THE TORAH --- WRONG CONCLUSION

[OldCoot]

On 11/26/2019 at 5:55 AM, BibleGuy said:

So Peter CONTINUED to obey Lev. 11 and required it of others as well.

Well, to some extent.  When Peter was around gentiles with Paul, he was not so much Torah observant.  That is, until the guys showed up who were promoting adherence to the Torah of the Gentiles, then Peter would cow tow to them and be all observant.  And that hypocrisy was pointed out rather virulently by Paul and caused a rift in their relationship for some time.  And Paul was a Pharisee and probably the most learned of all the Apostles.  He did study under Gamliel, who is even today considered a great sage in Judaism.  And Paul took on the Jerusalem Council headed by James, the brother of Yeshua (Jesus), who later ruled that adherence to the Torah by the gentiles was a burden that even their ancestors could not bear.   James ruled that the only requirement of the Gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua was that they abstain from blood and meat sacrificed to idols.   There was no requirement they follow the Leviticus 11 dietary laws. Rather, they follow the Noahic dietary laws.

Genesis 9:3-4 (NKJV) Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

Edited November 28, 2019 by OldCoot

[steve morrow]

1 TIMOTHY 4:3  forbidding to marry and --- COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS--- which GOD hath created to be received with ---THANKSGIVING--- of them which believe and know the truth --4:4--for --EVERY CREATURE OF GOD-- is good and --NOTHING TO BE REFUSED-- if it be received with THANKSGIVING --4:5-- for it is sanctified by the word of GOD AND PRAYER

ROMANS 14:1 him that is weak --IN THE FAITH--receive you but not to doubtfull disputations --14:2--for one believeth that he may eat all things another who--IS WEAK--eateth herbs --14:3--let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth --- for GOD hath received him

2 CORINTHIANS 3:13 seeing then that we have such hope we use great plainness of speech --3:13-- and not as moses which put a vail over his face that the children of israel could not stedfastly look ---TO THE END OF THAT WHICH IS --- ABOLISHED ---

2 TIMOTHY 1:10 but is now made manifest by the appearing of our ---SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST---who hath ---ABOLISHED DEATH---and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

JOHN 8:31 then said JESUS to those jews which believed on HIM --- IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD --- then are you MY disciples indeed

DEUTERONOMY 32:4 HE is the rock HIS work is perfect for all HIS ways are judgement a GOD of truth and without iniquity just and right is HE

JOSHUA 24:14 now therefore fear THE LORD and serve HIM in sincerity and in truth and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood and in Egypt and serve you THE LORD

JOHN 18:37 pilate therefore said unto HIM art thou a king then JESUS answered thou sayest that I am a king to this end came I into the world that I should bear witness ---UNTO THE TRUTH--- everyone that is of the truth heareth MY VOICE

ROMANS 10:17 so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD  

REVELATION 19:13 and HE was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and HIS name is called ---THE WORD OF GOD---

 

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL  

LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR FATHER --- FATHER THANK YOU FOR WHAT IS BEFORE US TO EAT IN JESUS NAME I PRAY AND GIVE THANKS

[BibleGuy]

11 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Well, to some extent.  When Peter was around gentiles with Paul, he was not so much Torah observant.  That is, until the guys showed up who were promoting adherence to the Torah of the Gentiles, then Peter would cow tow to them and be all observant.  And that hypocrisy was pointed out rather virulently by Paul and caused a rift in their relationship for some time.  And Paul was a Pharisee and probably the most learned of all the Apostles.  He did study under Gamliel, who is even today considered a great sage in Judaism.  And Paul took on the Jerusalem Council headed by James, the brother of Yeshua (Jesus), who later ruled that adherence to the Torah by the gentiles was a burden that even their ancestors could not bear.   James ruled that the only requirement of the Gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua was that they abstain from blood and meat sacrificed to idols.   There was no requirement they follow the Leviticus 11 dietary laws. Rather, they follow the Noahic dietary laws.

Genesis 9:3-4 (NKJV) Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood.

"When Peter was around gentiles with Paul, he was not so much Torah observant. "

Peter disobeyed Torah in Gal. 2:13....but Peter later repented of that....so that's about the only exception we have.  After all, Apostles teach Torah (Mt.23:34), and Peter is an Apostle.  So Peter upholds Torah.

"That is, until the guys showed up who were promoting adherence to the Torah of the Gentiles, then Peter would cow tow to them and be all observant. "

But that was Peter's hypocritical observance of anti-Torah Jewish traditions....NOT observance of Torah itself.

Thus, the fully Torah-obedient Paul rebuked Peter (Gal.2:11), Peter repented, and they both moved on, in full Torah-obedience.

 

"And Paul took on the Jerusalem Council headed by James, the brother of Yeshua (Jesus), who later ruled that adherence to the Torah by the gentiles was a burden that even their ancestors could not bear. "

Again wrong.  Ac. 15 opposes TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as proof of SALVATION.  THAT is an ANTI-TORAH yoke.  Torah does NOT require TORAH+CIRCUMCISION as proof of salvation.

Salvation is immediately received by GRACE (Ac.15:11), just as in Ex.33:13, where Moses receives grace FIRST, and THEN Moses responds to the grace by seeking to know God and obey His ways (i.e., obey Torah, given 1K.2:3).

Ac. 15 does NOT oppose Gentile growth in faithful Torah-obedience subsequent to reception of salvation by grace.

Paul goes on to require GENTILES to obey ALL Torah (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

Paul condones an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove Paul "walks orderly according to the Torah" (Ac.21); Paul requires that even Gentiles imitate that Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

Paul says Torah-obedience (Dt.30:14) IS the very word of faith Paul preaches (citing Dt. 30:14 at Rom.10:8), and Gentiles are included in this Torah-obedient Gospel of salvation by faith.

 

"James ruled that the only requirement of the Gentiles coming to faith in Yeshua was that they abstain from blood and meat sacrificed to idols.  "

No.  James ruled that the four rules (Ac.15:20) are the only thing required as proof of Gentile SALVATION (Gr. " σῴζω ", Ac. 15:1,11).

It's about conditions needed as proof of SALVATION.....

It's NOT about conditions needed as proof of SANCTIFICATION....

 

Ac. 15 does not cancel Jesus!  We are sanctified by TRUTH (Jn.17:17); Torah is truth (Ps.119:142); so we are sanctified by Torah.

Ac. 15 does not cancel the Great Commission!  Jesus requires ALL Torah (Mt.5:19) for ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20).

Ac. 15 does not cancel the New Covenant!  The New covenant (inaugurated in Christ's blood, Lk.22:20) is given as TORAH (Jer.31:33;Heb.8:10;10:16), so OF COURSE all Christians should obey the Torah of the New Covenant in which they partake by grace through faith!

After all, the New Covenant consists of Torah being obeyed "from now and forever" (citing Is.59:20-21 at Rom.11:26-27).

Even GENTILES are included in Israel (Eph.2:12); Israelites obey Torah (Mal.4:4); so believing GENTILES properly obey Torah.

Even GENTILES properly obey Torah (Rom.2:27).

 

"There was no requirement they follow the Leviticus 11 dietary laws."

Of COURSE Lev. 11 is not fully required as proof of Gentile SALVATION (Gr. " σῴζω ", Ac. 15:1,11).

Only the FOUR RULES (Ac.15:20) are required as proof of Gentile salvation.

Are these the ONLY rules that a believing Gentile should ever obey?

Of COURSE NOT!

Paul goes on to apply ALL Torah to ALL Gentiles (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

 

"Rather, they follow the Noahic dietary laws."

Ac. 15 says nothing about "Noahic dietary laws".  Your claim, here, stands unsupported.

 

"Genesis 9:3-4 (NKJV) Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. 4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood."

Ge. 9:3-4 is pre-Mosaic-Torah....so it's not relevant to the post-Mosaic-Torah era.

Mosaic Torah applies to GENTILES who join Israel (Dt. 29;Dt.31;Is.56).  Believing Gentiles are ISRAELITES (Eph.2:12;Hos.1 cited at Rom.9:24-26;Ac.7:38+Dt.4:10;Jer.31:31+Heb.8:8;etc.)

Thus, believing Gentiles properly OBEY Lev. 11.

After all, Jesus is ANGRY at those who disobey Torah (Mk.7:8-9,13), so Jesus OBVIOUSLY did not terminate Lev. 11 in Mk.7!

And Jesus' teachings apply to ALL disciples of ALL nations (Mt.28:19-20)....thus even Mt. 5:19 applies to ALL disciples, thus even to Gentiles.....which entails believing Gentiles should obey Lev. 11.

 

blessings...

[OldCoot]

I'll have to disagree with your analysis of Galatians 2.  Just to make sure I wasn't taking things out of line, always a good thing before letting my fingers wack away on a keyboard, I re-read and the context seems Paul  is berating Peter and the others of the circumcision we separating themselves from the Gentiles (a Torah observance) and goes on to say that no one is justified by the works of the Law.  Has nothing to do with traditions.

Torah observance was never required of gentiles who lived in Israel... before, during, and after Yeshua's coming.  It was understood that it is a covenant with the Hebrew people.  There were basic legal prescriptions for gentiles living in Hebrew society, but those same gentiles were not accountable to the Torah as the Hebrew people were.  The 10 Commandments were basic legal tenets of living in Hebrew society, even as they are in many societies today, and set legal precedence for people dealing with other people.

Paul, being a master theologian and  master Rabbinical scholar understood this. Peter being a lay person of theological training would flow back and forth.   Paul did observe Torah as exampled in Acts 21 by attempting to sacrifice at the Temple for the Nazarite vow.  He was accused of telling Jews who lived among gentiles to forsake the Torah, but that was not true. However, as a premier Rabbinical scholar, he understood that those who were not of the Sinai Covenant (gentiles) were not required to observe Torah.

The Covenant that is the foundation of the Torah was made with the Hebrew people with Moshe at Sinai.  Gentiles, even as believers, were and never have been part of that Sinai Covenant.   While all are justified thru Messiah only, that is all the similarity there is.   Even the Centurion of Luke 7 was considered a righteous Gentile, but was also not required to be Torah observant as the Hebrews.  Yeshua was not going to help heal the Centruion's servant until the Hebrews of that local synagogue pleaded with Yeshua to do so.

Gentiles are grafted in and of Abraham because by accepting Yeshua, they have the faith of Abraham.  But the Sinai covenant was not made with Abraham. Abraham was never under the Torah covenant that came out of the Sinai Covenant.    So while gentiles are justified thru the Hebrew Messiah, that does not make them Hebrews.   A cat can have kittens in the oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits.

Edited November 28, 2019 by OldCoot

[Michael37]

19 hours ago, BibleGuy said:

the very Torah of the New Covenant 

I prefer the substance of the New Covenant to the spurious alternative.

Rom 4:1-7
(1)  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found?
(2)  For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3)  For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4)  Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5)  But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6)  Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works,
(7)  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
 

[BibleGuy]

22 hours ago, Michael37 said:

I prefer the substance of the New Covenant to the spurious alternative.

Rom 4:1-7
(1)  What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found?
(2)  For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3)  For what says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4)  Now to him that works is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5)  But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6)  Even as David also describes the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputes righteousness without works,
(7)  Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
 

Paul says the SUBSTANCE of the faith he preaches is TORAH-OBEDIENCE (Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8).

Jeremiah says the SUBSTANCE of the New Covenant is the TORAH OF MOSES (Jer.31:33 cited at Heb.8:10;10:16).

Abraham OBEYED the laws of God (Ge.26:5)...YOU should too....and the laws of God includes the Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

Rom.4:4?  Of COURSE works without faith/grace is bad!  That's why Paul requires justification by LAW (Rom.2:13), FAITH (Rom.5:1), and GRACE (Rom.3:24).  TOGETHER.  ALL.  TOGETHER.

Rom.4:5?  Of COURSE we do not need works with faith!  Agreed!

Paul opposes Law without faith, also in Gal.5:4-5.

James opposes faith without works (Jas.2:24).

Thus we need BOTH!

FAITH AND LAW.

BOTH.

TOGETHER.

And, Rom.4:5 states that the FAITH Paul has in mind is RIGHTEOUS faith...and RIGHTEOUSNESS is something we DO (2Jn.2:29;3:7) being corrected and trained and rebuked by all Torah (2Ti.3:16), or else we are a child of the devil (1Jn.3:10) who will NOT inherit the forthcoming kingdom (Mt.5:20).

God IMPUTES righteous in Rom.4:6 because those of FAITH will be obeying TORAH in FAITH, because FAITH is of TORAH (Mt.23:23;Dt.32:20;Dt.30:14 cited at Rom.10:8;Hab.2:4 cited at Gal.3:11;Ps.119:30,86,138).

Again, God imputes righteousness without faithless works (Rom.4:6), because those of FAITH will be righteously and FAITHFULLY obeying Torah (even sacrificial Levitical Torah, Ps. 51:19).

Again, Rom.4:6 cites Ps. 32...and Ps. 32 confirms that it is good to be BLESSED...and those who are BLESSED obey TORAH (Dt. 30:15-19).

Again, Rom.4:6 cites Ps. 32...and Ps. 32:5 confirms sin is BAD...and sin is violation of TORAH (Is.42:24)....thus it's BAD to disobey Torah....so OBEY!

Again, Rom.4:6 cites Ps. 32...and Ps. 32:6 confirms we should PRAY...and PSALMS ARE PRAYERS (Ps. 72:20)....and Psalms require TORAH (Ps.1;19;119;etc.)....thus we should obey Torah as required in the prayerful Psalms.

After all, Paul applies the Psalms to you (Eph.5:19;Col.3:16); and Psalms require Torah (Ps.1;19;119;etc).  Thus Paul requires Torah!

Again, Rom.4:6 cites Ps. 32...and Ps. 32:10 confirms we should not be WICKED...and the WICKED are not RIGHTEOUS (Ps.1:6)...and the RIGHTEOUS obey all TORAH (Dt.6:25)...so it's BAD to wickedly disobey Torah...so OBEY Torah!

Again, Rom.4:6 cites Ps. 32...and Ps. 32:10 confirms we should TRUST YHVH...and those who TRUST YHVH offer sacrifices of righteousness (Ps. 4:5)...and RIGHTEOUS people obey TORAH (Dt.6:25)...so we should TRUST YHVH in RIGHTEOUS obedience to TORAH!

Again, Rom.4:6 cites Ps. 32...and Ps. 32:10 confirms it is good to be surrounded by God's MERCY...and God's MERCY extends to those who OBEY TORAH (Ex.20:6)...so BE GOOD and enjoy God's MERCY in obedience to TORAH!

Again, Rom. 4:6 cites Ps. 32...and Ps. 32:11 confirms it is good to be RIGHTEOUS...and RIGHTEOUS people obey all TORAH (Dt. 6:25)....so be RIGHTEOUS and obey TORAH!

Again, Rom.4:6 cites Ps. 32...and Ps. 32:11 confirms it is good to be UPRIGHT...and the UPRIGHT obey TORAH (Dt. 12:28)...so be GOOD and UPRIGHT and obey TORAH!

 

After all, Paul (who wrote Rom.4!) applies ALL Torah to you (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

Paul (who wrote Rom.4!) even condoned an animal-sacrifice-laden vow to prove he "walks orderly according to the law" (Ac.21); and Paul requires that we imitate that Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

So, I'm glad you brought up Rom. 4.....but it only helps to support the Biblical viewpoint I've been setting before you....

There's nothing "spurious" about obeying all observable Torah in faith and in grace!  It's required!

blessings...

 

 

[BibleGuy]

On 11/28/2019 at 2:34 AM, steve morrow said:

1 TIMOTHY 4:3  forbidding to marry and --- COMMANDING TO ABSTAIN FROM MEATS--- which GOD hath created to be received with ---THANKSGIVING--- of them which believe and know the truth --4:4--for --EVERY CREATURE OF GOD-- is good and --NOTHING TO BE REFUSED-- if it be received with THANKSGIVING --4:5-- for it is sanctified by the word of GOD AND PRAYER

ROMANS 14:1 him that is weak --IN THE FAITH--receive you but not to doubtfull disputations --14:2--for one believeth that he may eat all things another who--IS WEAK--eateth herbs --14:3--let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth --- for GOD hath received him

2 CORINTHIANS 3:13 seeing then that we have such hope we use great plainness of speech --3:13-- and not as moses which put a vail over his face that the children of israel could not stedfastly look ---TO THE END OF THAT WHICH IS --- ABOLISHED ---

2 TIMOTHY 1:10 but is now made manifest by the appearing of our ---SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST---who hath ---ABOLISHED DEATH---and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

JOHN 8:31 then said JESUS to those jews which believed on HIM --- IF YOU CONTINUE IN MY WORD --- then are you MY disciples indeed

DEUTERONOMY 32:4 HE is the rock HIS work is perfect for all HIS ways are judgement a GOD of truth and without iniquity just and right is HE

JOSHUA 24:14 now therefore fear THE LORD and serve HIM in sincerity and in truth and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood and in Egypt and serve you THE LORD

JOHN 18:37 pilate therefore said unto HIM art thou a king then JESUS answered thou sayest that I am a king to this end came I into the world that I should bear witness ---UNTO THE TRUTH--- everyone that is of the truth heareth MY VOICE

ROMANS 10:17 so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of GOD  

REVELATION 19:13 and HE was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood and HIS name is called ---THE WORD OF GOD---

 

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL  

LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND OUR FATHER --- FATHER THANK YOU FOR WHAT IS BEFORE US TO EAT IN JESUS NAME I PRAY AND GIVE THANKS

Gotta love Scripture!

By the way, Jos. 24:14 confirms we should SERVE God...and those who SERVE God obey TORAH (Jos.22:5).

So let's serve God in obedience to Torah, as He requires!

blessings...

 

[BibleGuy]

23 hours ago, OldCoot said:

I'll have to disagree with your analysis of Galatians 2.  Just to make sure I wasn't taking things out of line, always a good thing before letting my fingers wack away on a keyboard, I re-read and the context seems Paul  is berating Peter and the others of the circumcision we separating themselves from the Gentiles (a Torah observance) and goes on to say that no one is justified by the works of the Law.  Has nothing to do with traditions.

Torah observance was never required of gentiles who lived in Israel... before, during, and after Yeshua's coming.  It was understood that it is a covenant with the Hebrew people.  There were basic legal prescriptions for gentiles living in Hebrew society, but those same gentiles were not accountable to the Torah as the Hebrew people were.  The 10 Commandments were basic legal tenets of living in Hebrew society, even as they are in many societies today, and set legal precedence for people dealing with other people.

Paul, being a master theologian and  master Rabbinical scholar understood this. Peter being a lay person of theological training would flow back and forth.   Paul did observe Torah as exampled in Acts 21 by attempting to sacrifice at the Temple for the Nazarite vow.  He was accused of telling Jews who lived among gentiles to forsake the Torah, but that was not true. However, as a premier Rabbinical scholar, he understood that those who were not of the Sinai Covenant (gentiles) were not required to observe Torah.

The Covenant that is the foundation of the Torah was made with the Hebrew people with Moshe at Sinai.  Gentiles, even as believers, were and never have been part of that Sinai Covenant.   While all are justified thru Messiah only, that is all the similarity there is.   Even the Centurion of Luke 7 was considered a righteous Gentile, but was also not required to be Torah observant as the Hebrews.  Yeshua was not going to help heal the Centruion's servant until the Hebrews of that local synagogue pleaded with Yeshua to do so.

Gentiles are grafted in and of Abraham because by accepting Yeshua, they have the faith of Abraham.  But the Sinai covenant was not made with Abraham. Abraham was never under the Torah covenant that came out of the Sinai Covenant.    So while gentiles are justified thru the Hebrew Messiah, that does not make them Hebrews.   A cat can have kittens in the oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits.

"Has nothing to do with traditions."

Sure it does....the Torah of Moses does not require adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision....that's why Torah-obedient Paul requires TORAH but not adult circumcision (1Cor.7:19).

It was a bogus anti-Torah TRADITION that required adult-male-Gentile-convert circumcision.

 

"Torah observance was never required of gentiles who lived in Israel..."\

Sure it is!  Dt. 29.  Dt. 31.  Is. 56.  2Ti.3:16.  1Jn.5:3.  Jn.14:15.  Mt. 5:19+Mt.28:19-20.

 

"It was understood that it is a covenant with the Hebrew people. "

And GENTILE BELIEVERS are included in COVENANT as fellow ISRAELITES (Dt. 29;Dt.31;Is.56;Eph.2:12;Jer.31:31-33+Heb.8:8-10;etc.;Eph.3:6;Mt.5:5;Gal.3:29)

 

"those same gentiles were not accountable to the Torah as the Hebrew people were. "

Gentile believers were (and ARE!) ALSO accountable to Torah (Dt. 29.  Dt. 31.  Is. 56.  2Ti.3:16.  1Jn.5:3.  Jn.14:15.  Mt. 5:19+Mt.28:19-20.)

 

"The 10 Commandments were basic legal tenets of living in Hebrew society, even as they are in many societies today, and set legal precedence for people dealing with other people."

Rather, the 10 Commandments are a covenant between God and ISRAEL (Dt. 4:13)....

So if the 10 Commandments apply to you, then you are ISRAELITE!  And Israelites obey ALL TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).  We don't pick-and-choose only the parts we like.

 

"Paul, being a master theologian and  master Rabbinical scholar understood this. "

That Paul applies ALL Torah to ALL believers (2Ti.3:16).

 

"Paul did observe Torah as exampled in Acts 21 by attempting to sacrifice at the Temple for the Nazarite vow. "

And Paul requires that imitate Paul's Torah-obedient model (1Cor.11:1;Php.4:9).

 

"However, as a premier Rabbinical scholar, he understood that those who were not of the Sinai Covenant (gentiles) were not required to observe Torah."

Rather, PAUL applies all TORAH to GENTILES (2Ti.3:16;1Cor.7:19).

 

" Gentiles, even as believers, were and never have been part of that Sinai Covenant. "

Wrong.  Now read Dt. 29.  Dt. 31.  Is. 56.

 

"  While all are justified thru Messiah only, that is all the similarity there is.  "

Wrong.  Jesus applies Mt. 5:19 to ALL disciples of ALL nations (given Mt. 28:19-20)...the TORAH is the SAME for us ALL!

 

" Even the Centurion of Luke 7 was considered a righteous Gentile, but was also not required to be Torah observant as the Hebrews. "

Why assume this?

 

"Gentiles are grafted in and of Abraham because by accepting Yeshua, they have the faith of Abraham. "

And the faith of Abraham is expressed in obedience to God's LAWS (Ge.26:5)...and God's LAWS now include the Torah of Moses (1Ki.2:3).

 

"But the Sinai covenant was not made with Abraham. "

The covenant with ABRAHAM is to be fulfilled in conjunction with TORAH (Dt. 6:10)...that's why you CAN'T separate the Abrahamic Covenants from the Torah of Moses now...they now go TOGETHER.

 

"Abraham was never under the Torah covenant that came out of the Sinai Covenant.  "

But the Abrahamic Covenant is now inseparably linked to the Torah of Moses (Dt.6:10).

 

" So while gentiles are justified thru the Hebrew Messiah, that does not make them Hebrews.   "

We are ISRAELITES (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Eph.2:12;Hos.1 cited at Rom.9:24-26;Ac.7:38+Dt.4:10;etc.)

Israelites obey TORAH (Mal.4:4;Jer.31:31-33;Heb.8:8-10).

And, Abraham is HEBREW (Ge.14:13)...and we who are the seed of Abraham are thus also HEBREW, by faith, sharing in the SAME LAND INHERITANCE (Gal.3:29;Mt.5:5).

 

" A cat can have kittens in the oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits. "

True.  And Gentile believers are Israelites (Jer.31:31;Heb.8:8;Eph.2:12;Hos.1 cited at Rom.9:24-26;Ac.7:38+Dt.4:10;etc.), but you can still call them GENTILES too, as does Paul in Rom. 11:13.

 

blessings..

 

 

 

[steve morrow]

bible guy ??? 

REVELATION 22:18 for I testify unto ---every man---that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book --if any man-- shall add unto these things GOD shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book --22:19-- and if any man -- shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy GOD shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city and from the things which are written in this book

OBEYING THE TORAH ---DEUTERONOMY 4:2 you shall not add unto the word which I command you neither shall you diminish ought from it that you may keep the commandments of THE LORD YOUR GOD which I command you 

MATTHEW 7:15 beware of false prophets which come to you in sheeps clothing but inwardly they are ravening wolves 

ACTS 20:29 for I know this that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you not sparing the flock --20:30--also of your ownselves shall men arise ---speaking perverse things---to draw away disciples after them 

PSALM 119:104 through thy precepts I get understanding therefore I hate ---every false way---

PSALM 120:3 what shall be given unto thee --- or what shall be done unto thee thou ---false tongue---

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

2 PETER 2:1 but there were false prophets also among the people even as there shall be false teachers among you who privily shall ---bring in damnable heresies even denying THE LORD that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction

ECCLESIASTES 8:11 because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil

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2 THESSALONIANS 1:7 and to you who are troubled rest with us when THE LORD JESUS shall be revealed  from heaven with HIS mighty angels --2:9-- in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not GOD --- and that obey not the gospel of our LORD JESUS CHRIST

1 PETER 4:17 for the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of GOD and if it first begin at us --- what shall the end be of them that ---obey not the gospel of GOD 

COLOSSIANS 1:5 for the hope which is laid up for you in heaven whereof you heard before in the --- word of the truth of the gospel ---

GALATIANS 5:7  you did run well who did hinder you that you should not obey the truth 

JOHN 14:6 JESUS saith unto him --I am the way -- the truth -- and the life -- no one comes unto THE FATHER but by ME

HEBREWS 5:8 thou HE were a son yet learned HE obedience by the things which HE suffered --5:9--and being made perfect HE became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that ---obey HIM---

ACTS 3:22 for moses truly said unto the fathers a prophet shall THE LORD YOUR GOD raise up unto you of your brethren like unto me HIM shall you hear in all things whatsoever HE shall say unto you --3:23--and it shall come to pass that every soul which will not hear that prophet --SHALL BE DETROYED FROM AMONG THE PEOPLE ---

JOHN 5:46 for had you believed moses you would have believed ME --- for he wrote of ME 

SHOULD WE OBEY THE TORAH OR OBEY JESUS CHRIST 

*******JOHN 14:15 IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP --- MY COMMANDMENTS*******

HEBREWS 7:24 but this man because HE continueth ever --- hath an unchangeable priesthood 

 

LOVING THE LORD JESUS CHRIST