Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

17 hours ago, TheAimes said:

I agree, without adding to or changing them when it strikes our fancy.

Perhaps you have not seen, but I frequently write my Axiom on Revelation:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

 

I might add, many people disagree with it.

Edited November 11, 2019 by iamlamad

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, dhchristian said:

That is true I am basing this on that. For me this is definitional. There can only be one great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matt. 24:21) 

Sometimes, you have to stand on the Word of God as written. 

 

Shalom, dhchristian.

So, why do you fail to acknowledge that this "great tribulation" didn't start in the first century A.D?

Matthew 24:9 (KJV)

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

The Greek of this verse is ...

Kata Maththaion 24:9 (UBS Greek New Testament)

9 Tote paradoosousin humas eis thlipsin kai apoktenousin humas, kai esesthe misoumenoi hupo pantoon toon ethnoon dia to onoma mou.

9 Tote = 9 Then
paradoosousin = they-shall-give-up
humas = you (plural)
eis = into
thlipsin = tribulation
kai = and
apoktenousin = they-shall-kill
humas, = you (plural),
kai = and
esesthe = you (plural)-shall-become
misoumenoi = hated-ones
hupo = under
pantoon = all
toon = of-the
ethnoon = nations
dia = through
to = the
onoma = name
mou. = of-me.

The word "humas" is "you (plural)," and it refers to those gentlemen who were seated upon the Mount of Olives that day when Yeshua` was talking to them! It was THEIR generation that faced the persecutions of Rome, the beginning of the tribulation that formed the beginning of the Great Tribulation that has lasted almost 2,000 years! A 2,000-year tribulation has never had anything like it, and there'll never be anything like it again!

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, you don't care WHERE in the book John wrote things  -you just rearrange to fit your theory.  I am beginning to understand.

No, Like the prophets in the Old testament, John has a chronology, it is just not linear like you and most people presume, But rather three dimensional. You yourself partially see this and insert parenthesis in certain places, But your vision is incomplete IMO. 

 

[dhchristian]

2 hours ago, iamlamad said:

ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong.

I Am sorry, but you yourself are guilty of this by adding parenthesis to the text.

[dhchristian]

Just now, Retrobyter said:

tribulation that formed the beginning of the Great Tribulation that has lasted almost 2,000 years! A 2,000-year tribulation has never had anything like it, and there'll never be anything like it again!

Matthew 24:21 clearly ties the Abomination of desolation and the rule of the Antichrist to the Great tribulation. So unless you are saying the beast has already had his rule and declared himself God, Then I cannot believe this. The 2000 years is a tribulation but not the Great tribulation. The Great tribulation threatens the death of all of humanity And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24;22)

While we do have tribulation, and John said he was a fellow partaker in the tribulation of the church age, this will pale in comparison to the Great tribulation. Jesus shortens this time from 7 years to 3.5 years for the sake of the elect.

[Retrobyter]

25 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Matthew 24:21 clearly ties the Abomination of desolation and the rule of the Antichrist to the Great tribulation.

Shalom, dhchristian.

No, it doesn't! Where did you get all that in the verse we're talking about?!

Matthew 24:21 (KJV)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Where do you see ANYTHING about the "Abomination of desolation" or the "rule of the Antichrist" in that verse?! That's TOTAL NONSENSE!

25 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

So unless you are saying the beast has already had his rule and declared himself God, Then I cannot believe this.

Good! Because that is NOT what I'm saying at all!

25 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

The 2000 years is a tribulation but not the Great tribulation. The Great tribulation threatens the death of all of humanity And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. (Matthew 24;22)

While we do have tribulation, and John said he was a fellow partaker in the tribulation of the church age, this will pale in comparison to the Great tribulation. Jesus shortens this time from 7 years to 3.5 years for the sake of the elect.

Nope. You're misunderstanding Matthew 24:22. Yeshua` was saying that the DAYS OF TRIBULATION within this 2,000-year period will be shortened! He is NOT saying that the period will be shortened! And, what gives you or anybody the proof that the "tribulation period" is either "7 years" or "3.5 years?"

[dhchristian]

26 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Where do you see ANYTHING about the "Abomination of desolation" or the "rule of the Antichrist" in that verse?! That's TOTAL NONSENSE!

Matthew 24:15-29 is all tied together. Read. Jesus ties them together.

 

27 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Good! Because that is NOT what I'm saying at all!

good, we agree then on that. This is what the preterists believe, and what I am sharing is a refutation of their strongest argument in favor of this notion. by triangulating the Great tribulation with Rev. 7:14, I am squarely placing the Great tribulation in the final week for Israel, and making it impossible to have occurred in the church age. 

 

30 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Nope. You're misunderstanding Matthew 24:22. Yeshua` was saying that the DAYS OF TRIBULATION within this 2,000-year period will be shortened! He is NOT saying that the period will be shortened! And, what gives you or anybody the proof that the "tribulation period" is either "7 years" or "3.5 years?"

Again read the entire passage, Matthew 24:15-29. Jesus himself says in verse 14 that and then shall the end come. And the very next thing he says to mark the beginning of the end is When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is simple Logic, and text reading here. This is confirmed by 2 thess. 2, where theman of sin is revealed when he declares himself God in the holy Place "FIRST". 

As a Bit of an aside here, the Post modern mindset is so prevalent amongst the prophecy community, that simple linguistic vernacular no longer is accepted, and simple logic is not seen as proof of Truth. I Am actually shocked people cannot see this here. 

 

[dhchristian]

4 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Question: what was the intent of the author in mentioning "GT" for the church at Thyratira?  God was speaking to people alive in John's day. Was God saying if they did not repent He would keep them alive for the GT greater than all others - or was He only saying HE, God, could create GT any time He chose?

You are missing the Point I am making. The Great tribulation from Matthew 24 is a short time frame within the final week. You agree with this? The Sixth seal is mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31, which is a parallel passage with the descriptions found in revelation 6, and 7 of the sixth seal, only an abbreviated version of it. See My comment to RM on my post regarding this as I elaborate further there. You must have missed this point?

As an aside to this, sometimes when the Word thlipsis is used it refers to affliction. For example, if you commit adultery and get an STD, you are going to suffer great affliction but not The Great Tribulation. For example the following verse: Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance. (Acts 7:11) Now, the same words are used there, Megas Thlipsis, But we know this is not referring to the Great tribulation as in a specific time frame in the end times, because of context. Well Rev. 2:22 is the same thing. Like you said, this church was around in John's time, and thus not relevant. You answered your own rebuttal in your question, and is why I ignored it when you asked earlier.  

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, dhchristian said:

You are missing the Point I am making. The Great tribulation from Matthew 24 is a short time frame within the final week. You agree with this? The Sixth seal is mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31, which is a parallel passage with the descriptions found in revelation 6, and 7 of the sixth seal, only an abbreviated version of it. See My comment to RM on my post regarding this as I elaborate further there. You must have missed this point?

As an aside to this, sometimes when the Word thlipsis is used it refers to affliction. For example, if you commit adultery and get an STD, you are going to suffer great affliction but not The Great Tribulation. For example the following verse: Now there came a dearth over all the land of Egypt and Chanaan, and great affliction: and our fathers found no sustenance. (Acts 7:11) Now, the same words are used there, Megas Thlipsis, But we know this is not referring to the Great tribulation as in a specific time frame in the end times, because of context. Well Rev. 2:22 is the same thing. Like you said, this church was around in John's time, and thus not relevant. You answered your own rebuttal in your question, and is why I ignored it when you asked earlier.  

Now I see where you took a right turn off the track. You are simply mistaken in saying the 6th seal is in Matthew 24. It is a common mistake - but it is certainly a mistake.

If you notice, the only time the moon appears red color, is during a lunar eclipse. The only time the sun appears black as sackcloth is during a solar eclipse. The signs for the Day of the Lord come before the 70th week even begins, and they are totally different signs. How would ANYONE know if the moon appeared blood red? They would have to SEE it. How would anyone know the sun appeared as dark as sackcloth? They would have to SEE it.

The signs shown in Joel 3 and in Matthew 24 are NOT SHOWN in Revelation. (if they were, they would be in chapter 19) God chose not to show John those signs of His coming. But, Joel 3 shows them and Matthew 24 shows them. When both the sun and moon are dark, it is talking about total darkness. For the word for the sun "darkened" in Matthew 24, Strongs says, " of heavenly bodies as deprived of light." It is speaking of total darkness. When Jesus spoke of lightning flashing across the sky, from East to West, you see that in the dark.  Here the intent is, NO ONE CAN SEE either the sun or the moon.

In other words, your theory that you can rearrange Revelation to fit a theory has led you astray. What do I mean? If you trusted God to give John ORDER and Chronology, you would have known that something in chapter 6 is before the 70th week.  Jesus does not return to Armageddon in chapter 6 - it is not until chapter 19! If you notice, Joel covers BOTH of these signs in His book: the blood red moon as the sign for the start of the DAY (the 6th seal) and then in chapter 3 when Jesus returns as the same sign as in Matthew 24.

We agree, there are OTHER times of GT. If people are being turned into martyrs, is that not a time of GT for THEM? Also for those around them that knew they were murdered only because they love Jesus. I see no problem with God writing about the church age at the time of the rapture as a time of GT: as in the great crowd too large to number.

Until you get these two signs in the sun and moon straight, we are going to continue to disagree.

Edited November 11, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

8 hours ago, dhchristian said:

Matthew 24:15-29 is all tied together. Read. Jesus ties them together.

good, we agree then on that. This is what the preterists believe, and what I am sharing is a refutation of their strongest argument in favor of this notion. by triangulating the Great tribulation with Rev. 7:14, I am squarely placing the Great tribulation in the final week for Israel, and making it impossible to have occurred in the church age. 

Again read the entire passage, Matthew 24:15-29. Jesus himself says in verse 14 that and then shall the end come. And the very next thing he says to mark the beginning of the end is When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is simple Logic, and text reading here. This is confirmed by 2 thess. 2, where theman of sin is revealed when he declares himself God in the holy Place "FIRST". 

As a Bit of an aside here, the Post modern mindset is so prevalent amongst the prophecy community, that simple linguistic vernacular no longer is accepted, and simple logic is not seen as proof of Truth. I Am actually shocked people cannot see this here.

I am reminded of the wisdom of my bible college professor: "when forming end times doctrine, always form that doctrine from the most complete treatise in the bible; then fill in missing pieces from the more brief treatises."  I think he was very wise. WE find in Revelation the most complete treatise of End times. Jesus gave us only the briefest of outlines.  Up to verse 14 Jesus was talking about church age, but mentions "the end" in verse 14. Then, He jumped completely over the trumpet judgments in the first half of the week and landed on the midpoint of the week: the abomination that divides the week.

I agree: the man of sin entering the temple will be the abomination Jesus spoke of. It will be what stops the daily sacrifices as in Daniel 9:27 - and divides the week.  I think we are agreed that the days of GT will most certainly be inside the final week, but we disagree as to when. Most of the church world places those days correctly as in the last half of the week, where Jesus places them.

It is not the last half of the week that is shortened, it is going to be the number of days INSIDE the last half of the week that will be days of GT. AT some unknown time in the last half, God is going to have the vials and plagues poured out to SHORTEN those days. These vials and plagues will render the armies of the Beast helpless.