The fulness of the Gentiles

[Gentle-Warrior]

14 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Yes....loss of families, friends and jobs too.  In Israel it's sometimes worse than that.....ongoing persistent harassment, pushing and shoving, gatherings of Orthodox Jews around their property shouting terrible things and throwing garbage onto their properties, loss of livelihoods, having to go to court on trumped up charges, etc, etc......and the police often turn a blind eye.

Amen. What saddens me is how many Christians are in favor of secular and political Israel while never mentioning Christian Palestinians or Jewish believers that suffer persecution under their hands. The very name of "Israel" is like honey to many Christians that turn a blind eye to the abuses they commit. I support democracy, but I don't support abuse. 

[Heleadethme]

37 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Amen. What saddens me is how many Christians are in favor of secular and political Israel while never mentioning Christian Palestinians or Jewish believers that suffer persecution under their hands. The very name of "Israel" is like honey to many Christians that turn a blind eye to the abuses they commit. I support democracy, but I don't support abuse. 

There is none righteous, no not one.  All who don't believe in Christ Jesus are simply lost souls, be they Jew or Gentile....and all need the gospel to be saved and to become righteous.

[choir loft]

On 9/24/2019 at 10:36 AM, iamlamad said:

My my! Don't be afraid to quote the bible!

"Church" is found in a lot of verses. Here is a good one for the church universal:

Hebrews 12:22 

²² But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

²³ To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Another definition would be the body of Christ on earth.

Eph 4:12  For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

All of the population on earth is divided into two groups: those that are born again (a new spirit inside with the Holy Spirit seal in it) and those that are not. Or, those that are IN CHRIST and those that are not.

The big question is, when Jesus comes FOR those that are his, will ALL (100%) of those born again be raised up?  Some certainly think so. I don't. For example, how about someone who is born again but will not forgive someone? They are not qualified.

I disagree with your take on the church in Revelation: from the pretrib rapture (just before the 6th seal) on to the end of the week at the 7th vial, the church is in heaven with Jesus. Of course there will be millions left behind who think of themselves as "christian" but have never been born again. They are not a part of the true church.

"Corporate entity" is not found in the bible. Therefore, forget it! Stick to what is written! Are you born again? That is the important thing.

 

 

 

 

 

It wouldn't make any difference if I quoted scripture from now to the second coming. You wouldn't buy it because you've convinced yourself that the franchise organization is linked to Jesus Christ (even though it denies His lordship).   If it's not licensed by the state and certified by the organization it doesn't exist in the typical mind.

But I DO repeat my assertion: The Bible does NOT describe any such thing as the franchise/corporate church (*), which is what we've got today.  THAT is what has been in place for 1,700 years. 

I dislike your patronizing attitude and find it insulting.  I am well aware of the buzz words and slogans that protestants throw around. My lexicon includes phrases such as "body of Christ", which in the present day includes all members of every church on the planet, not just American protestant evangelicals.  My understanding also includes your references to anti-semitic exclusionist terms such as 'rapture', which again is a form of restriction to American protestant evangelicals.  Anyone not a member of that particular insular group is doomed to hell including but not limited to Jews, Catholics and members of the various Orthodox branches.  

Oh what a glorious thing it is to be an American evangelical.   They are the group of elect persons the Bible talks about.   Just ask one.  They will tell you.  Nobody else is as wonderful and saved as they are.  Nobody else is to be blessed of God as they are.  Nobody else has such elaborate schemes and closed minded fanatics as they do.  The rapture was invented to take this group of cowards out of earth's trouble.  It matters not that Jesus said such a thing would not happen.

"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." - Jesus quoted by John 17:15

Christ's prayer is simple and complete and honest, but no real AMERICAN evangelical would believe it because THEY ARE THE ONLY ones to get an early excusal from troubled times.   They are the only ones that are truly saved.   It matters not that every other "church" on the planet rejects the rapture.  AMERICANS buy it and they will be evacuated because they are so special.

You see, its the American Church that is most important to God.  Jews, Catholics and you name it - they are all excluded because they won't join the exclusionist Americans who are so pig headed they won't even admit their own duplicity.   They are perfect, you see.

But you don't have to believe me, just go to one of these places on any Sunday and listen to how much they claim God's special favor is upon them.

What of the poor sinner, like me, who has no place to go except Jesus?   Sadly, we are not part of the club.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The possible exception is the beast upon which MYSTERY BABYLON MOTHER OF HARLOTS sits.  The beast symbolizes a religious system or organization.

[iamlamad]

13 minutes ago, choir loft said:

 

It wouldn't make any difference if I quoted scripture from now to the second coming. You wouldn't buy it because you've convinced yourself that the franchise organization is linked to Jesus Christ (even though it denies His lordship).   If it's not licensed by the state and certified by the organization it doesn't exist in the typical mind.

But I DO repeat my assertion: The Bible does NOT describe any such thing as the franchise/corporate church (*), which is what we've got today.  THAT is what has been in place for 1,700 years. 

I dislike your patronizing attitude and find it insulting.  I am well aware of the buzz words and slogans that protestants throw around. My lexicon includes phrases such as "body of Christ", which in the present day includes all members of every church on the planet, not just American protestant evangelicals.  My understanding also includes your references to anti-semitic exclusionist terms such as 'rapture', which again is a form of restriction to American protestant evangelicals.  Anyone not a member of that particular insular group is doomed to hell including but not limited to Jews, Catholics and members of the various Orthodox branches.  

Oh what a glorious thing it is to be an American evangelical.   They are the group of elect persons the Bible talks about.   Just ask one.  They will tell you.  Nobody else is as wonderful and saved as they are.  Nobody else is to be blessed of God as they are.  Nobody else has such elaborate schemes and closed minded fanatics as they do.  The rapture was invented to take this group of cowards out of earth's trouble.  It matters not that Jesus said such a thing would not happen.

"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one." - Jesus quoted by John 17:15

Christ's prayer is simple and complete and honest, but no real AMERICAN evangelical would believe it because THEY ARE THE ONLY ones to get an early excusal from troubled times.   They are the only ones that are truly saved.   It matters not that every other "church" on the planet rejects the rapture.  AMERICANS buy it and they will be evacuated because they are so special.

You see, its the American Church that is most important to God.  Jews, Catholics and you name it - they are all excluded because they won't join the exclusionist Americans who are so pig headed they won't even admit their own duplicity.   They are perfect, you see.

But you don't have to believe me, just go to one of these places on any Sunday and listen to how much they claim God's special favor is upon them.

What of the poor sinner, like me, who has no place to go except Jesus?   Sadly, we are not part of the club.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

(*) The possible exception is the beast upon which MYSTERY BABYLON MOTHER OF HARLOTS sits.  The beast symbolizes a religious system or organization.

I am sorry, but "franchise organization" is not even in my vocabulary, nor can I find it in scripture. Therefore it is something coined out of human imagination. It fits nothing in the bible.  The bible speaks of the body of Christ on earth: the church.

It seems I need to explain: the truth church of Jesus Christ (NOT Latter Day Saints) is made up of BORN AGAIN people. (Note carefully, that is a scriptural term.) There are MANY people attending churches around the world that are not born again, so not a part of the "body of Christ" on earth. (term found 4 times in the KJV.)

Sorry, but my attitude is, if it is in the bible, BELIEVE IT. If it cannot be found in the bible, it is probably not worth our time. Do you get offended by the bible? Does God's words offend you? I should hope not!

I am sorry to disagree, but the rapture or catching up  of the church is an event open to ALL, including any Jew or Hebrew who chooses to make Jesus their Lord.  It is in no way "nti-semitic." Well, I guess in a small way it might be seen that way, for the simple fact, most Jews have rejected Jesus as their Messiah.

Just so you know, I solved that false theory that the rapture is an American doctrine: I wrote to many Christians  in various nations of Africa and asked them if they believed in the rapture of the church. Most (like over 90%) said they did. I also asked why, and again they said because it is in the scripture.  It would seem then that you are taking offence at what God wrote - or had Paul write.

The rapture was invented    " ¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air "   Yes, invented by God, and  revealed to Paul.  It is beginning to appear that you spend far too much time in the choir loft and not enough time in bible study.  Perhaps you can crack open your bible next time in the choir loft!

"My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one."

" ¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air "  It seems I again need to explain: no one  has seen people who run to the altar and get saved suddenly disappear! Why is that? Because God chose, not to take them at the time they become His children, out of the world, but to let them live out their life, sharing the gospel with the lost.  I am amazed you did not get that.  Hmmm: seems like there should be a choir song that fits here: oh yes!

"No man careth for my soul," Thus cry the millions!
"No man careth for my soul," Oh, hear their plea!
Won't you give your life today, To spread the gospel,
So that Christ can save their souls and set them free?

Look, if you wish to remain behind, I think the Father knows that already. Just don't blame God for leaving you behind when the true church is caught up and spends the time in heaven that judgment will be poured out on earth. Please, try not to convince others to remain behind with you?

[iamlamad]

19 hours ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

Amen. What saddens me is how many Christians are in favor of secular and political Israel while never mentioning Christian Palestinians or Jewish believers that suffer persecution under their hands. The very name of "Israel" is like honey to many Christians that turn a blind eye to the abuses they commit. I support democracy, but I don't support abuse. 

No one knows the 1/3 that God will bring through the fire and end up believing in Jesus. We can guess that both the 1/3 that comes through the fire, and the 2/3 that don't, are all alive on earth today, perhaps many of them living in Israel today.  I certainly don't want to be enemies to those whom will be with us in the 1000 year rein of Christ! Therefore it is wise to be friends with them all. Who knows? Some might come to know Jesus before the church age ends.

[choir loft]

8 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am sorry, but "franchise organization" is not even in my vocabulary, nor can I find it in scripture. Therefore it is something coined out of human imagination. It fits nothing in the bible.  The bible speaks of the body of Christ on earth: the church.

 

You're a real piece of work.

So intelligent.  So informed.  So erudite.   God has truly blessed all of us mortals with your wisdom.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[choir loft]

On 9/21/2019 at 7:04 PM, dhchristian said:

Dispensation is a word used in scripture, four times it is just a word, nothing more. Darby came well after the Word was translated into English as dispensation, so if he had a time machine then maybe your conspiracy theory has some merit, but he did not. In fact the Word dispensation was used in the very first English translation of scripture done by Wycliffe, which was done in the 1300's. here is the verse and the Word in the Wycliffe translation. ² if nevertheless ye have heard the dispensation of God's grace, that is given to me in you.  (Eph. 3:2, WYC) In fact, Dispensationalism is not a creation of Darby, and goes back to the very early church fathers. For example Irenaeus used Premillennialism in his Against Heresies to confront Gnosticism. Premillennialism is an essential doctrine of Dispensationalism. So that is a blatantly false accusation on your part many of the early church fathers used the term "ages" to describe dispensations, same concept different term.  

Dispensationalism is a theological system of interpretation that sees the scriptures as its central focus. This system of interpretation consists of the following two principles: 1) The scriptures are interpreted in a literal manner, and 2) it makes a distinction between the church and the nation of Israel. Israel is not the church, and the church is not Israel. Dispensationalist generally do not see the church replacing Israel (replacement theology), neither do they see the church as Israel Having to abide by the 613 Laws and ordinances of the Torah. What Christ did on the cross fulfilled the Law and the Torah, and therefore fulfilled the requirements of many of these Laws. For example, we no longer stone people for adultery, and anyone who says we are to abide by the Torah, how come they are not stoning anyone? I Mean, like 50% of marriages end in divorce, right? 

Calvinism is a proponent of replacement theology, in large part, Some are more in the vain of covenant theology, But both replace Israel with the church. Here is a brief distinction made between the three views.Answer: Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel. Among the different views of the relationship between the church and Israel are the church has replaced Israel (replacement theology), the church is an expansion of Israel (covenant theology), or the church is completely different and distinct from Israel (dispensationalism/premillennialism). 

https://www.gotquestions.org/replacement-theology.html

As You can see dispensationalism is not replacement theology, and never will be. So we have another false accusation, saying I am a Calvinist which I am not. Neither am I a covenant theologist which states the church is an expansion of Israel, Because I am a Premillennialist. I Believe in the future restoration of Israel exactly as outlined by Paul in Romans 11. and Spoken of by Jesus in Acts 1:6-8. In Christ Jesus there is neither Jew nor Greek, we become one In Christ Jesus. 

Dispensationalism teaches that God Loves the Jews, That they are the Apple of His eye, and that they will be restored as a nation first, and then they will receive Jesus as their messiah And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zech. 12:10) We see the Jews as enemies of the Gospel, yet beloved in God's eyes, exactly as Paul wrote: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (Romans 11:28) We see their unbelief As Opening the door that we Gentiles might receive mercy and that By their Inclusion in the God's mercy will glorify God In the end times. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!  (Romans 11:30-32) 

The Restoration of Israel, being the restoration of all things unto Christ in fulness. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? (Romans 11:12)

There are a lot of forces and principalities at work on this site and in the World that want to prevent, and think they can prevent this fulness from coming into being. Choir Loft is one of them. As You can see his knowledge of History is Flawed, His accusations come with no basis in fact, as he accuses me of teaching replacement theology, which is obviously not the same as dispensationalism. He calls me a Calvinist, which I am not, He says I want to throw children into hell fire, which not what my views on hell teach, rather that hell is determined by the age of accountability. They are all false accusations, lies, disinformation and misinformation in order to prevent the message of the Fulness of the Gentiles reaching the church, that by our fulness Israel, True Israel, not those who say they are Jews but are not, will be restored in fulness together with us exactly as Romans 11:25 states.

 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25) Read this verse, and you will see exactly how the fulness of the gentiles is tied to the restoration of Israel. And then you will fully understand the last verse of the Old Testament prophecy... 

Unbelievable.........

DISPENSATIONALISM was conceived by John Nelson Darby in the 19th century.   Google it.   Darby is considered to be the father of Dispensationalism.    Educate yourself, please. 

The elements of REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY were affecting Christian theologians long before the birth of John Calvin.  

It's also called SUPERSESSIONISM or FULFILLMENT THEOLOGY and was discussed by persons such as;  Justin Martyr, Hippolytus, Tertullian and Augustine to name a few.   Google it.

Supersessionism/Replacement Theology was rejected by mainstream Christian denominations after World War II because of the holocaust.   Until recently mainstream denominations did not want to appear anti-semitic.  That has changed, however, but that's another subject to be discussed.

The exception to the above is that evangelical or non-denominational churches CONTINUE to embrace Replacement Theology to one degree or another.   They are literally double minded with regard to Jews.   On the one hand they condemn Jews to hell unless Jews join their churches and on the other hand they hold themselves above and beyond the Biblical idea of fellowship in Christ.  Instead of "all being one in Christ" the unsaid provision is that 'all are equal in Christ ONLY IF they join the evangelical church'.   This fine point is what got millions of Jews killed in Europe.   But evangelical Americans are good with it because their minds are set with the double-minded standard they've set up for themselves.  They don't realize that all the world is beginning to laugh at their self-imposed ignorance and illogic.

You quote scripture nicely, except that you have no idea what the words mean.  You cut and paste to suit your particular ideology AND YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW THE ROOTS OF THE IDEAS YOU CLAIM TO SUPPORT.   As long as you can quote a verse or two you're good with it.   You simply don't acknowledge that men older and wiser than you came up with it first.  

Look into it if you dare......  or don't if you fear that your salvation is at risk if you consider it.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...  

  

Edited September 26, 2019 by choir loft

[iamlamad]

17 minutes ago, choir loft said:

You're a real piece of work.

So intelligent.  So informed.  So erudite.   God has truly blessed all of us mortals with your wisdom.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

I am nothing; I just go by what is written. For those that have trouble with what is written:  that is between them and God.

[choir loft]

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

I am nothing; I just go by what is written. For those that have trouble with what is written:  that is between them and God.

Like I said.  My mind withers in the light of your wisdom and interpretation.   You are so fortunate to be so wise and unapproachable in your insight.   

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Gentle-Warrior]

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

No one knows the 1/3 that God will bring through the fire and end up believing in Jesus. We can guess that both the 1/3 that comes through the fire, and the 2/3 that don't, are all alive on earth today, perhaps many of them living in Israel today.  I certainly don't want to be enemies to those whom will be with us in the 1000 year rein of Christ! Therefore it is wise to be friends with them all. Who knows? Some might come to know Jesus before the church age ends.

Covenant Israel was judged in AD 70. That means that the only people that God has and will ever have are those who are in Christ. Jews who come to Christ become part of us and are also called Christians. It is my opinion that the presuppositions and imaginations of the church about the future have gone off the deep end. Most of it is plain fantasy.

I believe in the Second Coming of Christ that will end this era forever in order usher eternity with a new heavens and a new earth where righteousness dwells.