The parable of the Tares

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

To those of us who are sojourners in this world, we KNOW this world is not our home, And We know the LORD is coming to get us to be with Him where he is that we may be with him for eternity. If You feel that Jesus is coming to whisk you away into the air just to transport you to Jerusalem, then you are missing the whole point of the resurrection. Might as well have some aliens in space ship be your savior then if you know what I mean?

Jesus was not saying that we will be with him in Jerusalem when he returns he is saying we will be with him wherever he goes, yes for a time that is Jerusalem a Pit stop along the way as I stated, but eternity is where God dwells, and Jesus is the LORD.

So I will ask you, Where are you "laying up your treasures?" I Know mine are being stored in heaven where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, Not in the sky or the clouds. You see, the Word Ouranos has multiple meanings, which must be gleaned from the context of the passage. In Matthew 6:20, the obvious meaning of heaven is the place where God dwells, not the clouds or even outer space, Or are you planning on sending your treasures on a rocket into space, If you know what I mean? For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. (Matthew 6:21)

Do you at least see how ridiculous your application of Ouranos as the sky is in this passage, well we are saying the same for the other passages referred to here. We are not just going to meet him in the air, but we are going to live with Him in heaven, the abode of God. We KNOW this because the Spirit bears witness to this, Not to mention I am not sending my treasures up on a rocket ship to outer space, but rather to Heaven, which is my home....

Shalom, dhchristian.

Why is it that, whenever someone says something DIFFERENT than you believe, you have to ridicule what he or she said?

Ah! But this "world" (actually "earth") IS our eternal home! Haven't you noticed yet that God is bringing us back to the days of the Garden of Eden? He's RE-CREATING everything to make it as He originally wanted us to live! Look at all the similarities between Genesis 1 and 2 and Revelation 21 and 22! We were created for the earth and the earth was created for us!

A wise preacher I once knew gave us the outline for the Bible as such:

I. What ought to be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from what is to what ought to be - Genesis 4-Revelation 22

In all of the Scriptures, there is absolutely NOWHERE where we are told "we go to heaven and live happily ever after!" We ARE sojourning through this evil world system until we get to GOD'S government - an ETERNAL Kingdom. The New Jerusalem will be our "house" our Home on the New Earth, and the New Earth will be our "backyard." WE DON'T GO TO "HEAVEN!" "HEAVEN" (THE NEW JERUSALEM) COMES HERE!!! (To the NEW Earth, that is.)

Regarding Matthew 6:20-21, do you understand that the NIGHT sky shows the stars? Wherever the New Jerusalem is being built right now, it would make the best sense that it is built in open space with little influence by gravity. See, crystals are formed best if the molecular bonds are made with little outside influence. If the lattice can be formed consistently and orderly, one crystal can be made without any deformities no matter how big it must be.

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, dhchristian.

Why is it that, whenever someone says something DIFFERENT than you believe, you have to ridicule what he or she said?

Ah! But this "world" (actually "earth") IS our eternal home! Haven't you noticed yet that God is bringing us back to the days of the Garden of Eden? He's RE-CREATING everything to make it as He originally wanted us to live! Look at all the similarities between Genesis 1 and 2 and Revelation 21 and 22! We were created for the earth and the earth was created for us!

A wise preacher I once knew gave us the outline for the Bible as such:

I. What ought to be - Genesis 1, 2
II. What is - Genesis 3
III. How to get from what is to what ought to be - Genesis 4-Revelation 22

In all of the Scriptures, there is absolutely NOWHERE where we are told "we go to heaven and live happily ever after!" We ARE sojourning through this evil world system until we get to GOD'S government - an ETERNAL Kingdom. The New Jerusalem will be our "house" our Home on the New Earth, and the New Earth will be our "backyard." WE DON'T GO TO "HEAVEN!" "HEAVEN" (THE NEW JERUSALEM) COMES HERE!!! (To the NEW Earth, that is.)

Regarding Matthew 6:20-21, do you understand that the NIGHT sky shows the stars? Wherever the New Jerusalem is being built right now, it would make the best sense that it is built in open space with little influence by gravity. See, crystals are formed best if the molecular bonds are made with little outside influence. If the lattice can be formed consistently and orderly, one crystal can be made without any deformities no matter how big it must be.

I Was not ridiculing you, I was expressing my Point, am I not allowed to do that? A rather Good argument I might add that you are unable to refute without stretching the Word of God to say something it is not. Where does it say in the Bible he is recreating Eden? where does the Bible say that man was made to be earthbound? Quite the contrary it says we will be made Equal to the angels, and we are "sons of God" by adoption through Christ Jesus and the cross.

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

And being Equal, we will be heavenly beings like they are, and we will even be higher being a part of the family of God By adoption as sons. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)

What You are doing is reading scripture with Natural lenses in your eyes, and Not Supernatural lenses. No where does scripture say we are going back to Eden. No where does it say the New Jerusalem is being built in outer space. There is a Carnal World, and a Spiritual world, One is visible the other invisible to Human intellect and vision. You are operating in the carnal world and your understanding and reading of scripture is based on that carnal vision. This is not an insult, but a Word to encourage you to "Buy some Spiritual eye salve that you may see... (Rev. 3:18)

Of course, you are welcome to send your treasures up to space on a rocket ship, but that is not going to do you any good in Heaven and it will cost you a pretty penny. 

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Look back to your other post and you will see you quoted other scripture.

Now we should be using scripture to interpret scripture. God knows what He means. You seem to think you can interpret for God.

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

When Paul talks and the Messiah talks, whose words should carry the most weight?

Yeshua` laid out all the elements of this parable. And, He gave us a beautifully rendered explanation of the parable. All we need to do is substitute the elements of the parable within the parable itself. Let's see how this is done:

Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, 

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world (Greek aioonos = "age");
and the reapers are the angels. 

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek aioonos = "age"). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Okay, so Yeshua` gave us seven elements:

1. The sower = the Son of man
2. The field = the world-system of government
3. The good seed (wheat) = children OF THE KINGDOM
4. The tares (look-alike weeds) = children of the wicked one
5. The enemy = the devil (the slanderer)
6. The harvest = the end of the age
7. The reapers (harvesters) = the messengers

Now, let's plug these into the parable:

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto the Son of man which sowed children of the Kingdom in his world-system of government: 25 But while men slept, his slanderer came and sowed children of the wicked one among the children of the Kingdom, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the children of the wicked one also. 27 So the messengers of the Son of man came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow children of the Kingdom in thy world-system of government? from whence then hath it children of the wicked one? 28 He said unto them, The slanderer hath done this. The messengers said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the children of the wicked one, ye root up also the children of the Kingdom with them. 30 Let both grow together until the end of the age: and in the time of the end of the age I will say to the messengers, Gather ye together first the children of the wicked one, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the children of the Kingdom into my barn."

And, add the explanation:

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his messengers, and they shall gather OUT of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity (the children of the wicked one); 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Just as we must recognize the difference between God (the Father) and the Son of God (Yeshua` the Messiah), so too we must recognize the difference between the Kingdom of God (the Kingdom of the Father) and the Kingdom of the Son of God (the Kingdom of the Messiah). And the difference was given to us by Paul in the Resurrection Chapter (which is why I quoted it).

Paul may not have heard the parable directly, but you can be sure that one of Yeshua`s disciples told Him about the parable and Yeshua`s interpretation of that parable, and the key may be in the first 11 verses:

1 Corinthians 15:1-11 (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles (sent ones). 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

 

[Marilyn C]

34 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

When Paul talks and the Messiah talks, whose words should carry the most weight?

 

Hi Retro,

Actually it is the Lord Himself by the Holy Spirit speaking to the believers through the Apostle Paul.

Now I do agree that there will be the final sorting out after the millennium, however you seem to miss those scriptures I posted regarding a sorting out when the Lord comes after the trib.

I also agree concerning the kingdom/rule of the Lord and the Kingdom/rule of the Father.

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

16 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

I Was not ridiculing you, I was expressing my Point, am I not allowed to do that? A rather Good argument I might add that you are unable to refute without stretching the Word of God to say something it is not. Where does it say in the Bible he is recreating Eden? where does the Bible say that man was made to be earthbound? Quite the contrary it says we will be made Equal to the angels, and we are "sons of God" by adoption through Christ Jesus and the cross.

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

And being Equal, we will be heavenly beings like they are, and we will even be higher being a part of the family of God By adoption as sons. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)

What You are doing is reading scripture with Natural lenses in your eyes, and Not Supernatural lenses. No where does scripture say we are going back to Eden. No where does it say the New Jerusalem is being built in outer space. There is a Carnal World, and a Spiritual world, One is visible the other invisible to Human intellect and vision. You are operating in the carnal world and your understanding and reading of scripture is based on that carnal vision. This is not an insult, but a Word to encourage you to "Buy some Spiritual eye salve that you may see... (Rev. 3:18)

Of course, you are welcome to send your treasures up to space on a rocket ship, but that is not going to do you any good in Heaven and it will cost you a pretty penny. 

Shalom, dhchristian.

Your arguments are based upon the definitions you have chosen for certain words. IF those definitions changed, you'd be surprised at how your view of ... EVERYTHING will change.

You're not ready, yet. So, I apologize for giving you information you're not ready to receive. The Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) will have to show you this information a bite at a time, in His timing.

Good to talk with you anyway.

[dhchristian]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, dhchristian.

Your arguments are based upon the definitions you have chosen for certain words. IF those definitions changed, you'd be surprised at how your view of ... EVERYTHING will change.

You're not ready, yet. So, I apologize for giving you information you're not ready to receive. The Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God) will have to show you this information a bite at a time, in His timing.

Good to talk with you anyway.

Your arguments are based on definitions for words you've chosen to mean such as Ouranos, which you have limited to only mean carnal things such as clouds sky and stars, rather than Heaven, the Abode of God. I am sorry you are unable to see this. Perhaps you do not want to see this? 

BTW, you can take your Elitist "secret knowledge" with you as well, That is not how God operates in this world, instead he reveals Himself to those who seek Him, The Spirit of Truth being our Guide as we Sojourn in this world. In fact He tends to use the simple and not so highminded to do his will.

 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. (1 cor. 1:26-31) 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Your arguments are based on definitions for words you've chosen to mean such as Ouranos, which you have limited to only mean carnal things such as clouds sky and stars, rather than Heaven, the Abode of God. I am sorry you are unable to see this. Perhaps you do not want to see this? 

BTW, you can take your Elitist "secret knowledge" with you as well, That is not how God operates in this world, instead he reveals Himself to those who seek Him, The Spirit of Truth being our Guide as we Sojourn in this world. In fact He tends to use the simple and not so highminded to do his will.

 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. (1 cor. 1:26-31)

Shalom, dhchristian.

I'm not going anywhere. I belong here. God put me here, and I will obey Him.

It's not "secret knowledge"; it's knowledge that is "verboten." Why? It's simply because it frightens the tar out of people! If I'm right, then what else may one be wrong about? One simply has trouble wrapping his or her mind around the possibility that there may be some discontinuity in life!

One IS an "air-breather," a "soul," while he or she is alive. When one stops breathing, they are no longer an "air-breather" (duh!), and thus they are no longer a "soul," by definition! Their breath is their "spirit" for that is what the word "spirit" means. (Technically, it means "wind" but by implication is also refers to "blowing (like the wind)" or "breath.") So, when one's breath goes back to God, it is indistinguishable from any other "wind" or "movement of air molecules." Thus, there is a discontinuity in one's life as they "sleep," awaiting the Resurrection, and we trust God to remember us and resurrect us as He promised to do for those whom He loves. This is not "soul sleep" because there's no "soul" to sleep!

When one is resurrected, it will be just like Adam was first created.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

As I've said in other threads, YHWH Elohiym (the LORD God) formed the "MAN," not the "body of a man," out of "the dust of the ground." And, the "MAN" "became a living air-breather."

5315 nefesh (neh'-fesh). From naafash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental) -- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naafash (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air) -- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

THAT'S what a "soul" is!

You claim that my definition of "ouranos" being "the sky" is "carnal." Does that mean that Yeshua` the Messiah was being carnal in His response to the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16?

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say,
'It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red.'

3 And in the morning,
'It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red and lowring.'

O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: ho ... prosoopon tou ouranou); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

They were asking for a "sign from Heaven" and He gave them “Red sky at night, sailor’s delight. Red sky at morning, sailors take warning.” And, why is it that when the Scriptures use the SAME word in back-to-back verses they "can't possibly be talking about the same thing!" How would those who speak Greek (or even Hebrew or Aramaic) know there was supposed to be a difference? If they did NOT know (or care), then why did the translator decide to translate verse 1 as "heaven" and verses 2 and 3 as "sky" in this English translation? (And, other translations are just as guilty.)

Face it; you've been DUPED into thinking that we "go to heaven when we die." This whole theory comes from Greek mythology that became a part of the teachings of Christianity thanks in large part to Origen.

[iamlamad]

On 10/16/2019 at 5:44 AM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

Sorry, but why would you quote from other sources for the parable in Matthew 13? The parable of our Lord DICTATES the timing! It's not at the end of "this age" in which you're thinking that the end of this age is marked by the Second Coming. HOWEVER, the end of this age is actually at the end of the Millennium! Our Messiah to be King, Yeshua`, GAVE us the timing in His sentence:

Matthew 13:24-30; 36-43 (KJV)

24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,

"The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
...

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying,

"Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field."

37 He answered and said unto them,

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 
38 The field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world (Greek aioonos = "age");
and the reapers are the angels. 

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world (Greek aioonos = "age"). 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Compare that to ...

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Verse 24 doesn't occur at the BEGINNING of the Millennium; it occurs at the END of the Millennium! The Millennium serves a PURPOSE! It is the time of great conflict in this world as Yeshua`, who has been named the rightful heir of the kingdoms of this world, CLAIMS these kingdoms as His own! Some will willingly become His subjects; others will resist to one degree or another! That's what Psalm 2 is all about!

Make a distinction between the Kingdom of the Son of Man and the Kingdom of His (their) Father. The tares are destroyed between the two and are removed from the Kingdom of the Son of Man and burned; but the wheat - the righteous - are placed in the Kingdom of their Father, as the Kingdom of the Son of Man becomes a PART of the Kingdom of their Father!

It's not at the end of "this age" in which you're thinking that the end of this age is marked by the Second Coming. HOWEVER, the end of this age is actually at the end of the Millennium!

I hope you know, the entire church world disagrees with you here!  We are in a very long parenthesis called the church age. It is going to end at the pretrib rapture of the church. "TIME" will then revert right back to the Jewish age as it was after Christ rose from the dead. AFter the church age, it is DAY OF THE LORD time, as shown at the 6th seal. And after that, the 70th week of Daniel, the last 7 years that closes out the Jewish age.

AFter the 70th week ends: at the 7th vial, there is a short unknown period of time and then Jesus returns to BEGIN the 1000 year reign of Christ.

What you are missing:

23 But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;  (He was the first man to receive a resurrection body.)
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (As shown in His 1 Thes. 4 coming.)

There is TIME here! The 7 years of tribulation, then the 1000 year reign of Christ.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God  (This point is after the 1000 years.)

This is not the first time God has put thousands of years between verse or even between words in a sentence!

Verse 24 doesn't occur at the BEGINNING of the Millennium; it occurs at the END of the Millennium!   Agreed. But the statement before verse 24 is BEFORE the millennium.

It is the time of great conflict in this world  On the contrary: it is going to be a thousand years of PEACE. The curse will be lifted: lambs will lay down by lions. Do you really think ruling with a rod of iron that Jesus will allow any kind of conflict? Not a chance!

The tares are destroyed between the two  The tares are destroyed right at Christ's coming as shown in Rev. 19. Jesus is NOT GOING to have tares for 1000 years!  All tares will be put to death before the 1000 years.

It seems you and I disagree MUCH on end times scriptures.  Your ideas are way way out there.

[Retrobyter]

8 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It's not at the end of "this age" in which you're thinking that the end of this age is marked by the Second Coming. HOWEVER, the end of this age is actually at the end of the Millennium!

I hope you know, the entire church world disagrees with you here! 

Really? You have polled the ENTIRE CHURCH WORLD? (I don't think so.) You don't know that. You're just blowing smoke to make me feel isolated. However, even if that was true, the majority is often not right.

Quote

We are in a very long parenthesis called the church age.

It's ONLY called the "church age" by believers who recognize that there is such an age! Not everyone would agree with you on this point.

Quote

It is going to end at the pretrib rapture of the church.

And, there you go. You believe in the pretribulational rapture of the church when there's NO SUCH THING IN SCRIPTURE! You're spouting a theological (eschatological) point of view, THEOLOGICAL PROPAGANDA! While you'll feel nice and comfy in your little "Left Behind" world, there's MUCH in Scripture that disagrees with that position!

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"TIME" will then revert right back to the Jewish age as it was after Christ rose from the dead. AFter the church age, it is DAY OF THE LORD time, as shown at the 6th seal. And after that, the 70th week of Daniel, the last 7 years that closes out the Jewish age.

Nope. That's NOT what the 70th Seven of Daniel 9 is about! It's NOT the "tribulation" at all! The "tribulation" was started in the First Century because the Jews of Jerusalem rejected God's Messiah to be King and Yeshua` pronounced them "DESOLATE!" (Matt. 23:38 fulfilling Daniel 9:27c.)

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he (Messiah) shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed ishe that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Matthew 24:5, 9-12 (KJV)

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. ...
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted (Greek: eis thlipsis = "into tribulation"), and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

It ENDS just prior to the sun, moon, and stars event of Matthew 24:29-31, which is yet in our future, where you noted the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17!

Matthew 24:29-31 (KJV)

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6:12-17 (KJV)

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks,

"Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The 70th Seven was divided in two: The first half was Yeshua`s "ministry" within His First Advent, and the second half will be when Yeshua` returns and offers the Kingdom to Israel once again at His Second Advent. The 70th Seven, being a part of the 70 Sevens on DANIEL'S people and on his holy city, has NOTHING directly to do with the "tribulation!" The two halves are more like "bookends" to the tribulation period, which you call the "church age!"

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AFter the 70th week ends: at the 7th vial, there is a short unknown period of time and then Jesus returns to BEGIN the 1000 year reign of Christ.

I don't know why you think there will be a "short unknown period of time," but after Yeshua` offers Israel the Kingdom again in the second half of the 70th Seven, and they accept His offer and God's Messiah, then the Millennium begins, which is only the first 1,000 years of the reign of the Messiah. His reign will last forever over the House of Israel.

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What you are missing:

23 But every man in his own order:

Christ the firstfruits;  (He was the first man to receive a resurrection body.)
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (As shown in His 1 Thes. 4 coming.)

There is TIME here! The 7 years of tribulation, then the 1000 year reign of Christ.

I agree with your first two statements, here, but while there is time between His Second Coming and the END of the Millennium there is ONLY the Millennium. The 2,000 years of tribulation is already over!

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24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God  (This point is after the 1000 years.)

This is not the first time God has put thousands of years between verse or even between words in a sentence!

Verse 24 doesn't occur at the BEGINNING of the Millennium; it occurs at the END of the Millennium!   Agreed. But the statement before verse 24 is BEFORE the millennium.

See? We're in agreement in these points.

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It is the time of great conflict in this world  On the contrary: it is going to be a thousand years of PEACE. The curse will be lifted: lambs will lay down by lions. Do you really think ruling with a rod of iron that Jesus will allow any kind of conflict? Not a chance!

NO! This is where you're not understanding that the Kingdom of the Messiah MUST GROW over the 1,000-year period! That's what Paul was telling us in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28! He must subdue all of His enemies! It's only a "thousand years of PEACE" WITHIN His Kingdom! OUTSIDE His Kingdom, there SHALL be conflict as He subdues His enemies! What do you think "subdue" means? We get a short insight into this conflict in Psalm 2:1-12, a Messianic Psalm.

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The tares are destroyed between the two  The tares are destroyed right at Christ's coming as shown in Rev. 19. Jesus is NOT GOING to have tares for 1000 years!  All tares will be put to death before the 1000 years.

Not if they come "OUT of His Kingdom!"

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It seems you and I disagree MUCH on end times scriptures.  Your ideas are way way out there.

We may differ on certain points, but have you ever heard of "relativity?" If I'm more dead on the Scriptures, then which one of us is "way, way out there?"

 

[dhchristian]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

It's not "secret knowledge"; it's knowledge that is "verboten." Why? It's simply because it frightens the tar out of people! If I'm right, then what else may one be wrong about? One simply has trouble wrapping his or her mind around the possibility that there may be some discontinuity in life!

One IS an "air-breather," a "soul," while he or she is alive. When one stops breathing, they are no longer an "air-breather" (duh!), and thus they are no longer a "soul," by definition! Their breath is their "spirit" for that is what the word "spirit" means. (Technically, it means "wind" but by implication is also refers to "blowing (like the wind)" or "breath.") So, when one's breath goes back to God, it is indistinguishable from any other "wind" or "movement of air molecules." Thus, there is a discontinuity in one's life as they "sleep," awaiting the Resurrection, and we trust God to remember us and resurrect us as He promised to do for those whom He loves. This is not "soul sleep" because there's no "soul" to sleep!

When one is resurrected, it will be just like Adam was first created.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (1 Cor. 15:45)

I honestly think you do not comprehend this, It is not we who live, but Christ who lives in us for we have put to death the flesh, and received the Life Quickening Spirit of Christ. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)

Jesus won the victory over death by his resurrection, that we too may be resurrected and be with Him in Spirit when we die. You are seeing things carnally, just as I stated, and not Spiritually, for you do not see with Spiritual lenses the Gift he bestowed on us, The Holy Ghost, which is the earnest of Spirit (2 Cor. 5:5) as adown payment. Here is the passage so you can see.

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor. 5:4-8)

 To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD. It is as simple as that. I know this is True because the Spirit bears witness to this fact because we who sojourn in this world have a home in glory awaiting us. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor 15;20-22)

 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:( Phil. 1:21-23)

No, Your forbidden knowledge is nothing more than a lack of faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross. We go to be with Christ In death when we are "departed", and it is our Bodies that will be resurrected in the last days, and our soul and spirit will unite with our new Spiritual bodies, for we have Christ in us who is a life quickening Spirit.

12 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

You claim that my definition of "ouranos" being "the sky" is "carnal." Does that mean that Yeshua` the Messiah was being carnal in His response to the Pharisees and Sadducees in Matthew 16?

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ek tou ouranou). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say,
'It will be fair weather: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red.'

3 And in the morning,
'It will be foul weather to day: for the sky (Greek: ho ouranos) is red and lowring.'

O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: ho ... prosoopon tou ouranou); but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

They were asking for a "sign from Heaven" and He gave them “Red sky at night, sailor’s delight. Red sky at morning, sailors take warning.” And, why is it that when the Scriptures use the SAME word in back-to-back verses they "can't possibly be talking about the same thing!" How would those who speak Greek (or even Hebrew or Aramaic) know there was supposed to be a difference? If they did NOT know (or care), then why did the translator decide to translate verse 1 as "heaven" and verses 2 and 3 as "sky" in this English translation? (And, other translations are just as guilty.)

Face it; you've been DUPED into thinking that we "go to heaven when we die." This whole theory comes from Greek mythology that became a part of the teachings of Christianity thanks in large part to Origen.

No I have said how we interpret the Word Ouranos is determined by the context of the verse. We are not being told to lay up our treasures in rocket ship in space, but in heaven which is a place where God dwells. The Signs in the sky are signs in the stars, which we see and are visible. The Word Ouranos has two meanings one is the visible as you say; "the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it." The other is the invisible, "the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings" (From Strong's G3772) Context determines the usage and meaning intended by the author. In Our case, we have the Author living within us that guides us into understanding the intent of the Author, that being the Spirit of Truth. You see, you are the one that has been duped, and the one who has duped you is your own mind which can only see things carnally for it is in denial of the need for the Spirit of Truth in helping us to interpret scriptures. Instead, your faith is misplaced in your own scholarship and mental prowess. Do You see what I am saying yet? We do not go into outer space, but we go into heaven where God dwells when we die for it is no longer we who live, but Christ who lives in us. We are of the "second Adam" not the first Adam.

 As a side Not: You Know, I am sick and tired of people using the argument that because some man taught a certain thing it is not scriptural. such is the case with the rapture and those who pin the doctrine on Darby and Schofield. Here you use the same argument using Origen. I could care less who has taught this in the past I glean these truths from the Word of God, Scripture interpreting scripture, not some sage telling me what to believe, But the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth teaching me the Truth of the Word of God. Blaming Origen or any other sage is a sign of an inability to defend one's position in the face of the Truth of the Word of God. This argument is a sign of weakness on your part IMO.