apostasia

[kwikphilly]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

What's a non salvational issue? 

Matt 25:31-46 is a deeds based judgment.

Rev 20:11-15 is a deeds based judgement.

Rev 14:13 is deeds based.

If one teaches or prophesies falsely they aren't telling the truth.

 

Probably only controversial because mankind is rebellious. I don't think we allowed our own perspective when it comes to the Word. Our own perspective is just rebellion. 

So what? I think it's big, big problem.

 

Wow....just wow,be Blessed

Do have a God Filled beautiful Sunday ,I'm off to church!

With love in Christ, Kwik

[Mr. M]

On 5/20/2023 at 5:31 AM, kwikphilly said:

So what are the consequences for believing a pre- trib rapture?All I can see is " oops,thank God I have Jesus because this sure is a surprise!"

I'm not poking fun ,it's justs a controversial subject and imo it shouldn't be- I don't believe a pre - trib rapture,Scripture does not support that as I see it but I'd sure like to be wrong if I am living at the Appointed Time!😀

In His Love,Kwik

Here is one valid concern:

Titus 2:

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

"Looking for that blessed hope"

Paul here speaks of our "blessed hope". I once asked the Lord what would be the cause of a "falling away"? The answer I received, "turning the blessed hope into a false hope". If people have faith in a "pre-trib" rapture, which is not something I put any faith in, but then it does not happen, what do you suppose the reaction would be among those who held to that as their hope?

"the glorious appearing" [G2015] epiphania 

An interesting word used for both the first and second coming of the Lord.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Timothy 4:

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness (?epiphania) of His coming. 

[G2015, epiphania] < from [G2016] epiphanes

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

[G2016, epiphanes] <[G2014] epiphaino has appeared

Back to Titus:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men;

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man has appeared.

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Mr. M
amend text

[Mr. M]

Just now, Mr. M said:

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness (?epiphania) of His coming. 

Luke 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

To give light; [2014-epiphaino]

[Alive]

11 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Paul here speaks of our "blessed hope". I once asked the Lord what would be the cause of a "falling away"? The answer I received, "turning the blessed hope into a false hope". If people have faith in a "pre-trib" rapture, which is not something I put any faith in, but then it does not happen, what do you suppose the reaction would be among those who held to that as their hope?

This is worth thinking about, brother. Interesting.

[Mr. M]

8 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

To give light; [2014-epiphaino]

How does this happen if the saints are removed?

Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine;
For your light has come!
And the glory of the Lord is risen upon you.
2 For behold, the darkness shall cover the earth,
And deep darkness the people;
But the Lord will arise over you,
And His glory will be seen upon you.
3 The Nations shall come to your light,
And kings to the brightness of your rising.

4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see:
They all gather together, they come to you;
Your sons shall come from afar,
And your daughters shall be nursed at your side.
5 Then you shall see and become radiant,
And your heart shall swell with joy;
Because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you,
The wealth of the Nations shall come to you.

[kwikphilly]

43 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

Here is one valid concern:

Titus 2:

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

"Looking for that blessed hope"

Paul here speaks of our "blessed hope". I once asked the Lord what would be the cause of a "falling away"? The answer I received, "turning the blessed hope into a false hope". If people have faith in a "pre-trib" rapture, which is not something I put any faith in, but then it does not happen, what do you suppose the reaction would be among those who held to that as their hope?

"the glorious appearing" [G2015] epiphania 

An interesting word used for both the first and second coming of the Lord.

2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2 Timothy 4:

1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness (?epiphania) of His coming. 

[G2015, epiphania] < from [G2016] epiphanes

Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

[G2016, epiphanes] <[G2014] epiphaino has appeared

Back to Titus:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men;

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man has appeared.

 

Amen,now that is a concern to consider..    hard for one such as myself to realize how that might affect those folks who believe such a thing,I Believe every advance notice warning us what will be going on at the time of His Glorious Appearance,it even helps me through every single trial and tribulation I go through in my little life- just keep my eyes on Jesus when their are very bad times,His Grace is Sufficient

Thank you,I asked the question and I appreciate an answer that provokes more thought about it......still,I do not consider people who misinterpret" apostate"......

God Bless you Brother!

Your Sis ❤️

[Mr. M]

37 minutes ago, kwikphilly said:

Thank you,I asked the question and I appreciate an answer that provokes more thought about it......still,I do not consider people who misinterpret" apostate"......

Labeling a person as "an apostate", hence making them subject to removal or "departing from" the fellowship is not the same as labeling a teaching as apostate, or potentially so, in that it could lead others, particularly babes in Christ astray, and thus should be set aside as per Paul's instructions:

Philippians 3:

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. 16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.

Titus 2:

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, Mr. M said:

the fellowship is not the same as labeling a teaching as apostate, or potentially so, in that it could lead others, particularly babes in Christ astray, and thus should be set aside as per Paul's instructions:

 

I have not followed this thread enough to know the context, but this is my biggest concern here at the forum and always has been. Its my heart and motivation to protect them wherever and whenever I can. This has come to the forefront of my mind especially of late in that, I was thinking that there are other things in this forum that can and should be sacrificed in order to do that.

[Revelation Man]

It never ceases to amaze me to read people who are in error on a point but think they are correct. Its not a guesswork, its a fact of God, the Church WILL NOT be here for the 70th week. No matter what facts anyone show these guys they will just go right on thinking in such manner. 

Then when I say them as a prophecy guy of 38 years all you are doing is letting me know I can't trust anything you say about end time prophecy, because you cant even get the sample stuff correct, they take umbrage at  my point. Yes, it is not a salvation issue for them per se, nor me, but the facts are unavoidable. Young people hearing they have to go through the 70th week no matter what will be like most young people were in the 70s and 80s, ehhh, I will deal with that stuff later on in my life, in most cases, but if you are a young lad/female and you miss the Rapture because of bad teaching, then you will be in a heap of trouble, because if you entered the 70th week without a foundation, when the Church was here, how are you going to all pf the lies of Satan, and the pressure his people will use. EXAMPLE

Take this young mans girlfriend, mom, Dad, Sister (whatever it takes) and torture them until he accepts the Mark of the Beast. So, all those who miss the Rapture are going to be in for a terrible ordeal, we elders could handle this much better, but we will not be here, no matter what anyone says, the Church will not be here, PERIOD. And that is not a belief, its a FACTOID. But how many young people will go to hell because they heard a wrong and wrongheaded theory that Jesus puts his Bride through torture for no resin  at all. The Gospel has been preached unto the whole world, the Angel in Rev. 14:6 takes over that job. 

So keep right on preaching, I am sure God will not be pleased with your preaching of this. The thing is, this is not a hard understanding, which is why I listen to no o ne o n prophecy who can't get the simple rapture correct. I see it as costing young people their greatest chance at heaven, going straight from this earth to heaven, most will never repent afterwards, or will  be tricked into taking the Mark of the Beast. Our job is to deliver TRUTH, bad theory like Jesus places his Church/Bride through torture, it defies logic. 

[Mr. M]

15 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes, it is not a salvation issue for them per se, nor me, but the facts are unavoidable. Young people hearing they have to go through the 70th week no matter what will be like most young people were in the 70s and 80s, ehhh, I will deal with that stuff later on in my life, in most cases, but if you are a young lad/female and you miss the Rapture because of bad teaching, then you will be in a heap of trouble

Why would someone miss the rapture? Is it because they are unprepared? And yet, we are instructed by the Lord to live each day as if He may return. Therefore, this argument is placing the rapture over the Lord's own admonition, "that those who endure to the end will be saved".

He has told us exactly how we will know when He has returned, "you will see me when you see me".  For every eye will Behold Him.

Matthew 24:27 For as the lighting comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Zechariah 12:

8 In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them. 

9 It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.