Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[iamlamad]

9 hours ago, The Light said:

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He wrote: "Actually, the seals are the tribulation period..."  No, the seals are church age - that is the first 5 seals. The 6th starts the Day of the Lord.

This has been disproved many times by many posters. Done it, seen it done.

Well, I guess it has been proven in the mind of those posters! But it certainly has not really be proven at all. How can one prove error as truth?  These posters just read over Rev. 4 and 5 and ignore what John is saying. I did not write it: John did.

Rev. 5:⁶ And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

When was the Holy Spirit sent down? Perhaps you just don't know. Jesus said that as soon as He ascended, He would send the Holy Spirit down.  This is scripture, not imagination. John is showing us here the moment Jesus entered the throne room for the first time after His resurrection, right after telling Mary not to touch Him for He had not yet ascended. This is God - the creator of the universe - telling us something. Yet most people read right over it and ignore the message. 

If you have done it, seen it, why did you never try to answer Jesus' question asked to me:

“John watched a search to find one worthy to break the seals, a search that end in failure, and that is the very reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Go ahead! Disprove what Jesus said to me: that John watched a search in heaven, on earth and under the earth and that search ended in failure - so John wrote "no man was found" worthy to take the book and open the seals. 

[dhchristian]

Just now, iamlamad said:

I know, some very well intentioned people imagine the 5th seal is about the martyrs of the 70th week. They are 2000 years off. This seal was opened in time for Stephen. 

Quick question for you Iamlamad, How is it that the martyrs who die for the testimony of Christ Jesus in the 70th week are any different than Stephen and the church age martyrs? 

I agree with you on the 5th seal being opened 2000 years ago in time for Stephen. 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

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The vials or bowls is just a different view of the trumpets.   I would hope you and I both know this is nonsense: 1/3 cannot possibly be compared with total.

Nonsense is thinking that the tribulation period occurs during the wrath of God.

I just take John and what He wrote for truth. I formed my theory of Revelation from the script AS WRITTEN. I have never made any attempt to rearrange what John wrote to fit some wild theory that requires rearranging. 

Here is truth:  God our Father was holding a BOOK in His right hand. And angel cried out, "WHO IS WORTHY" to take this book and open the seals? John makes it very clear that this book is exceedingly important! Then John takes us one seal at a time as Jesus opens them. So what do most readers do? They forget the book.  Once John begins opening the seals, they forget the purpose of the seals: to seal the book. After the 7th seal is opened, they forget to the book! 

The truth is, the PURPOSE in opening the seals is so that the BOOK can be opened. Without a doubt, the book contains at the very least, the trumpet judgments. No trumpet can possibly be sounded until all seven seals are opened. 

Where then does JOHn start God's wrath? Of course, at the 6th seal. This is before any trumpet judgment  - but just before.  It would be ridiculous to imagine that God is angry at the 6th seal (or some say it is only mentioned at the 6th seal but begins at the 7th) and they immediately gets over his wrath for the trumpets - then gets angry again for the vials. No, the message of John is that God begins wrath at the 6th seal in chapter 6 and continues on through the trumpets and vials. In case you missed it - and it seems you have - "the tribulation period" or the 70th week is in these SAME CHAPTERS! Perhaps you just don't know: God is going to use the vials of His wrath to SHORTEN those days of GT. Therefore, the days of great tribulation (Satan's wrath) are at their peak when God pours out the vials of HIS wrath. Therefore, it is ridiculous to imagine that one can separate God's wrath and Satan's wrath according to TIME.  They are concurrent. 

Oh, I am well aware that some place the GT in the early seals, thereby imagining that they can separate Satan's wrath from God's wrath - but it is all just imagination. It is rearranging John's book. As I have always said, ANY rearranging to fit some theory is going to be proven wrong. Just so you will know: the 70th week is marked by 7's. It is easy to discover: 7th seal  - 7th trumpet - 7th vial.

[iamlamad]

11 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Quick question for you Iamlamad, How is it that the martyrs who die for the testimony of Christ Jesus in the 70th week are any different than Stephen and the church age martyrs? 

I agree with you on the 5th seal being opened 2000 years ago in time for Stephen. 

A martyr is a martyr is a martyr. They are are killed because they love Jesus and Satan hates Jesus. But God has separated the church age martyrs from the Day of the Lord or 70th week martyrs.  In other words, the only difference is WHEN they are martyred. The 70th week martyrs are mentioned in chapter 15 and in chapter 20. 

[iamlamad]

10 hours ago, The Light said:

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The rapture of the Church is the pretribualtion rapture. This occurs at the trump of God. We can see the Church in heaven in Rev 5.  One Light, do you see the problem here? This is NOT the time of the rapture. The 5th seal  - the martyrs of the church age - show us the rapture has not happened yet at the 5th seal.   I give up!

The Church is in heaven in Rev 5, simple as that. What must happen before the martyrs get what they are requesting is that there are more from the 12 tribes that must be killed. The Gentiles are already in heaven. The fulness of the Gentiles has come in.

You are only showing the readers that you have very little understanding of Rev. 4 & 5.  Please tell me you don't imagine that the rapture is in Rev. 4:1! That myth has been proven wrong countless times by now. Rev. 5 is still talking about the time of Jesus' Resurrection (He prevailed over death to become worthy to take the book and open the seals) and His ascension after His resurrection. Sorry, you are 2000 years off in your imagination. 

By the way, the Gentile church of today is not going to be in heaven UNTIL the rapture takes them there. Perhaps you need to do more study in 1 thes. 4 & 5 and find out where PAUL places his rapture. (Hint: it is just before the Day of the Lord.)

[dhchristian]

7 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

A martyr is a martyr is a martyr. They are are killed because they love Jesus and Satan hates Jesus. But God has separated the church age martyrs from the Day of the Lord or 70th week martyrs.  In other words, the only difference is WHEN they are martyred. The 70th week martyrs are mentioned in chapter 15 and in chapter 20. 

Thanks, Just curious how you view this. 

[The Light]

3 hours ago, iamlamad said:

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It is not my fault at all that you don't understand the intent of the author at the 5th seal. Just so you know, the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. Stephen, for example, had no idea how long it would be before God would judge the world. It has been almost 2000 years and still God has not judged the world. They were told they had to wait - and wait is certainly what they have had to do. They have to wait for their total number. That number is not fulfilled yet, for members of Christ's body on earth are still being martyred. These martyrs will have to wait for that final martyr, and then judgment will come. 

The church age is over before the 5th seal is opened. We see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. The fulness of the Gentiles will have come in and God will turn his attention to the 12 tribes. The seals have yet to be opened and when they are opened those that are here will be in the tribulation.

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What event is going to end the age of grace that we are in? Perhaps you just don't know. The age of grace is going to end with the pretrib rapture of the church. According to Paul, the next moment in time will the the Day of the Lord, which, in case you don't know, begins God's wrath - which is the start of God's judgment on earth. 

There is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. The tribulation occurs during the seals. The wrath of God occurs during the trumpets.

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Therefore, no imagination needed: just understanding these scriptures. 

*looks at floor, shakes head in dismay, chuckles*

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I know, some very well intentioned people imagine the 5th seal is about the martyrs of the 70th week. They are 2000 years off. This seal was opened in time for Stephen. 

The 144,000 first fruits prove this incorrect, but since you think Revelation is written in chronological order you will never get it.

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by The Light

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

The church age is over before the 5th seal is opened. We see the Church in heaven in Rev 5. The fulness of the Gentiles will have come in and God will turn his attention to the 12 tribes. The seals have yet to be opened and when they are opened those that are here will be in the tribulation.

You said this before, but you off no scriptural proof. Please show us WHY you believe this with scripture.

Please then show us why (with scripture or argument) you believe "the tribulation" starts with the first seal.

[iamlamad]

7 hours ago, The Light said:

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What event is going to end the age of grace that we are in? Perhaps you just don't know. The age of grace is going to end with the pretrib rapture of the church. According to Paul, the next moment in time will the the Day of the Lord, which, in case you don't know, begins God's wrath - which is the start of God's judgment on earth. 

There is a difference between the tribulation and the wrath of God. The tribulation occurs during the seals. The wrath of God occurs during the trumpets.

Please, show us this difference with scripture that proves what you say. Can you prove with scripture that "the tribulation" occurs during the seals? Can you prove with scripture this "difference" you think exists?  

Can you prove any connection at all between the 144,000 and the 5th seal?

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, iamlamad said:

It is not my fault at all that you don't understand the intent of the author at the 5th seal. Just so you know, the 5th seal is the martyrs of the church age. Stephen, for example, had no idea how long it would be before God would judge the world. It has been almost 2000 years and still God has not judged the world. They were told they had to wait - and wait is certainly what they have had to do. They have to wait for their total number. That number is not fulfilled yet, for members of Christ's body on earth are still being martyred. These martyrs will have to wait for that final martyr, and then judgment will come. 

What event is going to end the age of grace that we are in? Perhaps you just don't know. The age of grace is going to end with the pretrib rapture of the church. According to Paul, the next moment in time will [be] the Day of the Lord, which, in case you don't know, begins God's wrath - which is the start of God's judgment on earth. 

Therefore, no imagination needed: just understanding these scriptures. 

I know, some very well intentioned people imagine the 5th seal is about the martyrs of the 70th week. They are 2000 years off. This seal was opened in time for Stephen. 

Shalom, iamlamad.

Sorry, bro', but you're forgetting all about the MILLENNIUM! There's a THOUSAND YEARS in between the coming of the Lord Yeshua` the Messiah and the Final Judgment (the Great White Throne Judgment)! The "DAY of the Lord" is a THOUSAND-YEAR DAY! (There'll be no night in His presence as His glory outshines the sun!)