Unbiblical leader/elder

[Wesley L]

9 hours ago, LonerAndy said:

The pagans say "question authority".  That is not how a Christian should live.   We are in this world, but we are not supposed to be of the world, and acting like the pagans around us.  The last thing a Christian should ever do, is confronting the leadership of the church.     The only exception is if you yourself are part of Church leadership, and you did not indicate as much.  Even if you were part of Church leadership, then you confront behind closed doors, in private meetings where you discuss things in a respectful manor.

But if you are not in leadership, then writing open letters to the entire congregation, is way over stepping your bounds.  You have only been at this church for 2 years, and you are trying to flip the place upside down on people that have been there for decades?

The only proper course of action, is to talk to the other elders of the church, and then it is up to them to confront if there is a problem.  And if they decide there is no problem, you need to accept that.  Again, obey the authority G-d has placed in your life.

Replying to this part of your feedback:

- Does the bible tell us not to question authority? Or does the bible just tell us to obey authority?
- Aren't we supposed to test every spirit and hold on to which is good?
- I am not part of the leadership, only serving in church. (there is only one leader in church, which is unbiblical, and that is the elder we are talking about now)

- Months ago I had an one on one meeting with him. Later on 2 other meetings followed including other church members, talking about these issues. IDuring the last meeting, I really did put my pride aside and tried to explain to him the points. I also shared that Jesus taught us to be humble and He even washed the feet of His desciples and that we all are to follow His ways. The elder's reply was:"I will never wash your feet!" Then the period after he kept focussing on me openly, finding faults, eliminating me from the worship team. My wife was so disturbed by his open messages against me (church chatgroup), that she decided not to go to church anymore.  That is when I decided to write the open letter.

- I am trying to follow God's word. I don't dare to think of flipping anything around. God will make the amends.  My prayer is that he will repent and trust in Jesus.

- I have talked to other older & younger members of the church. They see the problem, they have the same problems with him, but they chose to ignore him... (in my eyes, to let him die in his sins). I just thought that this was not the right way.

- Yes, obeying  authority I agree, obeying the rules. But I really have trouble accepting the situation as it is. Just another example, he can snub at his wife just before we start a group prayer. When we are in His Holy church, before praying to the Holy God. How can you talk to your wife that way? The OT priests had to be clean before entering the temple. This elder may say bad things in the temple? So I choose to obey God above him and tried to find in the bible the proper way of action. 

Matthew 18:15-17 
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

[Justin Adams]

On 1/22/2020 at 10:13 AM, Wesley L said:

How do you see this situation?
How should a biblical leadership structure be within such a small congregation?
 

First, let me suggest you disown the use of TOXIC. That is a label for substances that are dangerous. It should not be used for another human made in the image of God.

I have been thus labeled and it is so damaging. It is a neuveaux term conjured by leftist godless media. The aim is to do damage.

Anyway, let us be ever so careful about casting stones...

[Wesley L]

11 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

First, let me suggest you disown the use of TOXIC. That is a label for substances that are dangerous. It should not be used for another human made in the image of God.

I have been thus labeled and it is so damaging. It is a neuveaux term conjured by leftist godless media. The aim is to do damage.

Anyway, let us be ever so careful about casting stones...

I have edited the topic.
About casting stones part. That is a good point. When are we to warn brothers about their sins and what are our biblical boundaries set by God?
I think the bible comes with warnings and teachings on how we should act. More importantly on how our heart should be towards others. If our heart is unclean, our words and actions will be unclean. Thus not acceptable to God, not glorifying God.

Below some scripture to sum up the reasons of my actions towards the elder.

Luke 6:28 
Bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Matthew 5:44
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 7:15-20 
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Galatians 5:22-23
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Proverbs 13:20 
20 Walk with the wise and become wise, for a companion of fools suffers harm.

Mark 9:42
42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea.

Ephesians 4:31-32
31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Romans 12:2
2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 John 4:1 
4 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Ephesians 5:11 
11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

Luke 17:3 
3 So watch yourselves. “If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them."

Proverbs 9:8
8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
 

I really hope he is wise in God eyes and listen to His words. Repent and trust in Jesus.

[Justin Adams]

13 minutes ago, Wesley L said:

About casting stones part. That is a good point. When are we to warn brothers about their sins and what are our biblical boundaries set by God?

This is a very important point. At what stage should we attempt to 'steady the ark'. Whoa, very tenuous... very easy to do stuff in what we think is a righteous manner, yet yields fruit of different dimension. Ha-satan is the accuser and to follow in that way should be avoided like the plague. We should set standards by our own actions and words, and if called upon, to say words fittingly appropriate.

If we pray ten times more the words than we might use to be critical, then God is quite able to tell that erring person directly. I have had the scriptures used against me in the past, and the person thus armed is formidable, yet quite wrong.
Scriptures should build up and not tear down. For every fault you might find, look for nine other positive things and focus on those. If you want someone to listen to a word of caution, make sure you have many prior words of encouragement. Then they might hear you...

[Wesley L]

45 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

This is a very important point. At what stage should we attempt to 'steady the ark'. Whoa, very tenuous... very easy to do stuff in what we think is a righteous manner, yet yields fruit of different dimension. Ha-satan is the accuser and to follow in that way should be avoided like the plague. We should set standards by our own actions and words, and if called upon, to say words fittingly appropriate.

If we pray ten times more the words than we might use to be critical, then God is quite able to tell that erring person directly. I have had the scriptures used against me in the past, and the person thus armed is formidable, yet quite wrong.
Scriptures should build up and not tear down. For every fault you might find, look for nine other positive things and focus on those. If you want someone to listen to a word of caution, make sure you have many prior words of encouragement. Then they might hear you...

"If you want someone to listen to a word of caution, make sure you have many prior words of encouragement. Then they might hear you..."
Is this biblical? What I have understood from Proverbs 9:8, the wise will listen. The "unwise" will be mockers and hate you if you tell them the truth.

My thought was:
We christians must make sure that what we do and say and the condition of our heart must be in line with the Spirit. (fruits of the spirit)
If we do that, we are representing His words.
And when a brother is in Truth and in Spirit, he will love you for what you say. (even when you rebuke him)
And when a brother is NOT in Truth and in Spirit, he will hate you for what you say.

I believe I can in no way make someone willing to listen. It is the pride of someone that blocks his ears.
This doesn't mean we shouldn't show compassion, understanding and appreciation. If I have hatred in my heart, hatred will also come out of my mouth and actions. Certainly, no one will listen to that.

If the elder is in Truth and in Spirit, he will put aside his pride, hear and obey God's words.
 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Wesley L
grammar

[BeauJangles]

On 1/22/2020 at 2:13 AM, Wesley L said:

This has been bothering me for months now. Because of my opinion, he is openly attacking me for not obeying certain rules in Church.
- wearing wrong clothes
- arriving late, disturbing the preaching. (Note that I arrived late because the moment before I was standing on the streets sharing the Gospel to passerby)
- disagreeing with him

If these things are substantially robbing your peace with the Lord about these issues, perhaps another congregation would be more to your liking. Just saying. I might if I allowed it to get the better of me. On the other hand, if you feel God has placed you there, then it might be something that you're personalizing inwardly with some kind of resentment? Only you could be the one to make that call. There may be a lot of annoying things and situations going on in the church you attend, but you're never going to change anyone but your own attitude towards what makes you upset. 

Edited January 24, 2020 by BeauJangles

[Wesley L]

15 minutes ago, BeauJangles said:

If these things are substantially robbing your peace with the Lord about these issues, perhaps another congregation would be more to your liking. Just saying. I might if I allowed it to get the better of me. On the other hand, if you feel God has placed you there, then it might be something that you're personalizing inwardly with some kind of resentment? Only you could be the one to make that call. There may be a lot of annoying things and situations going on in the church you attend, but you're never going to change anyone but your own attitude towards what makes you upset. 

Indeed it crossed my mind that God somehow place me there. One side to humble me, as I am someone who won't easily turn away from problems when they need fixing. What I have learned is that I am not the one to fix certain problems in church, I believe God will do the fixing in His way and His timing.
All churches I go will have their own problems, because I am part of the problem. (from a sermon from one of our pastors) What I have learned is to start with myself. (similar as in a relationship)

Resentment, yes. For example, if you see a big guy bullying a weaker guy, you would feel the same resentment. And when that happens in church, I would feel anger. Not because I find myself that important. But I feel repulsion towards hypocricy. It happens in the temple of God by a church leader.
In all these years, many have left the church for this reason.  Some have stayed. (i have been told)

If he wasn't the church leader, i wouldn't have bothered that much. But he should be the example, the shepperd of sheep. His actions affect everybody. Something is just not right. And keeping silent was not an option. (or was it? from a biblical point of view?)
 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Wesley L

[Wesley L]

Maybe this would help to give you all a better insight.

One day, I asked the elder:"Do you sometimes worry whether one of our church members are not saved?"
(The reason for this question was because I could sense that some church members were not totally clear what salvation by faith truly meant).

His answer was (annoyingly):"Why do you ask this? They are all baptized with water." End of discussion... I was perplexed. But also got my answer.

[LonerAndy]

11 hours ago, Wesley L said:

Replying to this part of your feedback:

- Does the bible tell us not to question authority? Or does the bible just tell us to obey authority?
- Aren't we supposed to test every spirit and hold on to which is good?
- I am not part of the leadership, only serving in church. (there is only one leader in church, which is unbiblical, and that is the elder we are talking about now)

- Months ago I had an one on one meeting with him. Later on 2 other meetings followed including other church members, talking about these issues. IDuring the last meeting, I really did put my pride aside and tried to explain to him the points. I also shared that Jesus taught us to be humble and He even washed the feet of His desciples and that we all are to follow His ways. The elder's reply was:"I will never wash your feet!" Then the period after he kept focussing on me openly, finding faults, eliminating me from the worship team. My wife was so disturbed by his open messages against me (church chatgroup), that she decided not to go to church anymore.  That is when I decided to write the open letter.

- I am trying to follow God's word. I don't dare to think of flipping anything around. God will make the amends.  My prayer is that he will repent and trust in Jesus.

- I have talked to other older & younger members of the church. They see the problem, they have the same problems with him, but they chose to ignore him... (in my eyes, to let him die in his sins). I just thought that this was not the right way.

- Yes, obeying  authority I agree, obeying the rules. But I really have trouble accepting the situation as it is. Just another example, he can snub at his wife just before we start a group prayer. When we are in His Holy church, before praying to the Holy God. How can you talk to your wife that way? The OT priests had to be clean before entering the temple. This elder may say bad things in the temple? So I choose to obey God above him and tried to find in the bible the proper way of action. 

Matthew 18:15-17 
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

 

Well you could be right.   I have always thought it best to follow a chain of authority.  If your sister-in-law had a problem with say your mother.   Would you rather her come to you, and discuss the issue, or go directly to your mother and confront her?   I would rather she come to me, and I could discuss it with my mother first, before setting off a bomb in the family.

Equally, if I have a problem with the CEO of my company, it would likely go better to discuss those things with the one of the managers to then bring to the CEOs attention, rather than just showing up at the CEOs office.

Again maybe you are right.

However even in that context...  I would first fix my own behavior.  Meaning I would consistently come on time, and follow the dress code.

Only then would I engage with the man.

As far as being one leader in the church is non-biblical... isn't that something you bring up at the congregational meeting?

I wonder about that.    I know Christian churches that have barely 30 people.  How can you pay for a staff of leadership, with the tithes of barely 30 people?     What about those churches in China, which have just 10 people meeting in a basement?  Are all small churches violating the Bible by not having more people in leadership?   Seems a little unlikely to me.

Just be careful that you are not using godliness to justify your violation of scripture.   You can't say that X-person is doing something wrong, and because I can see it, that means I am holy in violating my duty to obey authority. 

Everything you have described thus far in this thread, is a church that has little redeeming value.   Either you are drastically overstating how bad this church is, or you are describing a Rev 2:5 church.   The Lord has come and taken away the lamp, and there is no light there anymore.

If the Lord has removed the light from this church, then you will not be able to bring it back.

Obviously you know more about it than I do, but just based on what you have said, there isn't much here that shows promise.

 

[LonerAndy]

8 hours ago, Wesley L said:

Maybe this would help to give you all a better insight.

One day, I asked the elder:"Do you sometimes worry whether one of our church members are not saved?"
(The reason for this question was because I could sense that some church members were not totally clear what salvation by faith truly meant).

His answer was (annoyingly):"Why do you ask this? They are all baptized with water." End of discussion... I was perplexed. But also got my answer.

I would need some context, and what was the tone and inflection.   I could very easily see that question being asked in an insulting way.

However, if that is really how the leadership of the church thinks.... and that is possible.....  then I would never confront the leadership on this.  I would have left the church after that very conversation.  Why do you want to bring people to this church, where they might never be saved based on how leadership responds?

Again, sounds like a church that had it's lamp removed.   You are not going to re-light their lamp, because it doesn't sound like they even have a lamp.