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R. Hartono

Will pregnancy and toddlers/children vanish when Rapture happens ?

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3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

How can you said it is not biblical when Peter raised Tabitha from the dead? He was the leader of the church then. 

Peter was a disciple of Jesus Christ. We are not. 

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On 12/2/2019 at 4:11 PM, iamlamad said:

What is: also includes John called up to heaven. Don't forget that detail! It is very simple to work backwards from the 7th vial to the 1st vial, then the 7th trumpet to the 1st trumpet, asking the question: has this happened yet? I think most people would get stopped at the 5th seal and say "there ARE martyrs being added to the church." Perhaps this is history. Then the 4th seal: we know that pestilence has run rampant in the world. It too is history. Then famines, same story; then wars: two world wars so far: so history.

Yeah, I did factor in some detail.  And I would prefer to work my way forward and not work my way back.  It is always best to go to grade school before heading off to college.

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV ) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) "You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

And if one had already read the Bible in order instead of reading it from the back to the front and trying to make it fit some preconceived idea, the only reference to a group of 24 in scripture is when David divided the priesthood in 1 Chronicles 24.   And using the scripture hermeneutic principle of "law  of first mention" and "expositional constancy",  the application of 1 Chronicles 24 to the 24 Elders of Revelation 4-5 which call themselves "kings and priests" is referring to the redeemed body of Messiah, there before the scroll what handed to Yeshua. 

Now given the churches are talked about in Revelation 2-3, and at the time John wrote those letters, that was the present to him.  "the things which are".   And the 24 elders being the redeemed Body of Messiah and a royal priesthood per Peter which is the same thing as saying "kings and priests" in Revelation 5.  It justifies the outline I gave from Revelation 1:19.  From chapter 4 onward is the things that will take place after the churches of Revelation 2-3.  So that places the scroll and seals yet future.

Where history comes in is that in the order those present day churches of John's time are laid out, the main characteristics of the individual churches would suggest the layout is also an outline of church history.  Any other order and it would not be the case. 

And just like there were redeemed from the OT and some were martyred, especially some prophets, that does not make them the unique redeemed body of Messiah that constitutes the royal priesthood that Peter wrote about nor the 24 Elders of Revelation 4-5.  Likewise, those that come to faith as a result of the redeemed being caught away, which is what the non canonical book of  Enoch refers to as one of the primary reasons for the early removal... to drive those on the earth to repent,  Those martyrs of 5th seal are not those of the unique body of Messiah that was removed earlier.  They are those who, as a result of the wake up alarm of experiencing the redeemed be removed earlier, come to faith and pay the price for that.  

So to equate the seals to covering the last 2000 years is allegorical and not in keeping with a principled application of scripture hermeneutics.  No matter what you think you might have been personally told.

 

Edited by OldCoot

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On 12/25/2019 at 8:48 AM, OldCoot said:

Yeah, I did factor in some detail.  And I would prefer to work my way forward and not work my way back.  It is always best to go to grade school before heading off to college.

1 Peter 2:9 (NKJV ) But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Revelation 5:9-10 (NKJV) "You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.

And if one had already read the Bible in order instead of reading it from the back to the front and trying to make it fit some preconceived idea, the only reference to a group of 24 in scripture is when David divided the priesthood in 1 Chronicles 24.   And using the scripture hermeneutic principle of "law  of first mention" and "expositional constancy",  the application of 1 Chronicles 24 to the 24 Elders of Revelation 4-5 which call themselves "kings and priests" is referring to the redeemed body of Messiah, there before the scroll what handed to Yeshua. 

Now given the churches are talked about in Revelation 2-3, and at the time John wrote those letters, that was the present to him.  "the things which are".   And the 24 elders being the redeemed Body of Messiah and a royal priesthood per Peter which is the same thing as saying "kings and priests" in Revelation 5.  It justifies the outline I gave from Revelation 1:19.  From chapter 4 onward is the things that will take place after the churches of Revelation 2-3.  So that places the scroll and seals yet future.

Where history comes in is that in the order those present day churches of John's time are laid out, the main characteristics of the individual churches would suggest the layout is also an outline of church history.  Any other order and it would not be the case. 

And just like there were redeemed from the OT and some were martyred, especially some prophets, that does not make them the unique redeemed body of Messiah that constitutes the royal priesthood that Peter wrote about nor the 24 Elders of Revelation 4-5.  Likewise, those that come to faith as a result of the redeemed being caught away, which is what the non canonical book of  Enoch refers to as one of the primary reasons for the early removal... to drive those on the earth to repent,  Those martyrs of 5th seal are not those of the unique body of Messiah that was removed earlier.  They are those who, as a result of the wake up alarm of experiencing the redeemed be removed earlier, come to faith and pay the price for that.  

So to equate the seals to covering the last 2000 years is allegorical and not in keeping with a principled application of scripture hermeneutics.  No matter what you think you might have been personally told.

If there were no more information - as if chapter 5 did not exist and all chapter 4 showed was the throne room vision, your hermeneutic would be right, as there would be no more information and John would go immediately to opening the seals.  However, there IS more information - information that you simply don't understand or dont want to understand.  

Why would God show John a vision (in 95 AD) of a throne room with Jesus absent? He is the CHIEF person of the entire bible! And this books is HIS revelation.  I can give you the right answer, but you will disregard it: it is very simple: Jesus wanted to introduce John to the BOOK, but wanted to start this vision while the book was still in the hand of the Father. This would require that God show John some things history to 95 AD. The truth, whether you believe it or not, is that Jesus took the Book from the Father's hand AS SOON AS HE ASCENDED INTO THE THRONE ROOM.  That that verse therefore was HISTORY to John in 95 AD. Therefore God had to show John what the throne room looked like BEFORE Christ rose from the dead - and that is exactly what John saw. He had to show a search for one worthy before ANYONE was worthy to take the book - so that is exactly what John saw. 

As Jesus spoke to me, this passage shows TIMING and the MOVEMENT of time.  (Timing? Before Christ rose from the dead. Movement of time? A time when NO ONE was found worthy to the time Jesus was found worthy.)  After no man was found, then LATER Jesus was found - showing us the exact time Jesus rose from the dead.  Next, God showed John the moment Jesus ascended back into the throne room and took the book - so 32 AD: HISTORY to John in 95 AD. It is written in black on white that Jesus got the book into His hands in 32 AD.

We can only guess about the 24 elders because there is just not enough information for us to identify them.

Just so you know, seal 4 - titled Death - parallels Jesus' mention of pestilence in His discourse of the end times.  The 1/4 of the earth in question has seen wave after wave of pestilence. 

Seal 3, famine: you know as well as I that famine has run rampant in Africa - in the 1/4 of the earth in question.

Seal 2: wars: two world wars have started in that 1/4th of the earth.

Enough said: we are waiting on the rapture and then the 6th seal will be opened.

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2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Why would God show John a vision (in 95 AD) of a throne room with Jesus absent?

So you are going to base an entire eschatological paradigm on the absence of the mention of Yeshua specifically in the first glance by John?

Revelation 4:2-3 (NKJV) Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. 3 And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald.

You are aware aren't you that there is no Greek words used for those red highlighted ones, right?   They are the interpreters commentary on the passage.  You are basing a eschatological theology on what an interpreter implied the text as saying.  So using your analysis of Jesus not specifically mentioned, applying the absence of mention of a person specifically, and since there is no mention of the Father specifically or even God in general in the original Greek, we can then assume that we have no clue who was sitting on the throne.  If you do a study of Satan before he fell, he was described in similar manner regarding precious stones and such.  Of course it was the Lord, but recall, the Lord is Triune.  The One Lord is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  And Isaiah said of Yeshua....

Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV) For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

So it very well could be that Yeshua (Jesus) was there, but only seen by John in His divine nature.  Only later to be seen as the Lamb.  Both of which are apt descriptions of Yeshua.  Yeshua is sure not described as "the Lamb" when He returns to take over.

Isaiah 63:1-4 (NKJV) Who is this who comes from Edom,
With dyed garments from Bozrah,
This One who is glorious in His apparel,
Traveling in the greatness of His strength?—
"I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save."
2 Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress?
3 "I have trodden the winepress alone,
And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My anger,
And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,
And I have stained all My robes.
4 For the day of vengeance is in My heart,
And the year of My redeemed has come.

Your analysis is extremely weak.  One cannot make a legitimate case on the perceived absence of evidence.  Just because Yeshua (Jesus) is not mentioned specifically does not mean He wasn't there.  

Yet the passage starts out as saying "after this" which grammatically would mean after what preceded it, which was the churches.   And the only reference to 24 in scripture preceding this passage is in 1 Chronicles 24 where David divides up the priests into 24 groups.    Peter (1 Peter 2:9) calls the redeemed that make up the Body of Messiah, a royal priesthood.   And these 24 elders claim they are kings and priests (royal priesthood) in Chapter 5.... in both the TR and Vulgate.  

So while you base a timeline theology on what you perceive is the lack of evidence, I have shown a more reasoned theology based on scripture evidence relying on sound hermeneutic principles.   And since that is what anyone can test, what you think you might have been told by the Lord is subjective and does not follow the prescription by Paul to test any idea.  And the firm test is scripture.  

So, I cannot accept your analysis.

Edited by OldCoot

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On 10/18/2019 at 4:28 AM, Diaste said:

Not gonna happen. You heard it from me many times. Many others have said the same. 

Pretrib conflates wrath with tribulation. We will escape the wrath of the Most High God, we will be here during tribulation. 

You'll see soon enough.

The truth is, God's wrath comes during the ENTIRE 70th week, so every second of "tribulation" during the 70th week will be felt with God's wrath behind it. Only those who are trying to force a doctrine upon scriptures try to separate wrath from "tribulation." Satan's wrath, which will CAUSE great tribulation, comes concurrent with God's wrath - so impossible to separate in time.

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17 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The truth is, God's wrath comes during the ENTIRE 70th week, so every second of "tribulation" during the 70th week will be felt with God's wrath behind it. Only those who are trying to force a doctrine upon scriptures try to separate wrath from "tribulation." Satan's wrath, which will CAUSE great tribulation, comes concurrent with God's wrath - so impossible to separate in time.

Where in explicit scripture do you find an overlap? Chapter and verse, please.

 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Diaste said:

Where in explicit scripture do you find an overlap? Chapter and verse, please.

It is not written out word for word in one verse: it takes understanding the entire book. God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, before the week begins; then the week begins at the 7th seal, and then each trumpet judgment comes with God's wrath. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week, and God is still angry when Satan is cast down to the earth  - with his own anger or wrath.  Satan's wrath causes the days of great tribulation, as the Beast's cronies force people to worship the image and take the mark - or lose their head.  It will probably make the French Revolution using the guillotine seem insignificant, because it is going to be on a far greater scale. All this will be Satan's wrath. Finally, when the beheading will reach its peak, the angels will pour out the vials of God's wrath to shorten those days - and each vial is filled with God's wrath. It is easy therefore to see that God's wrath and Satan's wrath comes at the same time. The 70th week is from chapter 8 to chapter 16. God's wrath continues through all those chapters. I might add, I suspect Jesus has wrath as He descends and fights at Armageddon.

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9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is not written out word for word in one verse: it takes understanding the entire book. God's wrath begins at the 6th seal, before the week begins; then the week begins at the 7th seal, and then each trumpet judgment comes with God's wrath. The 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week, and God is still angry when Satan is cast down to the earth  - with his own anger or wrath.  Satan's wrath causes the days of great tribulation, as the Beast's cronies force people to worship the image and take the mark - or lose their head.  It will probably make the French Revolution using the guillotine seem insignificant, because it is going to be on a far greater scale. All this will be Satan's wrath. Finally, when the beheading will reach its peak, the angels will pour out the vials of God's wrath to shorten those days - and each vial is filled with God's wrath. It is easy therefore to see that God's wrath and Satan's wrath comes at the same time. The 70th week is from chapter 8 to chapter 16. God's wrath continues through all those chapters. I might add, I suspect Jesus has wrath as He descends and fights at Armageddon.

The 6th seal; before the week begins? And where is that in chapter and verse?

So while believers are on earth being persecuted and killed for Jesus name, God's wrath is happening at the same time? Totally contrary to scripture; "We are not appointed to wrath." - Paul

 

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3 hours ago, Diaste said:

The 6th seal; before the week begins? And where is that in chapter and verse?

So while believers are on earth being persecuted and killed for Jesus name, God's wrath is happening at the same time? Totally contrary to scripture; "We are not appointed to wrath." - Paul

Many people study a tree and miss the forest. It is not difficult to tell where we are now: none of the vials have taken place. None of the trumpets have taken place. But only the last two seals remain unopened. Again, it is not difficult to tell the 6th seal is still future. But we all know many Martyrs have been killed and are still being killed. John wrote that the martyrs must wait for their final number to be complete, and then judgment will come - as seen at the 6th seal. Therefore the church has been waiting at the 5th seal - waiting for that final martyr, for the rapture that will trigger the 6th seal events. 

As usual, you are MISSING something: the ONLY believers in earth under God's wrath are those that would not get ready for His coming FOR the church. It most certainly is NOT God's will that any are appointed to His wrath - but what if people are determined to set their OWN appointments? God is only going to take those READY for the rapture when He comes. Much of the population of earth will be left behind to face His wrath. No, He is not angry with them. His wrath is only for those who REFUSE to repent. Millions will become believers during the 70th week. And without much doubt, millions will lose their head. 

Did you not notice that the appointments for His wrath scripture is a part of the rapture passage? It will be ONLY those caught up that are not appointed to His wrath. All those left behind will be setting their OWN appointments - so not God's fault at all.

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