The Seven Heads of Daniel 7 and Rev. 17

[breathoflife]

This is anti-Christ making war on the faithful remnant and he is prevailing over them this what brings on the Day of the Lord. Same thing happened in 70 ad when the Jerusalem church was about to be wiped out instead The Lord used Rome to save His church.

I already said the Lord is using them. Using something evil does not change their intrinsic evil nature

[douggg]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Hmmmm. 

²¹ As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them

²² Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High [God], and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

Please tell us where or when in history this took place. Perhaps you imagine that verse 21 was history but 22 is future?

It is Interesting, John tells us that some time in our future the Beast will be prevailing over the saints - which most people think is exactly what Daniel is talking about.

verse 21 and verse 22 are future.

The little horn is not one of the (Daniel 7) seven head group.

(kingdom one) babylon - head one

(kingdom two)  greece - heads four

(kingdom thee)  persia - heads two

Total - 7 heads.   (historic)    

__________________________________________

The little horn is an end times king (leader) the fourth kingdom,the Roman Empire.     The yet to come king of Revelation 17:10

little horn - (7th) king of the Roman Empire end times, he will be democratically selected.

Antichrist - king of Israel (for a while)

beast - (8th) king of the Roman Empire end times, dictator.

The 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 are all of one family.    The only difference is end times king 7 will be possessed by the spirit currently in bottomless pit when he becomes king 8.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by douggg

[Diaste]

On 10/3/2019 at 8:06 AM, iamlamad said:

 

Summary: don't confuse the PHYSICAL with the SPIRITUAL, and vice versa.

Yes, you should not do that.

[iamlamad]

15 hours ago, breathoflife said:

This is anti-Christ making war on the faithful remnant and he is prevailing over them this what brings on the Day of the Lord. Same thing happened in 70 ad when the Jerusalem church was about to be wiped out instead The Lord used Rome to save His church.

I already said the Lord is using them. Using something evil does not change their intrinsic evil nature

Please, BofL, can we just follow what is written? Don't take my word for it, go back and look: the Day of the Lord starts at the 6th seal, the 70th week starts at the 7th seal. The days of GT are not until chapter 15!  The time when the man of sin turned Beast prevails over the faithful is in the SECOND HALF of the week, which begins in chapter 11 at the 7th trumpet.

The day of the Lord starts in chapter 6 at the 6th seal.
Jesus coming is not until chapter 19, over 7 years later.

What REALLY "brings on" the Day of the Lord? The rapture of the church will be the trigger for the Day. The day starts His wrath and we are out of here before His wrath - but JUST before.

[iamlamad]

13 hours ago, douggg said:

verse 21 and verse 22 are future.

The little horn is not one of the (Daniel 7) seven head group.

(kingdom one) babylon - head one

(kingdom two)  greece - heads four

(kingdom thee)  persia - heads two

Total - 7 heads.   (historic)    

__________________________________________

The little horn is an end times king (leader) the fourth kingdom,the Roman Empire.     The yet to come king of Revelation 17:10

little horn - (7th) king of the Roman Empire end times, he will be democratically selected.

Antichrist - king of Israel (for a while)

beast - (8th) king of the Roman Empire end times, dictator.

The 7 kings of Revelation 17:10 are all of one family.    The only difference is end times king 7 will be possessed by the spirit currently in bottomless pit when he becomes king 8.

 

 

⁵ And behold another beast, a second one [the Medo-Persian empire], was like a bear, and it raised up itself on one side [or one dominion] and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and it was told, Arise, devour much flesh.

⁶ After this I looked, and behold, another [the Grecian empire of Alexander the Great], like a leopard which had four wings of a bird on its back. The beast had also four heads [Alexander’s generals, his successors], and dominion was given to it.  (Amp.)

Sorry, but Persia was seen as a bear with only one head. (you cannot ad lib a head to fit a theory.)

Babylon - lion - one head

Medo-Persia  - bear - one head

Greece - leopard - four wings (speed) and four heads (4 generals)

Rome - fourth beast - one head but ten horns, out of which grew an 11th: the Little Horn which took out 3 horns.

Count them up: 1 plus 1 plus 4  plus 1 = 7

These were ancient kingdoms: Persia conquered Babylon. Greece conquered Persia, but WHO conquered Rome? No one nation: she just faded into oblivion over time.

However:

²¹ As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them

²² Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High [God], and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

And:

¹² As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This also is END TIMES!  It is a perfect picture of what happened in history, but it is an end times vision.

[breathoflife]

that certainly sounds good if we ignore Scripture. I would love following what is written but that is not what you do. The Day of the Lord begins at the beginning of the last week of years and culminates 7 years later with the physical return  of the King. If it is over 7 years later then the 70 Weeks of Years is a worthless prophecy 70 Weeks of Years 490 years are decreed for your people and your city. When the Lord returns it is because the faithful remnant is about to be destroyed and the Lord descends on the Mount of Olives opening a valley for the remnant to escape through. From this point on the only Jewish people on the entire face of the earth are the remnant. From this Day of the Lord until a 1,000 tears later it is apostate Gentiles who when Satan is released  are deceived by him and who come against the royal nation of priests the remnant has become. With the Gentile armies coming against the remnant of Israel the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord takes place. Satan is defeated cast into the Lake of Fire. The defeated Gentile nations become a feast for the birds of the air. This is how the time of the end plays out. 

P.S. don't forget that the Bride is in heaven preparing herself as a Bride for the entire seven tear period you are speaking about. We are removed in chapter 4 when we exit here through The Door after He calls us up there. 

[breathoflife]

what saints are you speaking about? Those in heaven preparing themselves as the Bride? Do they take a break from that tedious preparing as a bride? Of course that would entail the Bride coming back into a fallen creation which is something the Lord does not want His Bride soiled. Are they the Faithful Remnant? Maybe they are those who washed their robes in blood during the tribulation period. These seven kings you are speaking about are all Gentile nations the kingdom that is coming is different from all the kingdoms that came before it. It will be a Jewish kingdom. I already demonstrated from Scripture that Israel is going to break into a two nation kingdom one portion having two tribes and the other kingdom consists of 10 kingdoms of who three are plucked up leaving the harlot mystery Babylon with 7 kings a nation who has never ruled and is about as different from the Gentile nations as you can get. The little horn Is anti_Christ and he comes up from the other horns. Anti-Christ is going to be raised up in the Land, Israel.

[douggg]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but Persia was seen as a bear with only one head. (you cannot ad lib a head to fit a theory.)

I got a little carried away because it is generally called the Medo-Persian empire.

____________________________________________________________________

I don't see the four heads on the leopard, assuming they are  Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy, Seleucus, as significant enough to be four of the heads in Revelation 17:10. 

The text of Revelation 17:10 indicates 7 kings, not kingdoms.   Why are you wanting to re-translate that?

Edited October 5, 2019 by douggg

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, Da Puppers said:

A beast is a kingdom,  a singular kingdom.   It does not represent the one ruling over that kingdom,  or the nations giving the authority the beast.   The beast is the sovereign kingdom.   The HORNS represent the nations subordinate to the beast.   The HEADS are rulers/ heads of state as pertaining to the beast.   The head that suffers the mortal head wound is the human leader that is singled out as dying.   You recognize that the little horn leads the 10 horns to attack Israel.   Your personal mythology is in believing that thete are 2 sets of 10 kings.   This has no scriptural basis and is in fact refuted by Daniel 7.

Dan 7:11 KJV I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Here we have a distinguishing of the beast from his body,  the kingdom from its ruler.   It is the little horn that breaks the whole world into pieces. 

Dan 7:23 KJV Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

This is what we found in Daniel 2 when the KOG is set up.   These kingdoms shall be "broken into pieces" together,  at the same time... in the days of these kings.   You have no scripture supporting your claim of two sets of 10 kings.   This kingdom of 10 horns,  however it is viewed, as the beast, will no longer be a kingdom of 10 horns,  once they are broken into pieces.   

The big picture of Rev 17 is the judgment of Jerusalem.  And that judgment is the destruction and burning of Jerusalem.   The picture that is painted there is: 

1. A city decked with riches and glory. 

2. At a time BEFORE the 7th and 8th kings have arisen.   

As you know,  Jerusalem was not in a state of riches & glory at the time Revelation was written.   It is a foreview of Jerusalem sometime future to the authoring of the book.   When is it referring to?  

1. It is before it is destroyed,  

2. In the days of the 6th king. 

It is explicitly stated that five kings HAVE fallen,  the 6th one is in power at that time,  and the 7th one is yet to arise for his "hour of glory".  Zechariah tells us that when this attack on Jerusalem takes place,  the Lord will be king over all the earth and she shall be safely inhabited after that and nothing that defiles or unholy shall enter there after.  He even says that it is the Day of the Lord.  This can hardly fit into the last of the 70th week.  Your belief of a subsequent attack on Jerusalem by another 10 kings is both without scriptural support and is contrary to scripture.   This picture of Jerusalem in Rev 17 is a picture of how the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her and brought great prosperity to her leading up to her judgment.   This is exactly what we see in Jeremiah 25.  The Lord sends a drunken spirit of delusion to the kings of the earth and when HE initiates judgment upon her,  he states that he has a controversy with the nations and they shall not escape.  The dead shall be scattered over the whole earth in that day. 

You need to rethink your views on when this judgment upon Jerusalem takes place. 

Be Blessed 

The PuP 
 

A beast is a kingdom,  a singular kingdom.   It does not represent the one ruling over that kingdom  Let's see:

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Does this sound like an empire or a man? Of course it is a MAN  - in fact TWO men that are throne into the lake of fire here.  Therefore a Beast is both a PERSON and a kingdom. We can only tell which by the context.  You did not start out well.

The beast is the sovereign kingdom.  Yes, AND the man behind the kingdom.

The HORNS represent the nations subordinate to the beast. The ten horns that throw in with the Beast in the last hour: would then be kings that were deceived by the Beast? Do they at this time think the Beast is the God of creation? I  just don't know if they are still deceived. My guess is, they are. Of course if they think the Beast is the God of creation, they would certainly be "subordinate."

The head that suffers the mortal head wound is the human leader that is singled out as dying.  Well, Saddam certainly died.  if one of the heads was Babylon, now Iraq, Saddam would fit.

2 sets of 10 kings.   This has no scriptural basis and is in fact refuted by Daniel 7  It is in fact obvious. There are 10 reduced to 7 - probably around the midpoint of the week. Yet, at the final hour there is 1o. It has to be a DIFFERENT ten.

Dan 7:11 KJV I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.  Good verse PROVING a "beast" can be both the man and his kingdom. This verse disagrees with your first sentence.

Here we have a distinguishing of the beast from his body,  the kingdom from its ruler. Agreed.

 These kingdoms shall be "broken into pieces" together,  at the same time... in the days of these kings.   Agreed. This must be the ten kings that throw in with the beast at the final hour, for there are ten, not seven.

You have no scripture supporting your claim of two sets of 10 kings.  The scripture you just showed! It is at the end and there is ten, not seven.

And that judgment is the destruction and burning of Jerusalem.  You have this right. Good job. The vast majority of people still imagine it is all false religion.

2. At a time BEFORE the 7th and 8th kings have arisen.  Now you have gone into myth. It is at the last "hour" that Jerusalem is attacked. For most of the last half of the week, it is the Beast's headquarters, and he spends that time shipping in all kinds of riches. So much it makes those shipping very rich.

2. In the days of the 6th king.   Where do you get this stuff? It is the BEAST that brings wealth and riches into the city, during his reign as the god he is imitating. ll this is in the last 3.5 years.  Rome did not make Jerusalem a city of wealth. neither did a thousand years of Muslim rule. It is still not as described here in chapter 17. All this happens when the BEAST makes Jerusalem his headquarters.

He even says that it is the Day of the Lord.  This can hardly fit into the last of the 70th week.   Why can't you just follow what is written? Why try to change it? the DAY starts at the 6th seal as written. The WEEK starts at the 7th seal and continues to the 7th vial. The DAY is still very much on-going through the week. The 70th week is INSIDE the Day of the Lord. But the week ends and THE DAY continues on. So OF COURSE it fits.

Your belief of a subsequent attack on Jerusalem by another 10 kings is both without scriptural support and is contrary to scripture.   It is NOT a "subsequent" attack: it is THE attack as written.

Revelation 17:16  And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Revelation 18:8  Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

WHEN is this attack? What chapter is it in? The week ENDS at the 16th chapter. This is either very late in the week or after the week has ended. It is still the Day of the Lord.  Can you find an attack on Jerusalem in chapters 6 through 15? If you find it, show us!

 

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, douggg said:

I got a little carried away because it is generally called the Medo-Persian empire.

____________________________________________________________________

I don't see the four heads on the leopard, assuming they are  Lysimachus, Cassander, Ptolomy, Seleucus, as significant enough to be four of the heads in Revelation 17:10. 

The text of Revelation 17:10 indicates 7 kings, not kingdoms.   Why are you wanting to re-translate that?

Apparently they were that important to God. After all, He had Daniel write chapter 8 about it, and about Antiochus.

The text of Revelation 17:10 indicates 7 kings, not kingdoms.

It is simple:

 The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

¹⁰ And there are seven kings

The mountains are the empires of the 7 kings. Kings usually have empires.