seeking the lost Posted October 16, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 495 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 208 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 16, 2019 6 hours ago, WilliamL said: And you choose too ignore the resurrection of Jesus et. al. as being resurrections. If ANY resurrection can be accepted as the first/protos in time/order, it would be the resurrection. It is you that is adding to the revelation of John by stating that -- "The first resurrection is the first in time that counts as a resurrection in the revelation given to John." Nothing in Revelation signifies the exclusivity of the protos resurrection to that book alone. John is aware of all that you are calling resurrections and yet he does not refer to them as such. John tells us of the resurrection at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the thousand years and calls it the first resurrection. John also defines the limits and purpose of this resurrection. I, by being faithful to what he has written am not adding to his word. John has given us an account of what was reveled to him. As he is faithful to that revelation there is a warning not to add to it or take away from it. Revelation 22: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. My position is to not impose anything upon the writing that will alter or change what is written. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamL Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 99 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 5,111 Content Per Day: 1.48 Reputation: 2,551 Days Won: 4 Joined: 11/06/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/01/1950 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/15/2019 at 7:26 PM, seeking the lost said: My position is to not impose anything upon the writing that will alter or change what is written. My position also, except that "what is written" for me includes the use of the whole Bible, not a selection from single verse from a single book of the Bible. The latter practice often results in all kinds of false doctrines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 495 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 208 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2019 4 hours ago, WilliamL said: My position also, except that "what is written" for me includes the use of the whole Bible, not a selection from single verse from a single book of the Bible. The latter practice often results in all kinds of false doctrines. Yes. We must pay attention to the prayer and the teaching of Jesus along with other things. The prayer and hearts desire of Jesus is stated in John 17. 13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by[d] the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. It is not the desire of Jesus to take us out of the world. Jesus taught that the tares would be gathered first and then the wheat would be gathered into the kingdom. Matthew 13:29-31 King James Version (KJV) 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Jesus taught that the resurrection of the believer would be at the last day. John 6: 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The last day is at the end of the thousand years. That is the day after which there are no other days as we know them. Paul teaches that living believers will not precede those that are asleep in Christ. 1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. Believers are raised up at the last day when the books are opened and the sheep are separated from the goats. There is no early out and no place that we can add to the scripture or the teachings of Jesus to have an early resurrection. These are some of the reasons that I hold to not adding to the writings of John. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted October 22, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,249 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 672 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2019 2 hours ago, seeking the lost said: Jesus taught that the resurrection of the believer would be at the last day. John 6: 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. The last day is at the end of the thousand years. That is the day after which there are no other days as we know them. Hi seeking the lost, This is an interesting statement. If we, all believers in Christ, are not resurrected until the end of the thousand years, the millennium, then what is the purpose of that 1000 year period? If Jesus rules and reigns on the earth during that 1000 year period, and we are told that we will rule and reign with Him, then how is it that we are not resurrected until after the 1000 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted October 23, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 495 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 208 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2019 20 hours ago, JoeCanada said: Hi seeking the lost, This is an interesting statement. If we, all believers in Christ, are not resurrected until the end of the thousand years, the millennium, then what is the purpose of that 1000 year period? If Jesus rules and reigns on the earth during that 1000 year period, and we are told that we will rule and reign with Him, then how is it that we are not resurrected until after the 1000 years? That is an interesting question. I would submit to you the scripture of 2 Timothy 2: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: This would seem to indicate that only those that suffer such as the martyrs will reign with Christ. It is the martyrs that are raised in the first resurrection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2019 21 hours ago, JoeCanada said: Hi seeking the lost, This is an interesting statement. If we, all believers in Christ, are not resurrected until the end of the thousand years, the millennium, then what is the purpose of that 1000 year period? If Jesus rules and reigns on the earth during that 1000 year period, and we are told that we will rule and reign with Him, then how is it that we are not resurrected until after the 1000 years? 18 minutes ago, seeking the lost said: That is an interesting question. I would submit to you the scripture of 2 Timothy 2: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: This would seem to indicate that only those that suffer such as the martyrs will reign with Christ. It is the martyrs that are raised in the first resurrection. It seems that your answer can be found in Revelation 20:1-6 NKJV Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted October 23, 2019 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 495 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 208 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2019 25 minutes ago, OneLight said: It seems that your answer can be found in Revelation 20:1-6 NKJV Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Thank you for that clarification. Not all believers reign with Christ during the thousand years. All believers should be reigning in this life now by one Christ Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted October 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2019 6 minutes ago, seeking the lost said: Thank you for that clarification. Not all believers reign with Christ during the thousand years. All believers should be reigning in this life now by one Christ Jesus. I am not sure what you mean by your last sentence, but my only reason to post what I did was to bring scripture into the discussion for clarification, as you said. I would be interested in viewing scripture that clearly states that all Christians will reign with Christ during His 1000 year reign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingnut- Posted October 23, 2019 Group: Royal Member Followers: 39 Topic Count: 101 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,673 Content Per Day: 1.31 Reputation: 7,358 Days Won: 67 Joined: 04/22/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/15/2019 at 9:26 PM, seeking the lost said: John is aware of all that you are calling resurrections and yet he does not refer to them as such. John is reporting the Revelation of Jesus Christ regarding the end times, in which there are only 2 resurrections, one for the living (believers dead or alive), and one for the dead (unbelievers). I understand you don't see this yet, but here are a couple of questions for you to consider. First, how did the 24 elders get to heaven? At what point were they resurrected? The next question is related to your reference to the parables, where we are told the tares are gathered first. The thing to keep in mind here is the process by which wheat is harvested. The field is cut down, and the wheat is left to sit in the sun for 3 days before it produces the finishing touches to bring forth the finest grain. So the harvest itself of the wheat is not when it is gathered, but when the field is cut. Now, considering this and what we are told by John in Revelation regarding the gathering of the elect and their resurrection coming before the resurrection of the tares, doesn't that indicate that the resurrection is not the moment in which the gathering of the tares occurs? What happens to an unbeliever when they die? Where do they go? Perhaps that is the question to be answered. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCanada Posted October 24, 2019 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 9 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,249 Content Per Day: 0.55 Reputation: 672 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/26/2018 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2019 4 hours ago, seeking the lost said: That is an interesting question. I would submit to you the scripture of 2 Timothy 2: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: This would seem to indicate that only those that suffer such as the martyrs will reign with Christ. It is the martyrs that are raised in the first resurrection. There are a number of versions that say...."If we endure" But if we go with "If we suffer"......then we have to ask what kind of suffering is this. Is it only physical suffering, like martyrs? Could it be spiritual/emotional suffering.......like the prophets of old who suffered for the sins of their fellow countrymen? Or the people who suffer shame and reproach, loss of reputation or goods, loss of jobs or family just for being a Christian, corporeal punishment, or maybe even death itself? Suffering should be defined. It's not only suffering a martyrs death. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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