The_Patriot21 Posted July 27, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 28 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,710 Content Per Day: 2.46 Reputation: 8,526 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted July 27, 2019 9 hours ago, R. Hartono said: Anacletus lead Roman church during the time John rcvd the Revelation circa 85 AD. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_popes theres some reading into stuff there...like the roman catholic church was never mentioned in the Bible....nowhere does it say that Peter was the first pope (like that article says) nor is there any real indication, outside of catholic tradition, that states that the church even existed back then. I would venture to say the actual roman catholic church probably didnt get started until long after the apostles all died. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted July 30, 2019 On 7/22/2019 at 1:22 AM, R. Hartono said: Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. LORD JESUS DID NOT SEND ANY MESSAGE TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO CLAIMED AS THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER. IN OTHER WORDS THERE IS NO CONFIRMATION FROM JESUS. This message was given to apostle John circa 85 AD which was the era of the EARLY CHURCH OF THE APOSTLES where there were only few churches compared to our present era. If apostle Peter established the Roman Catholic Church why there is no confirmation from Lord Jesus in His messages to churches ? There is no star and candle light representing the RCC as they claim to be the One True Apostolic Church and the successor of Peter . I however agree that this message can be the picture of end times churches denomination which were not yet established at that time. This is the CONFIRMED early churches of Jesus Christ which spread to the whole world.    Rome is in Italy, not Asia.  Thus the letters would not be to them.   1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takoda Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 137 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/11/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/27/1943 Share Posted July 30, 2019 The Roman Catholic Church was still in the process of formation until Constantine. It cannot really be said to have been an established church until then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marilyn C Posted July 30, 2019 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 267 Topics Per Day: 0.07 Content Count: 13,205 Content Per Day: 3.49 Reputation: 8,497 Days Won: 12 Joined: 12/21/2013 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/06/1947 Share Posted July 30, 2019 On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:52 PM, R. Hartono said: Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. LORD JESUS DID NOT SEND ANY MESSAGE TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO CLAIMED AS THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER. IN OTHER WORDS THERE IS NO CONFIRMATION FROM JESUS. This message was given to apostle John circa 85 AD which was the era of the EARLY CHURCH OF THE APOSTLES where there were only few churches compared to our present era. If apostle Peter established the Roman Catholic Church why there is no confirmation from Lord Jesus in His messages to churches ? There is no star and candle light representing the RCC as they claim to be the One True Apostolic Church and the successor of Peter . I however agree that this message can be the picture of end times churches denomination which were not yet established at that time. This is the CONFIRMED early churches of Jesus Christ which spread to the whole world.    Hi R.Hartono, Every aspect of the Body of Christ over the centuries and over the earth, is represented. Seven is the number of completeness, meaning the whole Body of Christ. Note also that the Lord the HEAD of the Body does NOT just hold the 7 early church groups in His hand, BUT ALL the Body of Christ, otherwise He wouldn`t be the HEAD. Another point is that the descriptions of the 7 church groups did NOT occur together at the beginning. It was only over time that error came in, as the Apostle Paul told the believers. See how close the representative groups are? Well the marked differences did not occur to the early Church, they only happened over time, over the centuries. Marilyn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Marsh Posted August 19, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 5 Topic Count: 126 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 2,086 Content Per Day: 0.57 Reputation: 500 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/03/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/15/1956 Share Posted August 19, 2019 On 7/29/2019 at 8:37 PM, Takoda said: The Roman Catholic Church was still in the process of formation until Constantine. It cannot really be said to have been an established church until then. The First use of Catholic Church was in The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, " Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid. Chapter 9. Honour the bishop" http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0109.htm  "  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07644a.htm He lived from 50 AD to 117 AD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unworthyservant Posted August 19, 2019 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 96 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 645 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 298 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/11/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2019 On 7/22/2019 at 1:22 AM, R. Hartono said: Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. LORD JESUS DID NOT SEND ANY MESSAGE TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO CLAIMED AS THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER. IN OTHER WORDS THERE IS NO CONFIRMATION FROM JESUS. This message was given to apostle John circa 85 AD which was the era of the EARLY CHURCH OF THE APOSTLES where there were only few churches compared to our present era. If apostle Peter established the Roman Catholic Church why there is no confirmation from Lord Jesus in His messages to churches ? There is no star and candle light representing the RCC as they claim to be the One True Apostolic Church and the successor of Peter . I however agree that this message can be the picture of end times churches denomination which were not yet established at that time. This is the CONFIRMED early churches of Jesus Christ which spread to the whole world.   The scripture you quote as your premise for the question is one that was directed to the Churches in Asia. Rome isn't in Asia. Someone replied about how trying to make some significant point from a single passage is a tricky slope at best (unless that passage is a direct teaching of Christ) and while I believe the omission of the Roman Catholic church is of little or no significance (because of the aforementioned geographical reference) if you see some significant relevance to a statement on or condemnation of the Catholic church simply by it's omission in this passage, I'm afraid I don't follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
createdequal Posted August 19, 2019 Group: Catholic Followers: 3 Topic Count: 62 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 591 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 96 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/05/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) The Catholic Church has a lot of serious problems but I have learned to separate the meat from the bones. I was raised Catholic and have studied the history of the Church probably a little more extensively than most people have (?). One thing I know for sure:  There was only ONE Christian Church in the world before 1521 and that was the Roman Catholic Church. Therefore, it is not against logic to say that the RCC is the Church Christ founded. All others came AFTER 1521, after martin Luther broke from the RCC (for his own personal, mostly not too valid reasons). Luther broke from the RCC Zwingli broke from Luther others broke from Zwingli and so on and so forth. now there are something like 60,000 (and counting) different denominations of "Christian church" in the world But Jesus established only ONE Church. (If that Church is corrupt or full of hypocrites.. that does not negate that fact. Jesus said "I will be with you until the End"--Mt 28:20 [even if the human side of the Church leaves much to be desired])  Edited August 19, 2019 by createdequal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeauJangles Posted August 19, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 43 Topic Count: 229 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 10,900 Content Per Day: 2.92 Reputation: 12,145 Days Won: 68 Joined: 02/13/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1954 Share Posted August 19, 2019 (edited) On 7/21/2019 at 10:22 PM, R. Hartono said: If apostle Peter established the Roman Catholic Church why there is no confirmation from Lord Jesus in His messages to churches ? This is an except from the OP, because I didn't care to get get tangled up in another thread that continually goes off topic. In answer to the question, the RCC didn't begin until well into 500 AD, so I doubt the Apostle Peter's life endured quite to that time period. Surprisingly enough, the rise of the Roman Catholic church depended on the fall of Rome. In the 5th century, the city of Rome fell to Barbarian invaders. The last emperor to reign from Rome was deposed in 476. The Roman empire did not fall, only the western half fell. Basically, if you look at the map again, everything in green and east remained under the rule of the emperor in Constantinople until the 15th century, when the Turks finally toppled the Roman empire (though it had ceased to be "Roman" a millennium before). A look at the map will reveal that the only church known to be formed by the apostles in the western half of the Roman empire was Rome. No more competition from Constantinople, Antioch, or Alexandria. The bishop of Rome, though he maintained relationship with the emperor and the bishops in the east, was the highest, most respected ecclesiastical authority in the Germanic kingdoms. This was how the bishop of Rome became pope. Protestant theologians argue about which bishop of Rome first had papal powers. (Roman Catholic theologians are under obligation to claim that Linus, the first bishop of Rome, had papal powers.) It doesn't really matter. Once the western half of the empire fell, it was inevitable that the bishop of Rome would be the "go to" person whenever there was controversy. Protestant theologians usually suggest that Pope Gregory the Great, who ruled from AD 590-604, was the first to really have papal powers, so that even kings sought his approval and blessing. Dr. Brendan McGuire, a Catholic historian, has a great series of lectures on the medieval papacy, and he agrees that Pope Gregory was the first to have what the Roman Catholic Church envisions as papal primacy.  Edited August 19, 2019 by BeauJangles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heleadethme Posted August 20, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,371 Content Per Day: 1.36 Reputation: 3,268 Days Won: 5 Joined: 07/10/2017 Status: Offline Share Posted August 20, 2019 (edited) On 7/22/2019 at 1:22 AM, R. Hartono said: Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. LORD JESUS DID NOT SEND ANY MESSAGE TO THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WHO CLAIMED AS THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER. IN OTHER WORDS THERE IS NO CONFIRMATION FROM JESUS. This message was given to apostle John circa 85 AD which was the era of the EARLY CHURCH OF THE APOSTLES where there were only few churches compared to our present era. If apostle Peter established the Roman Catholic Church why there is no confirmation from Lord Jesus in His messages to churches ? There is no star and candle light representing the RCC as they claim to be the One True Apostolic Church and the successor of Peter . I however agree that this message can be the picture of end times churches denomination which were not yet established at that time. This is the CONFIRMED early churches of Jesus Christ which spread to the whole world.   Seven candlesticks represent the seven spirits of God.......so those seven churches are somehow representative of this, though I don't have understanding of that yet. The church of Jesus Christ is one church, one body......God doesn't have millions of 'churches', He only has one church.....and the seven churches in Revelation I believe together we can understand them to represent His whole TRUE church, made up of all TRUE believers wherever they may be found. Edited August 20, 2019 by Heleadethme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. Hartono Posted August 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 771 Topics Per Day: 0.34 Content Count: 6,938 Content Per Day: 3.06 Reputation: 1,979 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/15/2018 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) On 8/20/2019 at 8:23 PM, Heleadethme said: Â we can understand them to represent His whole TRUEÂ church, made up of all TRUEÂ believers wherever they may be found. That can b applied for today but when John rcvd this message there were not found different denoms as we know now, n this has debunked their claim as the successor of Peter Edited August 22, 2019 by R. Hartono 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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