WILL THE BODY OF CHRIST COME BACK WITH CHRIST AT HIS COMING?

[Butch5]

2 hours ago, Tampered With said:

I was just adding to what you said not contradicting you. Matthew 24:22  is just another verse that speaks to the end of the Tribulation. 

Ok, I misunderstood you.

[Mike Mclees]

On 10/14/2019 at 3:04 AM, Marilyn C said:

Hi douge,

I agree with much of what you say bro. Now Jude 14 is `holy ones.` And we know that can be angels or saints. So we need more info. You rightly go to Deut.33:2 and the same word is there but in Hebrew - Holy Ones. So we need more info. Then go to Psalm 68: 17 and we realise that it is the ANGELS who are the HOLY ONES at Sinai.

That error in Jude & Deut. by interpreters of God`s word, have caused so much misunderstanding in Eschatology. When we correctly see those scriptures then all becomes clear.

regards, marilyn

 

 

On 10/16/2019 at 1:23 PM, Butch5 said:

There's only one coming and it's after the Tribulation.

There are two comings. One for the body of Christ before the tribulation and one for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Christ will come, I believe, before the tribulation for the body, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive.

After the tribulation Christ will come to take the believing remnant of Israel into the kingdom on earth (Luke 12:32).

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

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Post Mike mclees

Butch is coreerect. There is nothing in scriture that even hints that there is two second commings. Ater 35 years that I have been a born again believer so many except a false doctrine which  they have not studied the scripture , but just except what is so many believe those who teach this great delusion that has blinded much of the church. There is not one part of scripture that has any support that Christ will come for his church in the  free world prior to the missed used term pre trib rapture. What this says is that only those who belong to churches that support that doctrinal belief are going to skate right into heaven without even a scratch after many have suffered greatly for Jesus sake since the church was born. Even today they suffer martyrdom. What arrogance they have.  

How many know that Jesus said that "in this world their will be tribulation" John 16:33

2nd Timothy 2:3 Yea and all who live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution. 

To say 7 year tribulation is a miss nomer. In Daniel 9:27  He ( the antichrist)  shall confirm a 7YR covenant with Israel and its enemies, but mid term (3 1/2yrs ) of this peace he will brake the covenant. Jesus confirmed this with Daniel in (Matt. 24: 15) saying then shall there be Great Tribulation such as never been. Daniel also says in Dan. 25 that the believers shall be given into his hand for time, times and a half times which interprets 3 1/2

Note that the preachers of this doctrine pre tribulation do not call the last 7 years great tribulation, but that is implied and how many interpret the final seven years They have said that the unlucky believers that missed the first train out will suffer at the hands of the antichrist  and go through Gods wrath of Revelation as well for 7 yrs. This does not compute seeing Jesus confirms Daniel concerning the saints will suffer the antichrist persecutions for only 3 1/2 yrs which is called the great tribulation.

Paul Says in 2 Thess the man of sin will desicrate the Temple and declare he is God which will the be mark the beginning of The Great Tribulation in which he shall try to destroy the Church with the mark of the beast   The pre trib Rapture is a buffalo job to form a denominations and tickle your ears. 
 

M Ross

Edited October 18, 2019 by Mike Mclees

[OldCoot]

I see in the original posting that the main focus is on the redeemed and Hebrew people.  What of the nations?  Matthew 25 and Joel 3 seem to address that.   And since the redeemed will be ruling along with Messiah with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-27), why would the redeemed body not be with Him when He returns to have the Hebrew people "pass under the rod" (sounds like a reference to "rod of iron" to me) and separate out the rebels (Ezekiel 20:37-38)?  And also when the nations are judged by Messiah as per Matthew 25:31-46 which is expositional commentary from Him regarding Joel 3.

And to do these things, the body must be joined with Messiah prior to the two above events starting.  

I think it is much more simple.  When Paul says in 1st letter to the Thessalonians that we will always be with the Lord, I see no reason to see it any other way than taking it for what it literally says.  That would be wherever the Messiah is.... in Heaven or on Earth.  Why would the head of the body, Messiah, be separate from the Body of Messiah at any time after they are joined as one in the future?  The goal is to have the head and the body joined as one.  And as one, they will judge both the Hebrew people and the nations.  

I would agree there is no "two second comings".  There is the catching up to meet the Lord in the air and to forever be with Him, which is not a literal "return" or "second coming", and then later there is the actual return of the Lord to the earth to subdue it and rule.  It really is just that simple. And the catching up of the redeemed must happen at some period before the Lord returns since, when He does return, He and the body judge the Hebrew people and the nations.

Edited November 23, 2019 by OldCoot

[missmuffet]

On 10/13/2019 at 2:44 PM, douge said:

There are two comings. One for the body of Christ before the tribulation and one for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Christ will come, I believe, before the tribulation for the body, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive.

After the tribulation Christ will come to take the believing remnant of Israel into the kingdom on earth (Luke 12:32).

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The saints, the body of Christ, will be with Christ forever in the heavenly places. The body of Christ must appear before the judgment seat of Christ for rewards. Here is a verse about the judgment seat, in which the saints (believers) will be with Christ:

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Now, the body of Christ, I believe, will NOT come back with Jesus at his coming for Israel and the establishment of his kingdom.

Look at Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Now look at Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Now look at Acts 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Deuteronomy is speaking of the saints as being the angels who were mediators of the law.....saints are angels as well as believers. Also the body of Christ had not yet been formed when Deuteronomy was written; the body was not revealed before Paul (Ephesians 3:5).

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew clearly states the angels will come with Christ to establish the earthly kingdom for believing Israel.

One last point, Jude could not have prophesised anything about the body of Christ because it was hid in God and only revealed first to Paul (Ephesians 3:9).

Yes, Jesus will not step on this earth at the rapture of the Church before the tribulation. He will call us to Him and no one else on earth will see this. At the second coming Jesus will put his feet on this earth and everyone will see him. The Bema Seat judgment of Christ that will judge all believers will happen between the rapture of the Church and the end of the tribulation.  

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by missmuffet

[Sister]

On 10/14/2019 at 5:44 AM, douge said:

There are two comings. One for the body of Christ before the tribulation and one for Israel at the end of the tribulation.

Christ will come, I believe, before the tribulation for the body, the dead in Christ will rise first then we which are alive.

 

 douge

 1 Thessalonians 4:15   For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

 1 Thessalonians 4:16   For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17   Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 2 Thessalonians 2:1   Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

1 Thessalonians 4:18   Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

 

The resurrection and the quickening all happen at the same time.

but there is a twist.....

When Christ comes down from heaven, he is coming with his host - the angels.  How many angels, I do not know, but I presume it will not be in the tens of thousands, but over the hundreds of thousands at least, and could even be in the millions.  There is a big war about to be fought don't forget and these angels are doing the reaping of the earth.

Now lets read this again;

 Mark 13:24   But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

 Mark 13:25   And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

 Mark 13:26   And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

 Mark 13:27   And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Now the elect here is not everybody.  Who are these from the uttermost part of heaven?  Remember the 24 elders?  They were in heaven when the Lamb opened the seals.  It has to be them.  Then who are the elect from the uttermost part of the earth?.....These must be the 144K.

So Christ comes with his angels.  He hasn't quite descended onto the cloud level yet, but is high above that.

His angels first gather "his elect"  from the earth and from heaven.  These can only be the firstfruits whom Christ is coming with.  Not everybody can be a firstfruit.

 1 Corinthians 15:23   But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the large multitude)

Revelation 14:1   And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Revelation 14:4   These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

Now can you see why it mentions Christ coming with "tens of thousands" of his saints?  because that is only a small number compared to the rest who are yet to follow.  They are not part of the resurrection, but are already with Christ when that resurrection and quickening occurs.  They are "gathered" before the big gathering.  It still all happens "after" the "tribulation",but they are the firstfruits, hence the word firstfruits, and the total number given 144,000 from the earth.  This is how I see it.

 

[OldCoot]

Post Deleted

Edited November 26, 2019 by OldCoot

[Diaste]

On 10/15/2019 at 7:28 AM, Billiards Ball said:

WILL THE BODY OF CHRIST COME BACK WITH CHRIST AT HIS COMING?

...Yes.

That's too loud.

[Diaste]

On 11/23/2019 at 11:55 AM, missmuffet said:

Yes, Jesus will not step on this earth at the rapture of the Church before the tribulation. He will call us to Him and no one else on earth will see this. At the second coming Jesus will put his feet on this earth and everyone will see him. The Bema Seat judgment of Christ that will judge all believers will happen between the rapture of the Church and the end of the tribulation.  

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19). The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9). The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18). The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire.

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html

 

This is inaccurate. Scripture proves otherwise.

One coming, one gathering, after the tribulation of those days.

No other scenario is possible. 

[Gentle-Warrior]

On 10/16/2019 at 11:57 AM, Butch5 said:

Not sure how this affects what I said.  Jesus stated in Mathew that He would return after the Tribulation.  

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matt. 24:29-30 KJV) 

What makes you think that the tribulation that Matthew 24 was talking about in the first century,  has to do with a far future fulfillment of 2,000 years  later?

I find it very odd that most Christians don't know how to read or interpret the scriptures correctly. 

[OneLight]

11 minutes ago, Gentle-Warrior said:

What makes you think that the tribulation that Matthew 24 was talking about in the first century,  has to do with a far future fulfillment of 2,000 years  later?

I find it very odd that most Christians don't know how to read or interpret the scriptures correctly. 

Care to enlighten us as to when did:

• the Gospel was preached to the whole world?
• there was the greatest tribulation in the world ever to be?
• the sun was darkened and the moon did not give off its light?
• the powers of heaven were shaken?
• the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory ?
• His angels came with a great trumpet and gathered together His elect?

Just to name a few unanswered questions ...