Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

the tribulation the great is speaking of the church age, NOT the days of GT that Jesus was speaking of.

Instead of word games to change the great tribulation into "the tribulation the great" why not just admit you are wrong? You have to create this word game quandry because if the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21, and Rev. 7:14 are the same Then the abomination of desolation and the rule of the beast has also already occurred because Matthew 24:21 ties the two together. The Great tribulation is not the church Age, because then the rule of the beast has already occurred. 

Do You see yet the fallacy in your logic? I Know it is humbling to admit you are wrong, but you should try it some time, you might learn something.

 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Instead of word games to change the great tribulation into "the tribulation the great" why not just admit you are wrong? You have to create this word game quandry because if the great tribulation in Matthew 24:21, and Rev. 7:14 are the same Then the abomination of desolation and the rule of the beast has also already occurred because Matthew 24:21 ties the two together. The Great tribulation is not the church Age, because then the rule of the beast has already occurred. 

Do You see yet the fallacy in your logic? I Know it is humbling to admit you are wrong, but you should try it some time, you might learn something.

 

That is a big IF: as I have said, that theory does not fit all the rest of the end times scriptures. 

Do you not understand that it is the Beast and False Prophet that CAUSES the days of GT?

[iamlamad]

12 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

Because I understand the book is not chronological, by simply following what it says.

This is like putting every chapter or maybe every verse in a hat and drawing them out one by one to establish an order. Once anyone begins moving things to fit a theory, where does it stop?  If it is not in any kind of order, how can anyone establish any kind of order?

On the other hand, since it IS in perfect order, any theory that must rearrange is going to be proven wrong.

By the way, if you are following what is says, then you are following John's order.

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, TheAimes said:

I've read the section of Scripture in multiple versions of the Bible - no parenthesis. 

So unless you have a direct line to John, I don't think he did. 

Tell us then, do you see the Two Witnesses' testimony in the first half of the week, or the second half?
When do they show up - or when in relation to the seals / trumpets / vials do that begin?

Where do you see the 7th trumpet in John's timeline?

It is not surprising that you have not found parenthesis marks: most translations missed them in 20:5: a verse where parentheses is absolutely necessary for proper understanding.

Since the 42 months of trampling points to the midpoint as a starting point, then if you add 1260 days of testifying as John lays out in verses 3-13, then by verse 14, it is at the end of the week: 1260 days after the midpoint:  42 months pointing to the midpoint, then add 1260 days and you arrive at the end of the week. Therefore the 7th trumpet is at the end of the week, and then the abomination and fleeing must also be at the end of the week. Then the fleeing must be at the end of the week, and the 42 months of authority starting at the end of the week.

Is this John's intent? If not, how do you solve this?

[iamlamad]

16 hours ago, wingnut- said:

 

You're just not catching on at all.  John didn't use parentheses.  John speaks of the 2nd woe precisely where he was told to for a reason, it is the Revelation of Jesus.  It says what it says, and where it says it.  Here is my point, no illusions.

 

Revelation 9  And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.

 

Chapter 9 begins with the 5th trumpet which is the first woe, and after we read of what it says John concludes it by saying this.

 

Revelation 9:12 The first woe has passed; behold, two woes are still to come.

 

Then John writes about the 6th trumpet, which is the second woe.

 

Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour, the day, the month, and the year, were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of mounted troops was twice ten thousand times ten thousand; I heard their number. 17 And this is how I saw the horses in my vision and those who rode them: they wore breastplates the color of fire and of sapphire and of sulfur, and the heads of the horses were like lions' heads, and fire and smoke and sulfur came out of their mouths. 18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails, for their tails are like serpents with heads, and by means of them they wound.

20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk, 21 nor did they repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts.

We know the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, but John doesn't write it here, why?  Why does it comes 2 chapters later following the passage on the 2 witnesses?  The answer is simple, because we are to understand that the 6th trumpet is connected to the events found where the 2nd woe is stated as taking place.  It is lost on you, but not anyone else.  That is why your imaginary parentheses is rejected, because it is false.

There is absolutely no reason for that information to be found there for any other reason.  If John didn't want verse 14 to go with the 2 witnesses he would have written it in chapter 9, or better yet, written the 2 witnesses later on.  You can't come up with any reason for it to appear where it does, and you don't understand it because you are not open to learn, so instead you create and present a total fiction.  Good luck with that.

God bless

We know the 6th trumpet is the 2nd woe, but John doesn't write it here, why?  What are you saying? You just quoted it in the same chapter:  Revelation 9:13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet

What then do you mean, "John does not write it here: IT IS written here! Perhaps you mean "the 2nd woe is finished?"   Is this your meaning?  The answer is very simple: He is following the pattern he started earlier: a woe finished is written ONE VERSE before the next woe.

In this case, the next woe is at the 7th trumpet, verse 15. So John wrote the second woe finished in verse 14. It really has NOTHING to do with the two witnesses. You really need to learn when John changes topics. Of course, if there were parentheses in ancient Greek, you would see a punctuation mark and know John changed subjects in verse 14.

You see? There are different ways to see this.

we are to understand that the 6th trumpet is connected to the events found where the 2nd woe is stated as taking place.   I think you missed something here. In 11:14 we find only a statement that the 2nd woe has ENDED. It takes place at the 6th trumpet in chapter 9. It is ended by the end of chapter 9.

If John didn't want verse 14 to go with the 2 witnesses he would have written it in chapter 9  Did you just overlook that John placed the "the first woe is finished,"  one verse before the 6th trumpet / 2nd woe? It is just the way John wrote. So he continued by writing "the second woe is past" one verse before the 7th trumpet / 3rd woe. he is CONSISTENT. 

As usual, we disagree.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

On the other hand, since it IS in perfect order, any theory that must rearrange is going to be proven wrong.

 

S0 you mean for example, if someone decided to add imaginary parentheses so they could move things around at their leisure?  

[wingnut-]

5 hours ago, iamlamad said:

You did not think the parenthesis in Rev. 20 existed, yet I showed you that in some translations it DID exist.

 

No, what you showed me are a bunch of obscure translations that the vast majority of people don't consider accurate at all.  What version of the bible do you use iamlamad?  What bible version is it that you carry to church with you on sunday morning?   You have KJV written all over you, I imagine you even attend a church where any other version of the bible is considered suspect.

[wingnut-]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Did you just overlook that John placed the "the first woe is finished,"  one verse before the 6th trumpet / 2nd woe?

 

Not seeing the forest for the trees.  John places the verse in chapter 11 for a reason iamlamad, if what you say were true then he would have just put it in chapter 9 like he did following the first woe.  Until you can provide an intelligent response as to why the 2nd woe is written with the 2 witnesses you have no argument.  It wasn't put there so you could invent an imaginary parentheses either, learn to accept scripture as it is written.

You have no intelligent response so you keep dancing around addressing the issue that proves you false.  I'm done wasting my time with you.

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

No, what you showed me are a bunch of obscure translations that the vast majority of people don't consider accurate at all.  What version of the bible do you use iamlamad?  What bible version is it that you carry to church with you on sunday morning?   You have KJV written all over you, I imagine you even attend a church where any other version of the bible is considered suspect.

The point, which it seems you missed, was that beginners don't make entire bible translations. I don't use any specific translation: when I study I study them all. When I read, I like KJV. For Revelation, there are others more accurate than KJV.  I have always liked expanded bibles like the Amplified.

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, wingnut- said:

Not seeing the forest for the trees.  John places the verse in chapter 11 for a reason iamlamad, if what you say were true then he would have just put it in chapter 9 like he did following the first woe.  Until you can provide an intelligent response as to why the 2nd woe is written with the 2 witnesses you have no argument.  It wasn't put there so you could invent an imaginary parentheses either, learn to accept scripture as it is written.

You have no intelligent response so you keep dancing around addressing the issue that proves you false.  I'm done wasting my time with you.

Your imaginator has been running overtime. Have you all this time OVERLOOKED this verse?

And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

Do you see this? the first woe is the 5th trumpet, the second woe is the 6th trumpet and the third woe is the 7th trumpet.

Now, go back and look and see what chapter John wrote the 6th trumpet. You will find it is in chapter 9. So what in the world is your argument? You have none.

Until you can provide an intelligent response as to why the 2nd woe is written with the 2 witnesses you have no argument.  I am amazed what some people write!  John TOLD Us the second woe is the 6th trumpet. Go back and examine your bible and find out for sure what chapter the 6th trumpet is in. Then come back with a better question. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by iamlamad