall into his traps and snares. But when we reach the unity of the spirit and Maturity in Christ Jesus we are no more vulnerable to these sorts of doctrines of men, that wave us to and fro. For then Christ is the head, not some philosophy or politic of man. Jonathon Dane's theory is just that, a theory.  A theory that is based on an assumption. An assumption he has tried to conceal. Deliberately or not, that is between him and the LORD. Those with discernment can see this almost immediately when they come upon a post like this, But it takes time to root it out and expose it. Others also will oppose this theory solely because they are on the other side of the political debate. Satan uses this duality many times by sending an ally to fight along side you, only then to get you to fall into their camp of doctrine. This fight is as old as time itself. Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was not just the tree of the knowledge of evil, not the tree of the knowledge of God, but  the tree of the knowledge of Both good and evil. The deception lies in the supposed enlightenment it brings. But it only brings death. The tree of Life stands in contrast to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Jesus is the tree of Life, He is Truth. The Knowledge of good and evil can only condemn us, the Truth of God gives us life. Moralism and legalism are all man's attempts to please God based on the knowledge of Good and evil, and its appeal is enlightenment. Christianity is Christ on the cross Pleasing God for us, and by his substitutionary sacrifice giving us the Way the Truth and the Life.

Petty debates such as this make one feel important, but the Truth lies with Christ and the cross. For there, we come on bended knee, and say LORD I can't, but you can and are able. When we are there we can say I do not know, but LORD "thou knowest". There we feel the comfort and joy of being under his wings. Many men will come with flatteries including the Antichrist, and will deceive many, but so long as you are in the arms of Christ Jesus, and he is your all in all, their flatteries will fall on def ears. Lucifer(Satan) promises illumination, Jesus promises Life, and Truth. If it is not a cult leader, or a scientist that comes trying to win following, it is a Pastor and a priest who has placed themselves on this sort of pedestal, Do Not be overwhelmed by their eloquence and manipulation. For Christ already won the victory, And he reveals the Truth to those who are his.

 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Romans 11:28)

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. (Luke 21:12)

It is obvious from these two verses that Israel will ally themselves with the beast, and be an integral part of the beast system. This system is known as Noahidism, and part of this is to establish courts (councils) to enforce these Laws. This Noahidism is also in essence the worship element of the mark of the beast. You must conform to these laws or die. The Beast system is at its heart a Jewish System of governance, and will be led by a Jew. But this Jew will be one who does not believe in the God of his fathers... The Word for God, that Jonathon says should be translated as gods is Eloyhim, this is the same Word used for God in Genesis 1. Yes, it is a plural, But it points to one God. Until the Jews say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD," they are antichrist. Plain and simple. Do I hate them? No, They are the apple of God's eye. In fact, the time is coming when we will need to make a choice Like Our LORD did To Give our testimony (Martyria) at their hands, that through our meekness as Saints, the Will of God will be accomplished, in their redemption. When the Saints and the faithful are raptured to heaven they will be in shock and Awe, and then their redemption will begin. 

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Rom 11:11

God Bless all who read this, and those who understand what I am saying. I Know I am not the best communicator, But he chose me because of my stubbornness. Beware of people who claim to be experts and demand you to follow them or else.

 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 

[Jonathan Dane]

10 hours ago, dhchristian said:

That is fine if you want to cease the discussion, But I will take the final word here. I Usually leave that to others, and the readers to decide, but some clarification is needed.

These are conclusive remarks for the readers, so no need to respond. I Am sure I will take some tangents. 

It is a common sense assumption, not a loaded one. We all begin any of our theories with assumptions, and there is no such thing as objective science. At the very least I am open and honest about mine, You are not. Just like the OP talks about how this is "not about anyone in particular", well now it is about someone, DJT. Your Post and your book is just another hit piece on someone you dislike, and thus you see as antichrist. Unfortunately this is the level that this culture has gotten to. We went through this for 8 years with BHO as well, and all the people pushing this theory had similar lists of proofs such as you have here.... I could post them all, but it would probably take a small book to post them all. Underlying this theory of yours is the assumption that the outward persona of DJT is characteristic of his inner being and heart... again, I make the same complaint about those accusing BHO of being the AC, though there is more justification to making this judgment with regard to BHO due to his anti- Christian positions politically. So at the heart of your theory is a Judgment made on the character of DJT and his inner motives based on what you see of his outer expressions. ANYONE who has any inkling of what it takes to "make it big in the big apple" knows what the Word Bravado means, and a lot of what you see of DJT is his bravado.

The Point of this is that you are making your interpretation based on an assumption and judgment of character of this man, one that is fed to your psyche by the Mainstream media which has a left leaning, and globalist leaning ideology and agenda. This can be explicitly seen in your comments here, and even in this one you state:

As well as when you discuss investigating what happened in the hospitals in Dayton. You have the media who is pro democrat, and globalist, using the statements of two democrats (Senator Brown and Nan Whaley), one of whom is running for governor of Ohio, and will do anything for free publicity such as this, versus DJT, whose ONLY outlet to defend himself that the masses can hear is via his tweets, where he is limited in the number of characters he can use to get his side of things out. And then you have the nerve to say the following: 

 

 So To Sum this critique of your theory up, and I am sorry I am not playing by your rules, Your assumption you begin your theory with and base it on is a judgment made of a person based on what those who have a motive and desire to bear false witness against him say. For Me this makes your theory fall flat on it's face, right from the outset, and which is why I replied here in the first place. If the assumptions are wrong, the outcome is only going to prove itself, Good theoretical studies begin with honesty about assumptions, which you have failed to show here, by not being honest about your assumptions. 

So let's give a little example here to illustrate this, one many Christians are familiar with. If you begin your theoretical science with the assumption there is no God, You will invariably end up with a theory that is along the lines of evolution. If you then ignore this assumption, and tell the world the lie that this is objective science then what is little old me who is not a scientist supposed to argue, we must just accept the word of these experts, who use big words, and do science for a living? The same can be said of cult leaders, who claim a special revelation from God... well how dare you question them if that revelation is from God? All I can say is thank God for the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth, for he gives us the eyes to see and the means to test the spirits, But of course there are some who are wooed by the eloquent language of these scientists, and cult leaders and follow every whim of what they are told. To me, it is almost laughable how obvious your assumptions and bias is in all of this. Which means one of two things, either you are purposely misleading people and being dishonest about your assumptions, or you are being manipulated by the media and their attempts at propaganda and are blind to their assumptions and motives. This is not a political point, for this goes both ways. The bias of the mass media is obvious, and I could say the same of the right wing/alternative media, what little there is out there. For Example, both Fox News and Newsmax are wholly or partly owned by Roman Catholics, Most of the commentators and talk radio people are Roman Catholics. Their slant is towards moralism and the Catholic church. Moralism is not the Gospel.

MY CONCLUSION TO THIS DEBATE FOR THE READERS.

Satan ALWAYS fights from two towers. When we are tossed to and fro by every wind of Doctrine as children in the faith (Eph 4:14), we are likely to fall into his traps and snares. But when we reach the unity of the spirit and Maturity in Christ Jesus we are no more vulnerable to these sorts of doctrines of men, that wave us to and fro. For then Christ is the head, not some philosophy or politic of man. Jonathon Dane's theory is just that, a theory.  A theory that is based on an assumption. An assumption he has tried to conceal. Deliberately or not, that is between him and the LORD. Those with discernment can see this almost immediately when they come upon a post like this, But it takes time to root it out and expose it. Others also will oppose this theory solely because they are on the other side of the political debate. Satan uses this duality many times by sending an ally to fight along side you, only then to get you to fall into their camp of doctrine. This fight is as old as time itself. Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It was not just the tree of the knowledge of evil, not the tree of the knowledge of God, but  the tree of the knowledge of Both good and evil. The deception lies in the supposed enlightenment it brings. But it only brings death. The tree of Life stands in contrast to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Jesus is the tree of Life, He is Truth. The Knowledge of good and evil can only condemn us, the Truth of God gives us life. Moralism and legalism are all man's attempts to please God based on the knowledge of Good and evil, and its appeal is enlightenment. Christianity is Christ on the cross Pleasing God for us, and by his substitutionary sacrifice giving us the Way the Truth and the Life.

Petty debates such as this make one feel important, but the Truth lies with Christ and the cross. For there, we come on bended knee, and say LORD I can't, but you can and are able. When we are there we can say I do not know, but LORD "thou knowest". There we feel the comfort and joy of being under his wings. Many men will come with flatteries including the Antichrist, and will deceive many, but so long as you are in the arms of Christ Jesus, and he is your all in all, their flatteries will fall on def ears. Lucifer(Satan) promises illumination, Jesus promises Life, and Truth. If it is not a cult leader, or a scientist that comes trying to win following, it is a Pastor and a priest who has placed themselves on this sort of pedestal, Do Not be overwhelmed by their eloquence and manipulation. For Christ already won the victory, And he reveals the Truth to those who are his.

 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Romans 11:28)

But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake. (Luke 21:12)

It is obvious from these two verses that Israel will ally themselves with the beast, and be an integral part of the beast system. This system is known as Noahidism, and part of this is to establish courts (councils) to enforce these Laws. This Noahidism is also in essence the worship element of the mark of the beast. You must conform to these laws or die. The Beast system is at its heart a Jewish System of governance, and will be led by a Jew. But this Jew will be one who does not believe in the God of his fathers... The Word for God, that Jonathon says should be translated as gods is Eloyhim, this is the same Word used for God in Genesis 1. Yes, it is a plural, But it points to one God. Until the Jews say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD," they are antichrist. Plain and simple. Do I hate them? No, They are the apple of God's eye. In fact, the time is coming when we will need to make a choice Like Our LORD did To Give our testimony (Martyria) at their hands, that through our meekness as Saints, the Will of God will be accomplished, in their redemption. When the Saints and the faithful are raptured to heaven they will be in shock and Awe, and then their redemption will begin. 

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Rom 11:11

God Bless all who read this, and those who understand what I am saying. I Know I am not the best communicator, But he chose me because of my stubbornness. Beware of people who claim to be experts and demand you to follow them or else.

 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

 

For clarity -- I'm sorry, I was under the impression that we were discussing your claim that the Antichrist must be a Jew, not my character and motives for writing my book. 

Slander is easy. Defending our views from Scripture takes a bit of homework. 

 

[dhchristian]

22 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

For clarity -- I'm sorry, I was under the impression that we were discussing your claim that the Antichrist must be a Jew, not my character and motives for writing my book. 

Slander is easy. Defending our views from Scripture takes a bit of homework. 

I thought you were done? Questioning the root assumptions of a theory is called Peer review. If there is dishonesty in the assumptions it must be exposed. This is how the scientific method works. I am sorry you take offense to this, but in the end times many will be offended as per scripture. Being offended used to be called being convicted now it is viewed as an attack against the character of a person. But your whole post is an attack on the character of a person, so what is the old saying; "remove the Log out of your own eye...".

It is not personal, it is just me doing what I am called to do... Can the teacher be taught?

[Jonathan Dane]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

I thought you were done? Questioning the root assumptions of a theory is called Peer review. If there is dishonesty in the assumptions it must be exposed. This is how the scientific method works. I am sorry you take offense to this, but in the end times many will be offended as per scripture. Being offended used to be called being convicted now it is viewed as an attack against the character of a person. But your whole post is an attack on the character of a person, so what is the old saying; "remove the Log out of your own eye...".

It is not personal, it is just me doing what I am called to do... Can the teacher be taught?

"I thought you were done?"
I used the word "likely" with intention because of you're predictability.

"Questioning the root assumptions of a theory is called Peer review. This is how the scientific method works."
No, that's called moving the goalpost by changing the topic of conversation. And peer review happens AFTER a fair examination of a work, not beforehand. Have you read (examined) my book that you so eagerly attack?

"If there is dishonesty in the assumptions it must be exposed."
The only thing you have exposed is your eagerness to accuse somebody of dishonesty - minus the evidence.

"I am sorry you take offense to this, but in the end times many will be offended as per scripture." 
I rather suspect you are not sorry. As per Scripture, I used it with integrity to address the topic at hand. You used it as a weapon to unrighteously attack my character.

"Being offended used to be called being convicted now it is viewed as an attack against the character of a person.".
Wounds from a friend presupposes friendship and grace. You have shown little of either. If you cannot distinguish between conviction and offense, dare I be surprised?

"But your whole post is an attack on the character of a person, so what is the old saying; "remove the Log out of your own eye..."
My post: the one thing that has not been addressed by you or anyone on this thread, but rather, was simply dismissed out of hand because it didn't properly fit people's endtime schematic. So, after demonstrating that such schemes were flawed, as I did your Jewish AC theory, this typically leads to attacking my motives as hateful, flesh driven, fueled by political motivation, etc. -- bald assertions lacking one ounce of evidence to substantiate those charges. Absolutely 100% falsehoods.

Edit: By the way, I strongly suspect (I maybe wrong) that you and others are inserting invective simply as a means to turn this thread into a combat zone, with the goal of getting it pulled down. That being said, I will officially make this my last response to you for now. 

God bless...
 

Edited August 10, 2019 by Jonathan Dane

[dhchristian]

38 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

No, that's called moving the goalpost by changing the topic of conversation. And peer review happens AFTER a fair examination of a work, not beforehand. Have you read (examined) my book that you so eagerly attack?

No, if you go and read my initial comments to you, that is where the goal post began. Why would I want to read a book, if the author is unable to honestly approach the topic and has a political agenda? That is like willfully falling for propaganda. I Just allowed you to make a show of your intellectual superiority and condescending heart towards us "little guys" on the internet. 

 

44 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

The only thing you have exposed is your eagerness to accuse somebody of dishonesty - minus the evidence.

Not at all, Your motives have been exposed, and that is your prejudice against DJT. This post was not written to learn or to teach others but to dictate an opinion based on faulty assumptions. Plain and simple it is a "hit piece" and it is disgusting and unchristian. 

 

48 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

I rather suspect you are not sorry. As per Scripture, I used it with integrity to address the topic at hand. You used it as a weapon to unrighteously attack my character.

The hypocrisy with which you accuse me attacking your character, when your book is a hit piece on the character of a person you do not know personally and based off of what you have been told by Media sources who have an agenda to malign that person is laughable. These are just the facts of my assessment of this Post. If you cannot handle it, do not post stuff here for critique. 

56 minutes ago, Jonathan Dane said:

"Being offended used to be called being convicted now it is viewed as an attack against the character of a person.".
Wounds from a friend presupposes friendship and grace. You have shown little of either. If you cannot distinguish between conviction and offense, dare I be surprised?

Iron sharpens iron... A true friend will honestly tell you what they think good or bad, rather than sending you into the world looking like a fool. I am not accusing you of being a narcissist, but every narcissist has their Echo(s) who admire them, I am no Echo. As someone who has been in many spiritual battles against occultists, and cult leaders, I take this very seriously. Even preachers in mainline churches are prone to these narcissistic temptations of Grandeur, putting themselves on an exalted podium of pride. One day, perhaps you will thank me for this? If you cannot handle the fire do not step into it, as the old saying goes. This is, again, not personal for me, but what I am called to do.

1 hour ago, Jonathan Dane said:

"But your whole post is an attack on the character of a person, so what is the old saying; "remove the Log out of your own eye..."
My post: the one thing that has not been addressed by you or anyone on this thread, but rather, was simply dismissed out of hand because it didn't properly fit people's endtime schematic. So, after demonstrating that people's schemes are flawed, as I did your Jewish AC theory, you simply resort to attacking my motives as hateful, flesh driven, fueled by political motivation, etc. -- all of which are bald assertions not supported with one ounce of evidence. Absolutely 100% falsehoods.

It is all written here in our words to each other, and I will let the readers judge the veracity of your claim. My Jewish AC theory is based on assumptions I make, and I am honest about them, I also have a whole framework using current events to show how this likely pans out in the here and now, this framework is based on the fact that Israel is an enemy of the cross right now, as per Romans 11:28 and other scripture such as Matthew, mark and Luke's accounts of the Olivet discourse all having the councils (Sanhedrin), and synogogues, and rulers/kings involved in the accusations against the saints of the church. We have this framework in place with "Many" nations having ratified it, namely Noahidism, and this will be our opportunity to give our testimony (Martyria) as the Gospel of the Kingdom is preached to all the world. AND then comes the A of D... So which theory is right? Let the readers decide, and time will tell.

 

1 hour ago, Jonathan Dane said:

Edit: By the way, I strongly suspect (I maybe wrong) that you and others are inserting invective simply as a means to turn this thread into a combat zone, with the goal of getting it pulled down. That being said, I will officially make this my last response to you for now. 

I Just started posting here a couple of months ago. I Barely know anyone, and I personally do not collude with anyone via PM on this site. The only time I PM with people is if they reach out to me via PM. I Do not wish that anyone leave, for God has placed them on a forum such as this for a purpose, But rather that they "reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:9) while there is still time to do so, by the grace and longsuffering of God towards us. If you have P.O.'d people before on this site that they want to have you leave, is not of my concern. You are incredibly smart, but this can be problematic if you do not value interaction from those not as smart as you. I personally have learned some of the Most brilliant things from the simple hearted in the faith, and I will close with the following from Leonard Ravenhill to illustrate this (Forgive the squares in place of the punctuation). I Just read this the other day, and wondered why it stood out so much?  

 I was reading a couple of pages in the Marechales life yesterday. I like to turn to that book. She was the oldest daughter of the founder of the Salvation Army. Even when she was 85 years of age she could preach up a storm.
"One night," she said, "I went to Brussels. I went to a large mansion loaded with antiques and costly things. It was beautiful. It was owned by a Christian. I noticed a sweet girl there, at about 9 oclock each morning she would come out of the servants quarters radiant. I said to her one day,

My dearie, I want to ask you a question. Ive noticed the last few mornings while having my breakfast, after coming out of your servants quarters, you are so radiant!
She replied, I begin at 5 oclock in the morning.
5 oclock?! To what time?
Well, breakfast is at 8. Usually I have the last fire going by about half past 7.
How do you do it?
I just kneel in front of it. I sweep all the ashes on one side. I put them in a bucket. I get some paper and some kindling wood. (And boy, getting coal to catch fire is a job!) I go in that room and get that fire going. I go in the next, I go to the next. I go back and the first ones gone out, so I do it over again. But eventually I get to breakfast a minute or two before 8 oclock. Ive lit my 12 fires.
Dont you get impatient?
No.
Well, you say the fires have gone out?
Yes, they often go out.
Well, do you get up early for devotions?
No, she said, Not very early.
Well, how do you maintain you spiritual life?
She said, Every time I light a fire, I say, Jesus, while Im kindling this fire, kindle a fire in me!
Kindle a fire of Your love afresh in me this morning!
Kindle a fire of Your devotion in me!
Heres this precious little girl talking to one of the most powerful women in the world. A women who, at 21 years of age, went to Paris and turned the city upside-down preaching to all the prostitutes. The queen of the underworld was there. Men came from the Sorbone, the greatest intellectuals with their long beards and their pipes, and listened to her.
And yet the Marechale said that young lady taught me more
than most sermons Id ever heard.
She had to light the fire, get bellows, blow the things up and try to get them going. She said, "At every fire place, I never missed one morning saying, Lord as Im kindling this fire, kindle Your fire in me." The fire of love for Your will. The fire of love. The fire of joy. The fire of peace. The fire of compassion.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=6914

[Jonathan Dane]

On 8/7/2019 at 6:34 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Okay... I first wanted to know if we could start off on common ground before I share my thoughts. By no means am I claiming I'm correct on my views, assumptions and hermeneutics. I too believe the tribulation is getting very close, based on prophetic scripture and comparing scripture with what events, alignments, rhetoric and posturing is occurring today. In my pretribulation view; if the tribulation is getting close, Jesus coming in the clouds for His bride is even closer. I'm not date setting: Based on some hints in scripture, I wouldn't be surprised if something major occurs by the year 2028. I'm excited, watching and waiting for the soon coming of our Lord.

For sake of comparison, let's use your assumption of 4-7 years. From here on out I'll abbreviate the Antichrist with AC so I don't keep typing it. Much is said pertaining to the AC; a couple being he will be a great military strategist with flatteries [smooth, slippery], have great oratory abilities and eloquence of speech. Our leader certainly doesn't qualify for that one. He will start off as a 'uniter' and be extremely popular where he comes from and with the world. Half of our country and half of the world hates the one you're trying to tie to. One of the many titles of the AC is 'the Assyrian', and many more that doesn't fit your thoughts.

Any great military strategist knows it's much better to take over something, rather than destroy it and rebuild it from the ground up for his purposes. If indeed we are as close to the tribulation as we suspect; we should be able to see by now what structure or mechanism is already in place that has the power and resources to accomplish his goals and purpose. Currently, what global body is in place that when it takes a vote or sanctions a resolution, is considered as the "whole world"? I can only think of one, and that's the United Nations. Currently 90% of UN votes and resolutions go against Israel, Israels covenant land grants from God and God's laws and morals. What power and head of that organization does the Secretary General wield? Even the Vatican holds a seat [non voting] at the United Nations. I don't see the UN dissolving and going away anytime soon, but increasing in strength and power and imposing its will. If a certain somebody were not a nationalist but a globalist, I highly suspect the global agenda would be set in concrete by now. Speaking of Agenda's, ever read the UN socialist agenda's and the dates they plan to impose them? Interesting and possibly of prophetic significance!

As the Bible clearly implies, no one will know whom the AC is until he is revealed. We can guess and speculate until the cows come home, but my cows went to slaughter and won't be coming home anytime soon 

But a couple of interesting people I'm keeping an eye on and their rhetoric and actions are; Barrack Hussein Obama [for obvious reasons] and the President of France, Emmanuel Macron. This Macron is a most interesting person and rose out of obscurity. Other global leaders and countries are paying an extraordinary amount of attention to him and courting him. The European Union seems to be in flux; it almost reminds me of partially strong and partially weak, with iron not mixing with miry clay; the common currency, influx of immigration, borders and Brexit to name a few come to mind. 

I have this uneasy 'gut feeling' we will not see Trump for a second term. I suspect the next president will be a radical left leaning socialist and globalist; and sell out the Constitution and our national sovereignty. From that point on I would imagine global events and changes will occur that will boggle our mind with the speed of them? 

In just recent history some things have become blatantly obvious. The United States, Russia and possibly China are the only active powers standing between nationalism and globalism. Close to half the American population is wanting free bread and circuses [socialism] and open borders. The globe is screaming out for a secular leader to fix our problems and the mess we are in [disparities in income, trade, have's and have not's, global warming, religious disputes and differences, terrorism, threat's, saber rattling, wars and rumors of wars, nuclear threats, etc.]. 

We're living in interesting times, and are getting more interesting by the day. The "convergence" of everything prophetic is here and now; just as the Bible states as birth pangs, it's increasing in frequency and intensity. 

Come Lord Jesus!

My dear brother, I haven't forgotten about your reply. For the last week or so, I've been tag-teamed by 3 other brothers and it was just too much to bring another into the fray. I'm not very fast and to add yourself was too much for me. Now that the dust has settled a bit, I'd like to address your reply. I will respond this week. If I had time, I'd do it right now. But life beckons. 'Til then...   In Him

Edited August 11, 2019 by Jonathan Dane

[Jonathan Dane]

On 8/7/2019 at 6:34 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Okay... I first wanted to know if we could start off on common ground before I share my thoughts. By no means am I claiming I'm correct on my views, assumptions and hermeneutics. I too believe the tribulation is getting very close, based on prophetic scripture and comparing scripture with what events, alignments, rhetoric and posturing is occurring today. In my pretribulation view; if the tribulation is getting close, Jesus coming in the clouds for His bride is even closer. I'm not date setting: Based on some hints in scripture, I wouldn't be surprised if something major occurs by the year 2028. I'm excited, watching and waiting for the soon coming of our Lord.

For sake of comparison, let's use your assumption of 4-7 years. From here on out I'll abbreviate the Antichrist with AC so I don't keep typing it. Much is said pertaining to the AC; a couple being he will be a great military strategist with flatteries [smooth, slippery], have great oratory abilities and eloquence of speech. Our leader certainly doesn't qualify for that one. He will start off as a 'uniter' and be extremely popular where he comes from and with the world. Half of our country and half of the world hates the one you're trying to tie to. One of the many titles of the AC is 'the Assyrian', and many more that doesn't fit your thoughts.

Any great military strategist knows it's much better to take over something, rather than destroy it and rebuild it from the ground up for his purposes. If indeed we are as close to the tribulation as we suspect; we should be able to see by now what structure or mechanism is already in place that has the power and resources to accomplish his goals and purpose. Currently, what global body is in place that when it takes a vote or sanctions a resolution, is considered as the "whole world"? I can only think of one, and that's the United Nations. Currently 90% of UN votes and resolutions go against Israel, Israels covenant land grants from God and God's laws and morals. What power and head of that organization does the Secretary General wield? Even the Vatican holds a seat [non voting] at the United Nations. I don't see the UN dissolving and going away anytime soon, but increasing in strength and power and imposing its will. If a certain somebody were not a nationalist but a globalist, I highly suspect the global agenda would be set in concrete by now. Speaking of Agenda's, ever read the UN socialist agenda's and the dates they plan to impose them? Interesting and possibly of prophetic significance!

As the Bible clearly implies, no one will know whom the AC is until he is revealed. We can guess and speculate until the cows come home, but my cows went to slaughter and won't be coming home anytime soon 

But a couple of interesting people I'm keeping an eye on and their rhetoric and actions are; Barrack Hussein Obama [for obvious reasons] and the President of France, Emmanuel Macron. This Macron is a most interesting person and rose out of obscurity. Other global leaders and countries are paying an extraordinary amount of attention to him and courting him. The European Union seems to be in flux; it almost reminds me of partially strong and partially weak, with iron not mixing with miry clay; the common currency, influx of immigration, borders and Brexit to name a few come to mind. 

I have this uneasy 'gut feeling' we will not see Trump for a second term. I suspect the next president will be a radical left leaning socialist and globalist; and sell out the Constitution and our national sovereignty. From that point on I would imagine global events and changes will occur that will boggle our mind with the speed of them? 

In just recent history some things have become blatantly obvious. The United States, Russia and possibly China are the only active powers standing between nationalism and globalism. Close to half the American population is wanting free bread and circuses [socialism] and open borders. The globe is screaming out for a secular leader to fix our problems and the mess we are in [disparities in income, trade, have's and have not's, global warming, religious disputes and differences, terrorism, threat's, saber rattling, wars and rumors of wars, nuclear threats, etc.]. 

We're living in interesting times, and are getting more interesting by the day. The "convergence" of everything prophetic is here and now; just as the Bible states as birth pangs, it's increasing in frequency and intensity. 

Come Lord Jesus!

Sorry for the slow response. I intended on sending this on Monday, but my 92-yr-old mom got gravely ill with sepsis. Doctors were stunned on how resilient she is. She's going home tomorrow, praise be God. She'll be fine and probably outlive us all. 

I will paraphrase your points and respond. If I mischaracterize something, don't hesitate to correct me. 

Pre-trib. Because of my conclusions, one would be forgiven to conclude that I am mid or post-trib. But all things considered, I still believe the Rapture is pre-trib. Because it is such a hot-button issue, I am not dogmatic about it. Perhaps it could be mid-trib, but I cannot see how a post-trib works. I have a single question no post-trib has yet to sufficiently answer. But I'll move on for now.
Like yourself, I also do not consider myself a date setter. But I'm with you on the year 2028. By then, the world will be a much different (and darker) place. As indicated previously, I believe the period of 2024-2027 may be a general time period for the start of the trib. The Rapture could happen today.

In regard to the Antichrist being a great military strategist and eloquent in speech: I see no biblical evidence for either. Flattery yes. But eloquence? No. That view is preached in pulpits and found in movies but is nowhere found in Scripture. Also, a close examination of Daniel 11 presents an AC who is compulsive and reactionary (like Trump), not someone who is calm and calculated like we would expect to find in a seasoned commander. His power will ultimately come from Satan and secured through the mark of the beast which will leave his opponents impotent to resist him - at least for a time. The same can be said for an AC who is a "uniter" and "extremely popular." Once again, this is nowhere found in Scripture. Yes, the AC will be worshiped. But when the alternative is death, that requires no popularity contest. Consider this verse from Isaiah 14:16-17 "Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’"  This is no homecoming king. He rules via fear, not popularity. Bottom line, there is no conflict with Trump -  just the opposite. He's a dead-ringer.

United Nations
I believe without the support of the United States, this entity would be a non-entity. I'll leave it there.

Does the Bible truly say that no one will know the identity of the AC until he is revealed? No. At present, the restrainer is preventing the "revealing" of the Antichrist (half-way through the trib when he commits the Abom. of Des.). But what is this "revealing?" 2 Thess 2:6 says: "And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time." Now, I will confess that I am not a Greek scholar, so consider the source. Strongs says that the Greek word for "to be revealed" is apokaluptó . Okay. What is the Revelation of Christ (as in the book of)? It is a revealing TO THE ENTIRE WORLD. All will see Him at His return, believers and unbelievers alike. Interesting, the Greek word for "the revelation" is apokalupsis (Both words are Strongs 601 and 602 respectively). Both words are very similar -- defined as an uncovering/revealing. In both cases, the masks come off for ALL (the entire world) to see. This is evident from both the definition and the context.

Does it follow then that "nobody" knows the identity of Jesus Christ? No. In the time of Christ, many saw Him and knew Him. I dare say, even Moses spoke to Him face to face. Today, Christians everywhere "know Him." Yet, has the Revelation of Jesus Christ occurred? No. That will happen at His Second Coming. Assuming the Rapture is pre-trib, this will happen after the Church has already enjoyed His company in heaven for 7 years.

The same is true for the AC. This revealing is a revealing to the entire world. If Christ is the standard, it does not preclude that individuals will know who he is before this time. Recall, this happens half-way through the trib. The Jewish temple will be in use. By such time, discerning saints will know what's happening and who is behind these events. The AC will have already signed some kind of "deal" with Israel. The world will not yet know his identity. But individual saints certainly will.

Obama and Macron. Read my original post (which not one person on this thread has seriously addressed but only dismissed out of hand). It is simply a profile of the AC. Do either of these men fit that profile? They most certainly do not. Are they ones who continually boast? No. Are they fierce in countenance? No. Do they compulsively lie? No. Are they "larger in appearance than their (his) associates?" No. Do they compulsively flatter people? No. Are they insanely wealthy? No. I could go on and on. Is Trump all those things? YES HE IS - TO THE EXTREME. To say that "all politicians do those things" will not suffice. The Bible indicates an extreme behavior, as indicated by it's repetition of these qualities. It's not just that the AC is a deceiver, or a boaster etc. He is the embodiment of these things. 

Daniel calls him "a little horn." I'm a professional trumpet player. The original trumpet was an animal's horn. You played it by buzzing it. The brass "buzzed instrument" family has a variety of sizes - from the Tuba (largest) to the trumpet (the smallest). The "little horn" of the brass family is a trumpet (a trump, as it is called in I Corinthians 15 KJV). Daniel calls the AC a little horn - a trumpet or a "trump." How 'bout that?

I can guarantee we will see Trump for a second term. (I assume as much in my book.) Is it possible he gets impeached? Yes - and Pence could turn right around and pardon him in order for him to run again, if not be reinstated outright.

With you on your general expectations. Thanks for your reply and your tone.

God bless you brother...

Edited August 16, 2019 by Jonathan Dane

[Dennis1209]

7 hours ago, Jonathan Dane said:

Sorry for the slow response. I intended on sending this on Monday, but my 92-yr-old mom got gravely ill with sepsis. Doctors were stunned on how resilient she is. She's going home tomorrow, praise be God. She'll be fine and probably outlive us all. 

I will paraphrase your points and respond. If I mischaracterize something, don't hesitate to correct me. 

Pre-trib. Because of my conclusions, one would be forgiven to conclude that I am mid or post-trib. But all things considered, I still believe the Rapture is pre-trib. Because it is such a hot-button issue, I am not dogmatic about it. Perhaps it could be mid-trib, but I cannot see how a post-trib works. I have a single question no post-trib has yet to sufficiently answer. But I'll move on for now.
Like yourself, I also do not consider myself a date setter. But I'm with you on the year 2028. By then, the world will be a much different (and darker) place. As indicated previously, I believe the period of 2024-2027 may be a general time period for the start of the trib. The Rapture could happen today.

In regard to the Antichrist being a great military strategist and eloquent in speech: I see no biblical evidence for either. Flattery yes. But eloquence? No. That view is preached in pulpits and found in movies but is nowhere found in Scripture. Also, a close examination of Daniel 11 presents an AC who is compulsive and reactionary (like Trump), not someone who is calm and calculated like we would expect to find in a seasoned commander. His power will ultimately come from Satan and secured through the mark of the beast which will leave his opponents impotent to resist him - at least for a time. The same can be said for an AC who is a "uniter" and "extremely popular." Once again, this is nowhere found in Scripture. Yes, the AC will be worshiped. But when the alternative is death, that requires no popularity contest. Consider this verse from Isaiah 14:16-17 "Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?’"  This is no homecoming king. He rules via fear, not popularity. Bottom line, there is no conflict with Trump -  just the opposite. He's a dead-ringer.

United Nations
I believe without the support of the United States, this entity would be a non-entity. I'll leave it there.

Does the Bible truly say that no one will know the identity of the AC until he is revealed? No. At present, the restrainer is preventing the "revealing" of the Antichrist (half-way through the trib when he commits the Abom. of Des.). But what is this "revealing?" 2 Thess 2:6 says: "And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time." Now, I will confess that I am not a Greek scholar, so consider the source. Strongs says that the Greek word for "to be revealed" is apokaluptó . Okay. What is the Revelation of Christ (as in the book of)? It is a revealing TO THE ENTIRE WORLD. All will see Him at His return, believers and unbelievers alike. Interesting, the Greek word for "the revelation" is apokalupsis (Both words are Strongs 601 and 602 respectively). Both words are very similar -- defined as an uncovering/revealing. In both cases, the masks come off for ALL (the entire world) to see. This is evident from both the definition and the context.

Does it follow then that "nobody" knows the identity of Jesus Christ? No. In the time of Christ, many saw Him and knew Him. I dare say, even Moses spoke to Him face to face. Today, Christians everywhere "know Him." Yet, has the Revelation of Jesus Christ occurred? No. That will happen at His Second Coming. Assuming the Rapture is pre-trib, this will happen after the Church has already enjoyed His company in heaven for 7 years.

The same is true for the AC. This revealing is a revealing to the entire world. If Christ is the standard, it does not preclude that individuals will know who he is before this time. Recall, this happens half-way through the trib. The Jewish temple will be in use. By such time, discerning saints will know what's happening and who is behind these events. The AC will have already signed some kind of "deal" with Israel. The world will not yet know his identity. But individual saints certainly will.

Obama and Macron. Read my original post (which not one person on this thread has seriously addressed but only dismissed out of hand). It is simply a profile of the AC. Do either of these men fit that profile? They most certainly do not. Are they ones who continually boast? No. Are they fierce in countenance? No. Do they compulsively lie? No. Are they "larger in appearance than their (his) associates?" No. Do they compulsively flatter people? No. Are they insanely wealthy? No. I could go on and on. Is Trump all those things? YES HE IS - TO THE EXTREME. To say that "all politicians do those things" will not suffice. The Bible indicates an extreme behavior, as indicated by it's repetition of these qualities. It's not just that the AC is a deceiver, or a boaster etc. He is the embodiment of these things. 

Daniel calls him "a little horn." I'm a professional trumpet player. The original trumpet was an animal's horn. You played it by buzzing it. The brass "buzzed instrument" family has a variety of sizes - from the Tuba (largest) to the trumpet (the smallest). The "little horn" of the brass family is a trumpet (a trump, as it is called in I Corinthians 15 KJV). Daniel calls the AC a little horn - a trumpet or a "trump." How 'bout that?

I can guarantee we will see Trump for a second term. (I assume as much in my book.) Is it possible he gets impeached? Yes - and Pence could turn right around and pardon him in order for him to run again, if not be reinstated outright.

With you on your general expectations. Thanks for your reply and your tone.

God bless you brother...

Well Brother, we can always agree to disagree with the non-essentials in a brotherly love. I'm certainly not dogmatic in my hermeneutic and prophetic views; exception being the timing of the Rapture and Salvation by Grace through Jesus Christ alone.

Against all secular betting odds, Trump won the election by a miracle in my opinion. God appoints and removes kings, rulers and presidents according to His will and purposes. Trump's appointment to president looks to me like direct divine intervention by the Lord Himself. Trump is on the fast track getting to end-time ball rolling I.M.O. He is loved and trusted in Israel much more than even here in the US (yeah I know, 50% either love him or hate him). Israel is naming a train station after him that is going to serve the mass that will travel to the new third Temple when it's build. I'm sure you're aware of the recent silver and gold Temple coin minted; with the image of King Cyrus in the back ground with Trump in the foreground on the obverse, and an image of the new Temple on the reverse? I'm sure you're aware of the number of private meetings Trump has had with orthodox Rabbis and high ranking Jewish leaders that have his ear. Along with his envoy Jared Kushner building and paving the way with Arab / Muslim support for an Israel peace plan.

Trump has intentionally surrounded himself with Christian counselors and advisers, Pence himself is an open Christian. Surely if Trump is not personally aware of biblical prophecy pertaining to Israel and the end-times, he has been made aware of it by his councilors? To my understanding Trump is adamant  about opening his cabinet meetings and other official functions with prayer (to the one true living God). Trump is a staunch nationalist, not a globalist; always has been and always will be. He has done more personally and financially behind the scenes for our military and veterans, than any other president in my life time, he's a true patriot and American. I'm well aware of his publicized failures and faults and past sins and not going to cast a stone.

Since May 14, 1948, in his first three years in office; Trump has had more success in Israeli - Arab - Muslim relations and accomplished more than all the other presidents combined. Given where I suspect we are on the end-time calendar, I highly suspect Trump's peace plan proposal will have teeth, be supported by Saudi Arabia and several other Muslim countries; and will be the covenant the Antichrist "confirms"... or parts of it? 

Again based on my perceived prophetic time clock and current global events, I can't see Trump remaining in power through 2024 by whatever means. Regardless of how all this plays out; God is in control and it's a special blessing for us to be witness to it. At my age it's a race of how much the Lord allows me to see and witness; be it by Rapture or the Lord calling me home. But there's no doubt in my mind from here on out, end-time events leading up to prophetic events are going to exponentially speed up. As time unfolds we will be able to see the big picture more clearly day by day and probably amend our prophetic views.

The world is not falling to pieces; the pieces are falling into place.  ~  Jan Merkell (Olive Tree Ministries)

God Bless