Revenge?

[Guest]

Genesis chapter 4. Verse 15. 

Uf anyone kills Cain, the murderer, their punishment shall be sevenfold. 

Is God telling us that revenge is not our business? What is He saying about crime and punishment? 

 

[Who me]

God dealt with cain direct, If you find a petty theift or murderer who God has spoken to and put a mark of protection on then that would be God deaking with them.

In the giving of the 10commandments God gave the established authorities the authority to deal with theives, rapists, murderes etc etc etc etc etc etc.

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, Melinda12 said:

Genesis chapter 4. Verse 15. 

Uf anyone kills Cain, the murderer, their punishment shall be sevenfold. 

Is God telling us that revenge is not our business? What is He saying about crime and punishment? 

 

Hi, 

God is telling  that He hears the blood of the righteous crying out to Him. He  calls the guilty to account. To the remorsefully afraid he also extends His  mercy even as He punishes. God reconciles that which is not reconcilable. He dies not for the righteous but the unrighteous. He conquers death not for the perfect  and acceptable,  but for the flawed and imperfect. God loves His creation so much that He has suffered even His own wrath in order to save out some of what has fallen to be with Him as He replenishes a new creation. His love is not akin to that of sending a box of chocolates on Valentines Day, but is the doing of love the sacrificing of self for another in deed.

God has mercy even as God has perfect justice. His dealing with Cain is an example of the consistency of God, seen in and throughout the record which is the Bible.

[lovethelord]

Hi Melinda12,

Because God’s authority is just and complete anyone taking Cain’s life out of their own sense of trying to serve justice would be going against God’s righteous judgment. Now of course there are established court systems to take care of criminals (at times I personally think they are a farce).  But we should never take our own revenge.  There are many verses in the Bible that talk about revenge. But this is probably the most recognized.

Romans 12:19, “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

[johnthebaptist]

5 hours ago, Melinda12 said:

Genesis chapter 4. Verse 15. 

Uf anyone kills Cain, the murderer, their punishment shall be sevenfold. 

Is God telling us that revenge is not our business? What is He saying about crime and punishment? 

 

I think he was just protecting Cain.

[lftc]

19 hours ago, Who me said:

In the giving of the 10commandments God gave the established authorities the authority to deal with theives, rapists, murderes etc etc etc etc etc etc.

As the 10 commandments are the prelude and repeated througout the other 600+ commandments, you are correct.

Too bad no authority on earth is anywhere close to these.  Begs the question as to the origin of their authority.  But that is too disruptive of a topic.

[lftc]

21 hours ago, Melinda12 said:

Genesis chapter 4. Verse 15. 

Uf anyone kills Cain, the murderer, their punishment shall be sevenfold. 

Is God telling us that revenge is not our business? What is He saying about crime and punishment? 

 

Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment

- that is from James 2

For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings - From Hosea (read the whole book and understand why it ends like it does)

Then My Lord and Savior, Jesus the Christ says: "But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.^"

God does directly tell us that revenge is not a state of mind that someone submitted to God should be involved in.  In numerous places, in many different ways.

For those that use the Sermon on the Mount as New Law, Jesus there gave us what is often referred to as the Lord's Prayer.  Wherein he says "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us".  After saying the Prayer, he elaborates on that part saying that if you do not forgive those who sin against you, then your sins are not forgiven. 

That is a stunning requirement, if you are still depending on your works to keep you saved.  That is why Jesus gave it and the other commands like it:  when we finally believe mercy?  Not in conjunction to law, but like James says Mercy TRIUMPHS over judgement.  There can be no triumph unless there is conflict.

But if and when you finally believe in mercy, how can you ever seek revenge?

For many, the solution is to redefine mercy into something that only makes a difference on the other side of death.

Your last question, as to what that means for Crime and Punishment, is a very important topic especially in this age where government, the creator, adjudicator and executioner of Law (Crime and Punishment) in each region of the world, is rapidly changing into a an entity not recognizable for the mind that loves God's law (as the Psalms say sometimes).

Edited October 1, 2019 by lftc
changes "Not in opposition to law" to "Not in conjunction to law"

[Neighbor]

1 hour ago, lftc said:

Begs the question as to the origin of their authority. 

Well , one has to deal with what God has  sovereignly saved for each of us to read and heed regading the source of authority:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,  for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.  For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.  Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed." 

And who are governing authorities? Does it include all,  or some, or none of; nation, state, county, city, neighborhood association, parish, Christian church  leadership and the entirety of the church body?

[lftc]

21 minutes ago, Neighbor said:

Well , one has to deal with what God has  sovereignly saved for each of us to read and heed regading the source of authority:

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval,  for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience.  For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing.  Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed." 

And who are governing authorities? Does it include all,  or some, or none of; nation, state, county, city, neighborhood association, parish, Christian church  leadership and the entirety of the church body?

Perfect phrasing of the question. 

As I'm sure you are aware, Peter gives an almost identical statement.  With some more enlightenment as well. 

[JustPassingThru]

3 hours ago, lftc said:

As the 10 commandments are the

...basis of the Judeo-Christian morals and ethics of the "experiment" of establishing a nation called the United States of America, ...sadly we see the more these morals and ethics are erased and overlooked in the governing laws of the "experiment" we see the nation rapidly sliding into the debauchery of the rest of the world!