Can we determine the TIMING of the Rapture from Paul?

[dhchristian]

53 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

You're not alone, I have been trying to explain this for years now.  I am not sure that I would say it is 3 dimensional, but certainly not chronological.  In regards to the seven thunders, here is a mystery unto itself that most never touch on or seem to acknowledge, from Revelation 15.

 

Revelation 15  Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

 

7 angels with 7 plagues, which are the last.  Now, everyone stops there and just misses what follows, assuming these 7 plagues are the bowls/vials of wrath, but they are not.  Go further down in the chapter and you get this.

 

Revelation 15: 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests.

 

Again, 7 angels with 7 plagues, and what immediately follows...

 

Revelation 15: 7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever, 

 

Now they are given the 7 bowls/vials.  We get nothing more about the plagues that they already had.  Just something to consider.

I see what you are saying as well. Are these original plagues (15:1) the seven thunders? 

Here is what jumped out at me in the passage. 

And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened: (15:5)

Does this tie into the seventh Trumpet?

And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail. (11:19)

According to my framework, this is a distinct possibility, though I have not considered this before. I Need to pray and study this further, thank you for this. 

 

[wingnut-]

Just now, dhchristian said:

Are these original plagues (15:1) the seven thunders?

 

That's what I am thinking.  We are told nothing more about them, other than that they are last.

 

2 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

Does this tie into the seventh Trumpet?

 

I believe so, but still have no clear answer to that.  To me, it would appear these 7 plagues must come at some time following the 7th trumpet since they are last.

 

3 minutes ago, dhchristian said:

According to my framework, this is a distinct possibility, though I have not considered this before. I Need to pray and study this further, thank you for this.

 

I think we see things in a similar fashion, so it does appear to fit.  Let me know if you come up with anything else.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, wingnut- said:

 

Let's play a little game here called, iamlamad's insistence on chronology.  So why can the millennium not begin at the 7th trumpet iamlamad?  Easy, because two chapters later you have this beast that enters the picture, and he is ruling for 3 1/2 years.  The millennial reign is Christ's reign, with an iron scepter no less.

 

God bless

Did John not write that the kingdoms of the world were transferred to Jesus at the 7th trumpet? I am sure that is what he wrote. Further, he also wrote: "he shall reign for ever and ever. "  And also " thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. " That was written in the perfect active indicative - showing a action completed in the past. Here it was JUST past. 

Make no mistake then: Jesus reign over the kingdoms of the earth begin right there at the 7th trumpet. Keep in mind, the Beast's 42 months of authority are GIVEN to him by God. God said it and will certainly not go back on His word: the Beast will have his 42 months.

The real question is not where the millenniums change, but when the 1000 year reign of Christ officially starts: it must wait for the resurrection of the Old Testament saints at the 7th vial. It must wait for the parable of the tares, and the sheep and goat judgment - to decide WHO will be worthy to join Christ in His reign. We can certainly say that by verse 20:4, He is now ruling with the rod of iron.

[wingnut-]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Make no mistake then: Jesus reign over the kingdoms of the earth begin right there at the 7th trumpet.

 

Brother, I have been trying to explain this to you for years.

 

3 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Keep in mind, the Beast's 42 months of authority are GIVEN to him by God.

 

This cannot run concurrently with the iron scepter reign of Jesus, it is that simple.  You are going to have to take what the Lord gave you and figure out how everything else fits around that fact.  You could have saved yourself years of time by believing what someone else was trying to share with you though. 

 

5 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

The real question is not where the millenniums change, but when the 1000 year reign of Christ officially starts

 

Well, I have a rather simplistic view of this, which just so happens to agree with what you have learned to be true.  God began by choosing the Jewish people to present Himself to the world.  Within that group, He chose another specific group to be their spiritual leaders.  The entire foundation of this 6000 year, young earth belief comes from them, and it is something they still adhere by today.  You can certainly consult some Rabbinical teachings on the subject to see how they view the course of these years, and the different periods within them, but lets specifically focus on the current period they see us in, the Messianic period.

They believe that the last 2000 years have been what they call the Messianic period, and this is the time when they expected the Messiah to come.  Their rejection of Jesus leads them to believe that God has withheld the Messiah due to their iniquity, but we know better.  The point is, they have been spot on in their understanding of how the world timeline goes.  At the end of the 6000 years, we enter the day of the Lord, or another way of saying it, the Sabbath day.  This is what we refer to as the millennial kingdom, and that will be followed at the conclusion of the millennium with the 8th day, which represents new beginnings.

So, you may want to take some time and wipe the slate clean.  Rebuild on the foundation of this knowledge and see where it takes you.

 

God bless

[iamlamad]

Just now, wingnut- said:

 

Brother, I have been trying to explain this to you for years.

 

 

This cannot run concurrently with the iron scepter reign of Jesus, it is that simple.  You are going to have to take what the Lord gave you and figure out how everything else fits around that fact.  You could have saved yourself years of time by believing what someone else was trying to share with you though. 

 

 

Well, I have a rather simplistic view of this, which just so happens to agree with what you have learned to be true.  God began by choosing the Jewish people to present Himself to the world.  Within that group, He chose another specific group to be their spiritual leaders.  The entire foundation of this 6000 year, young earth belief comes from them, and it is something they still adhere by today.  You can certainly consult some Rabbinical teachings on the subject to see how they view the course of these years, and the different periods within them, but lets specifically focus on the current period they see us in, the Messianic period.

They believe that the last 2000 years have been what they call the Messianic period, and this is the time when they expected the Messiah to come.  Their rejection of Jesus leads them to believe that God has withheld the Messiah due to their iniquity, but we know better.  The point is, they have been spot on in their understanding of how the world timeline goes.  At the end of the 6000 years, we enter the day of the Lord, or another way of saying it, the Sabbath day.  This is what we refer to as the millennial kingdom, and that will be followed at the conclusion of the millennium with the 8th day, which represents new beginnings.

So, you may want to take some time and wipe the slate clean.  Rebuild on the foundation of this knowledge and see where it takes you.

God bless

This cannot run concurrently with the iron scepter reign of Jesus, it is that simple  In your mind, but not in mine. I don't see any problem with taking John at his word: Jesus' reign starts right then. Your theory then just don't hold water. It goes without saying that the person GIVING authority has more authority than the one to whom authority is given.  HOWEVER, perhaps the iron scepter does not begin until the OFFICIAL START of the 1000 years - perhaps 75 days after the week ends. (1290 days and 1335 days).

My question to you is, what are you going to do with the written word that says His reign starts right then? Does your theory then require you to move the 7th trumpet to the start of the reign - after the week has finished, and after the sheep and goat judgment? Perhaps you want the 7th trumpet to align with His coming in chapter 19?

I don't see that we are that far apart. We both agree that His reign begins at the 7th trumpet. I will wait until you answer one where you hope to move the 7th trumpet! 

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Paul didn't have the Bible like we do today. I don't think I would be comparing myself to Paul if I were you. I guess we can all assume if God decides to write a couple more chapters of the Revelation you are the man to do it.

It is a fact that many think it was PETER that God was going to build His church on. WRONG! Peter was a small pebble. It was revelation knowledge that was the huge ROCK.  You are right, NO ONE has survived what Paul survived, then wrote that it was "light afflictions!" Paul was an amazing man! I hope to meet him one day.

[wingnut-]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

My question to you is, what are you going to do with the written word that says His reign starts right then? Does your theory then require you to move the 7th trumpet to the start of the reign - after the week has finished, and after the sheep and goat judgment? Perhaps you want the 7th trumpet to align with His coming in chapter 19?

 

Brother, I don't have to move it, that is where all of scripture places it, with His coming.  You are just going to have to realize that it is not chronological, which is why I have been pointing the 7th trumpet out to you as the main argument for that fact for years.  Jesus cannot be reigning from Jerusalem at the same time as the beast, think about it!  Or better yet, ask the Lord about it.

I'll tell you right now brother, this is exactly how it happened with me.  The Lord opened my eyes to the truth in regards to something I asked Him about, and my entire eschatology view was changed.  Don't believe me, don't take my word for it, but you should definitely inquire of Him about it.

God bless

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, wingnut- said:

You're not alone, I have been trying to explain this for years now.  I am not sure that I would say it is 3 dimensional, but certainly not chronological.  In regards to the seven thunders, here is a mystery unto itself that most never touch on or seem to acknowledge, from Revelation 15.

Revelation 15  Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and amazing, seven angels with seven plagues, which are the last, for with them the wrath of God is finished.

7 angels with 7 plagues, which are the last.  Now, everyone stops there and just misses what follows, assuming these 7 plagues are the bowls/vials of wrath, but they are not.  Go further down in the chapter and you get this.

Revelation 15: 6 and out of the sanctuary came the seven angels with the seven plagues, clothed in pure, bright linen, with golden sashes around their chests.

Again, 7 angels with 7 plagues, and what immediately follows...

Revelation 15: 7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever, 

Now they are given the 7 bowls/vials.  We get nothing more about the plagues that they already had.  Just something to consider.

God bless

It should be clear:

⁶ And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

⁷ And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

There will be 7 angels, each with a plague.  Then each angel with a plague gets a vial of wrath, so the plague comes filled with God's wrath. Each bowl has an associated plague - or each plague has a bowl of wrath.

You can believe what you will, but I still say, ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given Chronology to "fit" will be proven wrong.  Mark it down: I have said this for the umteenth time.  Be sure and remind me of this when we all get on the other side.

The minor exceptions are parentheses.

Edited November 2, 2019 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 minutes ago, wingnut- said:

 

Brother, I don't have to move it, that is where all of scripture places it, with His coming.  You are just going to have to realize that it is not chronological, which is why I have been pointing the 7th trumpet out to you as the main argument for that fact for years.  Jesus cannot be reigning from Jerusalem at the same time as the beast, think about it!  Or better yet, ask the Lord about it.

I'll tell you right now brother, this is exactly how it happened with me.  The Lord opened my eyes to the truth in regards to something I asked Him about, and my entire eschatology view was changed.  Don't believe me, don't take my word for it, but you should definitely inquire of Him about it.

God bless

I am sorry, but that is imagination! John (backed by the Holy Spirit) places the 7th trumpet to mark the midpoint of the week - after the first six (sounded in the first half of the week) and before the fleeing in 12:6. If your theory requires it to be at His coming (chapter 19) it is for sure - your theory will be proven wrong.

Oh! WOW! Now you write it plainly for all to understand: You imagine I am saying Jesus is reigning in Jerusalem during the Beast's 42 months! OF COURSE Jesus is not going to be in Jerusalem while the Beast and False Prophet make their homes there!

Sorry, but you are missing something:

The 7th trumpet marks the MIDPOINT of the week - and though the Kingdoms are transferred to Jesus, ,HE REMAINS IN HEAVEN for those 42 months. He does not take physical possession at the 7th trumpet! He does not take physical possession at the end of the week. He will come some UNKNOWN time AFTER the 7th vial has ended the week.  Thanks for clearing this up.

Just so you know, I am frequently asked God about these things.

[wingnut-]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you are missing something

 

Actually no, your end times theology just got even more confused and unbelievable.  

 

45 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Did John not write that the kingdoms of the world were transferred to Jesus at the 7th trumpet? I am sure that is what he wrote. Further, he also wrote: "he shall reign for ever and ever. "  And also " thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. " That was written in the perfect active indicative - showing a action completed in the past. Here it was JUST past. 

 

You need to rethink what you said here if that is your position.  The two do not align with each other.

 

God bless