Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

One day all of you guys are going to find out that the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week. You could find it out now, instead of later.  Daniel 8:27 tells us there is coming an event that will divide the week into two equal parts. Daniel and John give us 7 examples of the 3.5 year period of time of the last half of the week. When the man of sin enters the temple, that event is going to stop the daily sacrifices: the Jews will have to find another red heifer without spot of blemish. But sadly, they are not going to have time.

Then Jesus tells us that when people see the abomination, they are to run for their lives. Therefore, John is in perfect agreement with Daniel and what Jesus said: when the man of sin enters the temple, the 7th trumpet will sound in heaven, so all in heaven will know that the last 3.5 years are starting. Then, in 12:6, John shows us that those who will flee have begun to flee. Given a second or two for reaction time, 12:6 is only a second or two or three after the abomination: the man of sin entering the temple.

[iamlamad]

11 hours ago, wingnut- said:

I already explained this in my initial response.  Those are the words of a bunch of unbelievers who are hiding in rocks and caves when they see the signs in the sky.  I also posted the scriptures from Matthew 24 where Jesus describes the exact same events and places them AFTER the great tribulation, but of course you didn't bother to address it because it disproves your chronology.  Not to mention you chose not to quote me, probably in the hopes I wouldn't see this attempted deflection.

Written in concrete eh?  If you continue to make things up, I am going to continue calling you out on it.  I am going to post the opening of Revelation chapter 8, everything said prior to the trumpets, so it is clear to everyone there is nothing said about any book.

Revelation 8  When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, 4 and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. 5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

Where is your book?  By the way, the kind of seals being discussed here are the kind of seals used to seal scrolls or parchments, not books.

Can you imagine at least that you are there - that you are one of those who have just witnessed the world's worst earthquake to date, then saw the signs in the sun and moon? And imagine that you are very familiar with these scriptures:

Isa. 2:

¹⁰ Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty.

¹¹ The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day.

¹² For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

 

¹⁹ And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

 

²¹ To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Joel 2: ³¹ The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

What did they just experience? John tells us:

Rev. 6: ¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Hmmm: this is exactly what they saw and experienced! It is just what Isaiah said would happen to usher in the Day of the Lord.

Rev. 6:¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Hmmm: this is exactly what Isaiah SAID they would when THE DAY arrived.

What does these scriptures SHOW US? They show us that these people were CORRECT in thinking THE DAY of the LORD had arrived.

Now, let's look at another verse in the Old Testament about the DAY:

Isaiah 13:9  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Joel 1:15  Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Now let's compare this with a couple of the trumpet judgments:

Rev. 8:

⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

⁸ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Now ask yourself: is this or is this not the beginning of the fulfillment of Isaiah 13? Is burning up all the grass laying the land "desolate?" Could it fit into the classification of "destruction?" You know the answer must be yes.

What then, am I saying? Only that they were right, and John was right, and the Holy Spirit directing john was right: THE DAY of the LORD indeed does begin RIGHT THEN. Each trumpet judgment is the beginning of the destruction of the world and the beginning of "destroying the sinners out of it."

Therefore I will say that you have missed the mark on this verse, not understanding the Author's intent.

I also posted the scriptures from Matthew 24 where Jesus describes the exact same events and places them AFTER the great tribulation 

OF COURSE I addressed it, but it went right over your head because of disbelief.

You really need to do a study on the signs in the sun and moon: Hebrew AND Greek.

What you are missing: the signs at the 6th seal and the signs in Matthew are DIFFERENT! They are not the same signs. How is someone to know that the sun appears as black as sackcloth? They have to SEE IT! How is someone to know if the moon appears red? They have to SEE IT.  But if the sun and moon are darkened, NO ONE SEES THEM.  I don't remember if it is the Hebrew or the Greek or both, but the definition of the word is the total absence of light. Joel 3 and Matthew 24 are speaking of total darkness. Note, the sun as sackcloth and the moon as blood: these are describing eclipses. Not so with the signs in Matthew.

Next, if you just leave Revelation as written, you can easily see that the signs of the 6th seal are BEFORE the 70th week, while the signs in Joel 3 and Matthew 24 are AFTER the 70th week: in other words, over 7 years apart in time.

Next, you could discover that the signs at the 6th seal are for the DAY, but the signs in Matthew 24 are for Jesus' coming: two different things at two different times. In other words, YOU THOUGHT you posted something....but in reality you did not.

If you continue to make things up, I am going to continue calling you out on it.   Please continue. And I will do the same.

you chose not to quote me, probably in the hopes I wouldn't see this attempted deflection.  Maybe I just did not want too long a post - or maybe I missed something. I certainly did not choose NOT to quote you for any devious reason: I don't have one devious bone in me. Wingnut, the ONLY thing going on here is that we read these scriptures differently and respond accordingly.

I am going to post the opening of Revelation chapter 8, everything said prior to the trumpets, so it is clear to everyone there is nothing said about any book. 

OK, so I will quote:

Rev 5:1  And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

² And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

³ And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

⁴ And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

Here are 4 verses about the book: and John is showing us HOW IMPORTANT this book is to God: He sent an angel to search for one worthy. WHY is this book so important? Why is it SO NECESSARY to get the seals opened so the BOOK can be opened? The answer is very simple: it is what leads to Satan being cast off his usurped throne as god of this world.

⁵ And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

⁷ And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

⁸ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Note how important this book is: the moment Jesus ascended back into heaven, HIS FIRST EVENT was to get the book from the Father's hand.  Note at least one reason why the Son had to prevail (over death): to open the book. It seems then, but understanding the scriptures concerning the book, that it was very important to God to get this book opened. But before the book can be opened, SOMEONE had to prevail (over death) to become worthy to open the book. As you can see, God gave most of one chapter to THE BOOK. We all know books back then were scrolls - but since the KJV uses "book" I also use "book." It was so important that the beasts and elders sang a song about it.

Then, without quoting the scriptures, you of course know that the ENTIRE 6th chapter is about the seals sealing the book.

So you want to get to the 7th seal and then FORGET THE BOOK? ?? ?? After all these verses about this book, and you just forget it? It should be very obvious that what comes after all the seals are opened that the BOOK gets opened.

Ellicott's Commentary:

 It is a disputed point whether the book, or roll, fastened with the seven seals (Revelation 5:1-2) is ever really unrolled to view. Some have thought that as each seal is opened a portion of the roll is displayed, unfolding the vision of the seal: others have regarded the visions as mere accompaniments of the opening of the seals, and quite distinct from the writing on the roll; those who take this view are disposed to think that the roll never is read, for that when the last seal is broken, and all are expecting to hear what is written in the book, no reading takes place, but only a silence ensues. It does not seem to me that this latter view is altogether tenable. It appears a singularly harsh interpretation to say that the contents of the roll are never disclosed. The book of God’s purposes was seen in the hand of Him who sat on the throne. The Evangelist longed to know something of its contents; vain efforts were made to open it; the Evangelist wept with disappointment; he was then comforted in his sorrow by hearing that the Lion of the tribe of Judah had conquered to open the book; but then, after all this, not a line or word of the book, it is said, is ever revealed. The servant is waiting to hear the divine word; the seer is waiting to record what is unfolded; but though the seals are opened, we are told that the words he waits for never came. St. John himself gives no hint of so disappointing a conclusion.

 It is only a spirit in bondage to foolish literalisms which will ask how the visions can be the writing in the roll. The book represents God’s purposes and principles of His government in relation to the world-history; the seals show us some typical scenes in that world-history, and if not seen on the parchment of the roll, are yet unfoldings of principles and truths in the book.

Of course John gives no hint, because it is obvious (at least to me) that 8:2 is what is written INSIDE THE BOOK. What God shows following the 7th seal is what is written inside the book.

Meyer's Commentary:  

...we must hold fast simply to the text, which says that at the opening of the seventh seal a profound silence occurred in heaven, where the sealed book was opened...

Expositors Greek Testament:  ... The book of destiny is now open; what follows (Revelation 8:6 f.) is the course of the future,  ...

Pulpit commentary:  ... This completes the number, and sets the roll free (Revelation 5:1) ...

Biblestudytools Comentary:  seventh seal
The seventh seal contains the seven trumpet judgments and the seventh trumpet contains the seven bowl judgments.¹ The full effects of opening all seven seals include all seven trumpet judgments and the seven bowl judgments: 6 seal judgments + 6 trumpet judgments + 7 bowl judgments = 19 specific judgments in all. At the opening of the seventh seal, 6 judgments (the six seals) have passed and 13 remain (six trumpets and seven bowls within the seventh trumpet).

Bible Hermaneutics:  The reason that the seventh seal does not seem to have one main thing associated with it is that it introduced the next whole chain of events.

DiscoverRevelation.com  The opening of the seventh seal introduces the 7 trumpet judgments, which are all judgments of God sent on the earth. In these judgments, God is exclusively the sender and people are exclusively receivers.

In general I am usually very dissatisfied with the commentaries on Revelation. However, I can usually find one that I agree with.  Many of them imagine Revelation is history.

I agree, there are no words such as, "the book was opened and I am saw 7 angels...." God chose not to tell us in so many words that the trumpets are what is inside the book. Perhaps He wanted us to mediate on these scriptures and allow Him to give us revealed knowledge.

I think Ellicott did by far the best job on this passage of scripture.

In summary, I think it is just understood without words that once all seven of the seals are opened, then the book is opened. If not, then God wasted a lot of words concerning the book.

As for my book, search Amazon Kindle for

The Book of Revelation Finally Unlocked

Oh, if you look under Barnes and Nobles "nook" it is free there.

Edited November 4, 2019 by iamlamad

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

As I have written many times, the written Greek did not have any kind of punctuation: NONE. They did not use periods, commas, semi-colons, colons, question marks, and certainly not quotation marks.

 

How many languages are you fluent in?  Is Greek one of them?

The reason I ask is simple.  The disciples were a punch of poor, uneducated fisherman, and yet somehow they were fluent in a language that was not their native tongue, and not just able to speak it, but also to read and write it.  In case you don't know the history of the Greeks, their civilization was pretty impressive, all these writers and philosophers and such.  Pity none of them had any clue what anyone else was talking about, at least that is how you present your case.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I discovered that John used a parenthesis in Rev. 11 because I first learned that the 7th trumpet marked the midpoint and those fleeing began their fleeing in 12:6 - which would be seconds after the abomination.

 

And what in those passages makes you connect them together?

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Next, I knew the two witnesses show up just days before the midpoint. It is impossible to fit 1260 days into 3.5 days. I knew they are not destined to witness in the first half of the week, so the only possible alternative was that John used a parenthesis.

 

You also can't have it both ways and just pluck a few verses out of it to move.  The entire passage goes together, from verses 1-14 or you have the 2 witnesses here for more than 1260 days.  What you really want to do here is REMOVE verse 14 from the text because it ties these events to the 6th trumpet, which is the 2nd woe.  Let's just be honest about your entire reasoning behind your invisible parentheses theory.

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This is not a stretch of the imagination at all: When God introduced John to the two witnesses, He then took John on a side journey (outside of - His chronology) down the last half of the week with the two witnesses. For Chronology, the city will START to be trampled, the two witnesses show up, (just 3.5 days before the abomination) the 3.5 days pass, the man of sin enters the temple and declares He is God (stopping the daily sacrifices), The 7th trumpet sounds in heaven marking that event on earth, and those in Judea (those who will) begin to flee.

 

This makes absolutely no sense at all.  Look, verses 1-3  cover the measuring of the temple, the trampling of the city by the gentiles, and the introduction to the 2 witnesses and their 1260 day visit.  That places them just before the midpoint, then John precedes to tell you the highlights of their ministry for that time period culminating in their death and resurrection.  Then he tells you at the conclusion that the 2nd woe (6th trumpet) is done and the 3rd woe (7th trumpet) comes quickly.   This is your problem and what you continue not to address, you have already attached the 6th trumpet to the 7th vial!

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I have not changed my mind on this. People imagine they can just move seals, or trumpets or vials any which way, and I have heard it many ways. But they seldom offer and scripture to back up their reasoning. My thinking is, if someone imagines John did not write in Chronological order, then their must be good, scriptural proof.

 

You're doing it though, that's exactly what you have presented.  The difference is, you want to eliminate a verse and pretend it doesn't exist so you can say that you are not, and it doesn't fly.

 

God bless

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For study purposes it is always wise to check many translations, then check and see if the different Greek texts are different.

 

Here is a novel idea, how about you leave the understanding of Greek to people who actually understand it?  If you were standing in front of me and I spoke to you in Greek, would you have any idea what I said?

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It seems this idea bothers you: that God gives all the kingdoms (or if you please, one big kingdom putting them all together) to Jesus, but then allows 42 months of authority BACK to Satan. It does not bother me at all. If they are given to God, then He certainly has the right to delegate again.

As for verses 17 & 18: notice that these are words spoken by the elders, not from God.

 

I'm direct, so I'll explain it to you in the most simplistic way what bothers me.

What bothers me, is your sloppy handling of the text so you can mold it into whatever you want it to say.  This response is a prime example of what I mean.  At the opening of the 6th seal, a bunch of unbelievers that are hiding in the caves say “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,  for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

You accept this as an absolute given, though the words come from the mouth of God Himself.  Your concrete evidence, is a bunch of unbelievers and their understanding of scripture.

Then we get to the 7th trumpet, and what is spoken by the 24 elders, who are holy and pure obviously, because they are in the presence of God Himself, and you treat their words with blatant disregard and try to dismiss them as though they are some sort of mistake in timing.

Care to explain that?

 

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

For study, it is always good to check the parsing of the Greek verbs. Here (and most other places in the book) John has used a Greek Aorist tense verb that does not show ANY KIND of timing information. However, we know His wrath began at the 6th seal, 3.5 years earlier, so of course at this time, God is still angry: He still has wrath. I think this is all that John is telling us at this time - at the midpoint.

 

It would be better if folks like yourself that have no idea how to speak Greek, and are not fluent in the language, to accept that some people are and that the word of God was delivered to you in your language as it should be.

 

I would also appreciate if you explain the most important aspect of what I asked you in regards to the sounding of the 7th trumpet.  The opening section, and Jesus' kingdom.

 

Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

 

The world has become His kingdom, when do the prophets say that is?

 

God bless

 

[wingnut-]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Note carefully, I have not changed the number of days of their prophecy: all I have don't is place their time of testimony correctly on the timeline: 3.5 days in the first half of the week, then 1256.5 in the last half. Why?

 

It is simple, because you want to remove verse 14 from the text so you can continue to cling to your chronology.  Not a credible argument.

[iamlamad]

54 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

It is simple, because you want to remove verse 14 from the text so you can continue to cling to your chronology.  Not a credible argument.

It is OK that you don't know 11:4 through 11:13 is written as a parenthesis. Really, few people do.

Verse 14 remains. It only tells us that the first two woes are completed and the 3rd woe is coming. Then the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe - sounds.

[wingnut-]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Can you imagine at least that you are there - that you are one of those who have just witnessed the world's worst earthquake to date, then saw the signs in the sun and moon?

 

There is no doubt that Isaiah 2 is speaking about the same events.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Now, let's look at another verse in the Old Testament about the DAY:

Isaiah 13:9  Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Now let's compare this with a couple of the trumpet judgments:

Rev. 8:

⁷ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

⁸ And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

 

How about comparing them to the wrath, since that is what is being spoken of?

 

Revelation 16:3 The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became like the blood of a corpse, and every living thing died that was in the sea.

4 The third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood.

 

Revelation 16:8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were scorched by the fierce heat, and they cursed the name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.

10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish 11 and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They did not repent of their deeds.

 

Which are called wrath, and which better reflect destruction?  And also, how do you suppose what Isaiah said in 13:9 that you posted above can be true?  If all the sinners are destroyed out of the land at the sixth seal and that is the beginning, then who is left for all that follows?

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

What you are missing: the signs at the 6th seal and the signs in Matthew are DIFFERENT!

 

Of course, they are practically identical because they are different, gotcha    I'll tell you what, why don't you show us where the events Jesus described are found in the book of Revelation then.  You don't believe He was mistaken do you?

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, YOU THOUGHT you posted something....but in reality you did not.

 

No, you just didn't read it carefully enough, I'll make it easier this time and maybe you can catch it.

 

Matthew 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

But like I asked previously, show where this occurs in the book of Revelation.

 

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

OK, so I will quote:

 

You are not quoting from chapter 8 where you claim the book mentioned in chapter 5 is opened.  This is a deflection again from the facts.  You make a claim that the book has to be opened for the trumpets and vials, but when we read the opening of the 7th seal, there is no book found mentioned at all, why?

Where we differ here is not that complicated, you are once again penciling something into the text that is not there, to fit your theory.  Why not just believe what is written in scripture, and accept where John tells you the books are opened?

 

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

Again, you will notice the timing of books being opened is at the end, coinciding with what is spoken at the 7th trumpet.  Once again, your argument for chronology is just a convenient way for you to move things about as you please, and condemn others for disagreeing with your chronology.  Your theory simply doesn't fit with what is written.

 

God bless

 

 

[wingnut-]

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

It is OK that you don't know 11:4 through 11:13 is written as a parenthesis. Really, few people do.

Verse 14 remains. It only tells us that the first two woes are completed and the 3rd woe is coming. Then the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe - sounds.

 

How convenient for your false theory that you get to remove all the text associated with it and leave three verses to comprise the entire second woe.  Yeah, so believable.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Here is a novel idea, how about you leave the understanding of Greek to people who actually understand it?  If you were standing in front of me and I spoke to you in Greek, would you have any idea what I said?

It's OK: I have time. I will do your homework for you. Just set back and relax:
Matthew 24: "darkened"
Outline of Biblical Usage:

    to cover with darkness, to darken

    to be covered with darkness, be darkened

        of heavenly bodies as deprived of light

Note carefully: Is the sun a heavenly body? You know it is. If the sun is deprived of light, it is invisible.  Contrast that with the sun appearing like a total solar eclipse.  https://www.timeanddate.com/eclipse/total-solar-eclipse.html

The outline of the sun is highlighted, but the sun itself is black as sackcloth  (made from black goat hair). How would anyone know that the sun appeared black as sackcloth? They would have to SEE IT. Both the sun and moon are visible during the signs of the Day of the Lord. But for the signs in Matthew for Our Lord's coming, neither the sun nor the moon nor any stars are visible. Again, these are two different signs for two different purposes.

YOu see, I have a good understanding of English, so I can look in Strong's and READ the meaning of a Greek or a Hebrew word.

[wingnut-]

6 hours ago, iamlamad said:

By the way, I wrote you a personal post - in case you missed it.

 

I responded to it, but it says you have not read my response.