BIG ERRORS: The Bride.

[Retrobyter]

On 12/23/2019 at 9:28 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Quote

 

Hi Dennis,

You always ask so politely. Now when I read Rom. 11: 11 - 31 I also see that the Gentiles are grafted in, but to the Lord not to Israel. we read that the `root` is holy, supports and nourishes, Israel does not do that to us. (see v. 16 - 18)

Yes the title `Lamb` with a capital `L` is one of the Lord`s titles.  King of Israel is another, and also just relates to Israel. The `Lamb` refers to Israel`s sacrifices. We (Body of Christ) know the Lord as the lamb, with a small `l.`  Therefore when we read of the `Lamb` it is always in connection to Israel.

Marilyn.

 

I agree with that. Israel [the Jew's] are God's peculiar people chosen by Him, the apple of His eye. Yep, grafted into the Lord, not to Israel. I don't subscribe to 'replacement theology', whereby the church replaced Israel and God's promises to the Jew's and the nation of Israel. 

Merry Christmas Marilyn!

Shalom, Dennis.

Marilyn is partly correct, but again, one should stick to the Scriptures and pay careful attention to the details. By looking at Romans 11:11-32 with "Christian-colored glasses," I believe she is choosing to ignore the emphasis that Paul put on several words and phrases within this passage. I've highlighted parts to which, I believe, she should pay more attention.

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid!: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them (the children of Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (the children's of Israel) fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob":

27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Isaiah 59:20-21; 27:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

28 As concerning the gospel (Greek: to euaggelion = "the message of good" things), they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' (the patriarchs') sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (God doesn't renege on His gifts or on His calling.) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The "olive tree" doesn't represent the Messiah (the Christ); it represents the ISRAEL of the Messiah, the SAME ISRAEL over which David and Shlomoh ruled and over which the Messiah SHALL rule!

Furthermore, "lamb" or "Lamb" makes no difference AT ALL! First, there are no capital letters or miniscule letters in Hebrew. In Greek, the capital and miniscule letters aren't treated as they are in English. Some Greek versions of the New Testament were ALL in caps! Others, were in all miniscule!

So, when Marilyn said,

"Yes the title `Lamb` with a capital `L` is one of the Lord`s titles.  King of Israel is another, and also just relates to Israel. The `Lamb` refers to Israel`s sacrifices. We (Body of Christ) know the Lord as the lamb, with a small `l.`  Therefore when we read of the `Lamb` it is always in connection to Israel,"

she's unnecessarily confusing the issue. Yeshua` the Messiah WAS one of Isra'el's sacrifices; "The Lamb" is not just a title. He was INDEED their Pesach ("Passover") lamb, crucified when the lambs were being slain, even if they were unaware of what they were doing! Again, there's no reason to unnecessarily divide between the "Body of Christ" and "Israel."

[Marilyn C]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Marilyn.

As always, your input is greatly appreciated. May you and your family have a merry and blessed Christmas as we celebrate Yeshua`s birthday (whenever it was during the year)! May God richly bless you as you worship and serve the Creator!

Hi Retro,

How caring of you bro. Thank you for the kind words and encouragement. Now may you and your family have a safe and blessed time over this Christmas period. And may you have a fruitful New Year in His service.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[TheBlade]

To all celebrating Christs birth bless you in Jesus name. 

Hey Retrobyter not sure what your getting at. Are you applying this(Matt, Mark, luk) to the "bride"? They asked about in heaven whos wife would she be. He answered them on that question about a woman being married more then once and what happens in heaven. As for the bride I see this as the old Jewish wedding.

As for what happens in heaven a tad to much speculation for me  

[Marilyn C]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:22 AM, Dennis1209 said:

Very true. We don't know how long it was between Adam's creation and the fall? I would speculate it had to be at least a few days anyway; because it would take some time to view and name all the 'kinds' of animals. Were they paraded before Adam to name, or as he ran across them did he name them? 

Yep, the Bible does not mention if Adam and/or Eve got around to eating from the tree of life. It's pretty clear though that it was necessary to partake of for their eternal life IMO. It was a blessing from God for them and us he blocked off access to the Tree of Life with the Cherubim and flaming sword. Imagine living in sin for all of eternity?

Another thing that's not mentioned I'm curious about? Is there a when and how often they would have had to eat from the Tree of Life? As spoken of in the book of Revelation: The leaves are for the healing of... Adam & Eve were human flesh and blood; I see no reason why they couldn't accidentally hurt or cut them selves, break bones etc. It's not said they had glorified bodies. In addition to living forever with access to it, would the Tree of Life, its fruit and/or leaves, be used for medicinal purposes?

Interesting thoughts to ponder prior to actually finding out all the questions we have.

Hi Dennis,

Now my mother, (passed on) asked her minister that question about the leaves for the `healing of the nations.` And he said the word is `health` of the nations. That would make more sense, as those on the earth need physical food and plants and leaves etc are for their health.

I believe the whole creation will be `new` and there will be no decay or dying, so no accidents etc. Hard for us to imagine but God made it all good to start with. Once the rulerships are under Christ, then God is well able to make it all good again, (earth not groaning) and especially without the moral rebellion.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

 

The "olive tree" doesn't represent the Messiah (the Christ); it represents the ISRAEL of the Messiah, the SAME ISRAEL over which David and Shlomoh ruled and over which the Messiah SHALL rule!

 

Hi Retro,

`...if the root is holy.....` (Rom. 11: 16) How is Israel `holy.`

`....become a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.` (v. 17) How does Israel `nourish` us?

`...the root supports you.` (v. 18) How does Israel `support` us?

 

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

8 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Furthermore, "lamb" or "Lamb" makes no difference AT ALL! First, there are no capital letters or miniscule letters in Hebrew. In Greek, the capital and miniscule letters aren't treated as they are in English. Some Greek versions of the New Testament were ALL in caps! Others, were in all miniscule!

So, when Marilyn said,

"Yes the title `Lamb` with a capital `L` is one of the Lord`s titles.  King of Israel is another, and also just relates to Israel. The `Lamb` refers to Israel`s sacrifices. We (Body of Christ) know the Lord as the lamb, with a small `l.`  Therefore when we read of the `Lamb` it is always in connection to Israel,"

she's unnecessarily confusing the issue. Yeshua` the Messiah WAS one of Isra'el's sacrifices; "The Lamb" is not just a title. He was INDEED their Pesach ("Passover") lamb, crucified when the lambs were being slain, even if they were unaware of what they were doing! Again, there's no reason to unnecessarily divide between the "Body of Christ" and "Israel."

Hi Retro,

Of course it makes a difference!

lamb - `he was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent.` (Isa. 53: 7)  Here we see the very descriptive language to explain the Lord`s attitude as He was led to die.

Lamb - `Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!` (John 1: 29) This term `Lamb of God,` is clearly a title referring to Israel`s sacrifice of which the Lord was the fulfilment.

Big difference there bro. `a` & `the.`

Marilyn.

[Retrobyter]

22 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

With the accumulation of all these birthday candles, and year upon year, it's sounding better and better! To be frank, the only thing that concerns me about death, is how painful the transition will be and if it will be lingering or not? 

Many times before I respond to a post rather than rely on memory, I may brush up a bit on scripture to insure my thoughts are in order. As we're discussing this topic and glorified bodies, I went to Revelation 21: 4. We all try to form thoughts and try to imagine what it's going to be like in our glorified bodies, the things we may be permitted to enjoy and do etc. It seems pretty clear to me that whichever place ones soul goes to after death, the human senses are retained [sight, sound, touch, smell, taste, hearing and memory]. The 'rich man' had all of these on the torment side of Hades. One of my speculations with our glorified bodies is; our senses might be greatly enhanced, such as; seeing millions of colors, smelling colors, visually seeing notes come off of music, hearing plants and the creation...

Revelation 21:4 (KJV) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. [emphasis added]

Until now when I just looked it up, I've always taken this word "pain" in my common literal sense as in, ouch and hurt. If you would, look up this Greek word pónos and its root word pénēs, and tell me what your thoughts are? 

Have a very Merry Christmas to you and yours!

 

Shalom, Dennis.

Sure.

Revelation 21:4 is in the context of ...

Revelation 21:1-4 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (out of the sky), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great (loud) voice out of heaven (out of the throne) saying,

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

First, just for clarity, here's the Strong's entries in the Greek Dictionary:

4192 ponos (pon'-os). From the base of penees; toil, i.e. (by implication) anguish
-- pain.

3993 penees (pen'-ace). From a primary penoo (to toil for daily subsistence); starving, i.e. Indigent
-- poor. Compare ptoochos.

4434 ptoochos (pto-khos'). From ptoossoo (to crouch); akin to ptooeoo and the alternate of piptoo); a beggar (as cringing), i.e. Pauper (strictly denoting absolute or public mendicancy, although also used in a qualified or relative sense; whereas penees properly means only straitened circumstances in private), literally (often as noun) or figuratively (distressed)
-- beggar(-ly), poor.

4422 ptooeoo (pto-eh-o). Probably akin to the alternate of piptoo (through the idea of causing to fall) or to petomai (through that of causing to fly away); to scare
-- frighten.

4098 piptoo (pip'-to). A reduplicated and contracted form of petoo (pet'-o); (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to petomai through the idea of alighting; to fall (literally or figuratively) -- fail, fall (down), light on.

4072 petomai (pet-om-ahee). Or prolongation petaomai (pet-ah'-om-ahee), or contracted ptaomai (ptah'-om-ahee) middle voice of a primary verb; to fly -- fly(-ing).

We could keep going, but we'll stop there. The study of the words is quite fascinating, but it's a tangent to what we are discussing.

At this point, I would like to introduce the difference between a verb that ends in omega (-oo) and one that ends in omicron-mu-alpha-iota (-omai):

Typically, a verb that ends in omega is an active voice verb; that is, the subject of that verb is the actor.

A verb that ends in omicron-mu-alpha-iota is a passive voice verb or a middle voice verb, both of which have the subject of the verb being the recipient of the action, either by another (passive) or by himself (middle).

Essentially, this is true although it might be a bit simplistic. Thus, "petomai" technically means "to make oneself fly," being in the middle voice.

The word penees is a participle of penoo, the active verb, and the word "ponos" is the abstract noun from that verbal. Thus, this is the word that means "toil" and the "anguish" that comes from such toil, the lack of which would lead to "starving." This foreshadows the text in Revelation 22:3-5:

Revelation 22:3-5 (KJV)

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

It's reminiscent of Genesis 3:17-19:

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

This is the "pain" of this verse.

[Retrobyter]

38 minutes ago, TheBlade said:

To all celebrating Christs birth bless you in Jesus name. 

Hey Retrobyter not sure what your getting at. Are you applying this(Matt, Mark, luk) to the "bride"? They asked about in heaven whos wife would she be. He answered them on that question about a woman being married more then once and what happens in heaven. As for the bride I see this as the old Jewish wedding.

As for what happens in heaven a tad to much speculation for me  

Shalom, TheBlade.

No, they asked about the RESURRECTION. It was "in the Resurrection" that the Sadducees did not believe! Consequently, that was the design of their argument. They DESIGNED the seven-brothers-with-one-wife scenario targeted to "disprove" the Resurrection! Their argument has NOTHING to do with "what happens in heaven," nor does it have anything to do with the "bride."

Stay with us, bro', and hang in there! Hope you had a good Christmas, and if you celebrate Chanukkah, too, happy Chanukkah!

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

Of course it makes a difference!

lamb - `he was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent.` (Isa. 53: 7)  Here we see the very descriptive language to explain the Lord`s attitude as He was led to die.

Lamb - `Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!` (John 1: 29) This term `Lamb of God,` is clearly a title referring to Israel`s sacrifice of which the Lord was the fulfilment.

Big difference there bro. `a` & `the.`

Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn.

No, not really. You see, in neither Greek nor Hebrew are definite articles treated as they are in English. The absence of the definite article in Hebrew, the hei prefix with a patach vowel pointing (ha-) doesn't mean that the word "the" wouldn't be supplied in the translation, and vice versa. The same is often true in the Greek language, although the definite article (masculine singular "ho," feminine singular "hee," neuter singular "to," masculine plural "hoi," feminine plural "hai," or neuter plural "ta") is a separate word from the object it defines in the same case as the object is.

In Isaiah 53:7, the Hebrew word is "kasseh," translated as "as a lamb," and the root word is "seh" meaning "lamb." The "k-" prefix means "like" or "as," and the "patach" vowel sound (a single, horizontal line under a letter, pronounced "ah" as in "father") following the "k-" prefix refers to the definite article "ha-." Thus, the definite article IS found in the word "kasseh" even though it wasn't put in the translation.

Marilyn, my sister, you're just putting too much trust in a difference that doesn't exist! Why? You see, we, whether Jew or Gentile, ARE grafted into the Messiah's Israel, the same Israel over which David and Shlomoh (Solomon) ruled and reigned. Yeshua` SHALL rule and reign upon the earth over His Kingdom during the Millennium, and His Kingdom will have its capitol as Yerushalayim (Jerusalem).

Then, after the GWTJ, His Kingdom will continue - FOREVER - in the New Jerusalem or Yerushalayim Chadashah, after it lands upon the New Earth. The biggest difference between the Millennium and the New Earth will be that Yeshua` shall be the World Emperor during the Millennium as He grows the Empire for His Father. After the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ), His Father, God, will be the World Emperor, and Yeshua` shall be His subordinate.

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Retro,

(1) `...if the root is holy.....` (Rom. 11: 16) How is Israel `holy.`

(2) `....become a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree.` (v. 17) How does Israel `nourish` us?

(3) `...the root supports you.` (v. 18) How does Israel `support` us?

 

regards, Marilyn.

Shalom, Marilyn, my sister.

(1) The word "holy" is often mistaken for "righteous." They do NOT mean the same thing! The only thing that "holy" means is that it is something that is DEDICATED to God. Good or bad, that thing is SET ASIDE for God to use as He sees fit.

The Hebrew word is "kaaVowd" and that word with the negative particle produced the name "'Iy-kaaVowd" (transliterated as "Ichabod") and translated as "the glory has departed."

350 'Iy-kaaVowd (ee-kaw-vode'). From 'iy and kaaVowd; (there is) no glory, i.e. Inglorious; Ikabod, a son of Phineas
-- I-chabod.

336 'iy (ee). Probably identical with 'ay (through the idea of a query); not
-- island (Job 22:30).

3519 kaaVowd (kaw-vode'). Rarely kabod {kaw-bode'}; from kaaVad; properly, weight, but only figuratively in a good sense, splendor or copiousness
-- glorious(-ly), glory, honour(-able).

335 'ay (ahee). Perhaps from 'aiyn; where? Hence how?
-- how, what, whence, where, whether, which (way).

370 'ayin (ah-yin'). Probably identical with 'ayin in the sense of query (compare 'iy);
--where? (only in connection with prepositional prefix, whence) -- whence, where.

369 'ayin (ah'-yin). As if from a primitive root meaning to be nothing or not exist; a non-entity; generally used as a negative particle
-- else, except, fail, (father-)less, be gone, in(-curable), neither, never, no (where), none, nor, (any, thing), not, nothing, to nought, past, un(-searchable), well-nigh, without. Compare 'aiyn.

3513 kaaVad (kaw-vad'). Or kaaVeed {kaw-vade'}; a primitive root; to be heavy, i.e. In a bad sense (burdensome, severe, dull) or in a good sense (numerous, rich, honorable); causatively, to make weighty (in the same two senses)
-- abounding with, more grievously afflict, boast, be chargeable, X be dim, glorify, be (make) glorious (things), glory, (very) great, be grievous, harden, be (make) heavy, be heavier, lay heavily, (bring to, come to, do, get, be had in) honour (self), (be) honourable (man), lade, X more be laid, make self many, nobles, prevail, promote (to honour), be rich, be (go) sore, stop.

Today, we might also use the word "important" in the positive sense of "weighty." Israel is "weighty" or "important" or "dedicated" to God, whether they are righteous or not! They are not particularly worthy of such honor, but they are GIVEN that honor for the sakes of their Fathers - the Patriarchs.

(2) and (3) Frankly, it may NOT always nourish or support a Gentile believer (as it should and as it could), for Gentile believers have become too independent of Israel without knowledge of their roots, and therefore are ignorant of the blessings they are missing. I learned a statement back when I was in fourth grade that I've remembered all my life, having found it to be true often:

"You don't know that you don't know what you don't know."

SOMETIMES "ignorance is bliss," but more often than not "ignorance is dangerous and inexcusable!"

However, the list of benefits is found in a couple of places in Scripture:

Ephesians 2:1-22 (KJV)

1 And you (Gentile Ephesian believers) hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in hiskindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, somaking peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the holy ones), and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Romans 3:1-2 (KJV)

1  What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them (the Jews) were committed the oracles of God.