Unbiblical leader/elder

[Wesley L]

Hello everyone,

I try to keep this as compact as possible.

I attend our church for 2 years now. It is a small church with 30~40 believers only.
It is a bit different than usual, because we don't have our own pastors. Every week, another pastor from a different church comes and preaches the word of God. The good thing is that we get to hear the word through different pastors. We have clear guidelines for them to preach. For example this period we will do Romans. Starting with Romans 1, next week Romans 2, and so on.

The teachings are biblical. The way church members treat each other is sincere and true.
But there is one big problem in our church, somehow there is only 1 person in charge. He is the one who started to church 23years ago. But his ways are not the ways belonging to a true christian. (lack of sympathy, pride, focussing on rules, unforgiving) A total lack of fruit of the spirit.

This has been bothering me for months now. Because of my opinion, he is openly attacking me for not obeying certain rules in Church.
- wearing wrong clothes
- arriving late, disturbing the preaching. (Note that I arrived late because the moment before I was standing on the streets sharing the Gospel to passerby)
- disagreeing with him

In the beginning, I was quite angry at his loveless ways, which made me vulnerable to temptation. So, I was annoyed and wasn't able to focus on the main points and I did let my frustration disturb my way of speaking to him. I tried to let it rest and focus on the log in my own eye.

Now, last week he was poking again with his rules. Brothers and sisters in the church saw clearly that his actions were directed towards me.
It is not easy to choose to leave the church. As there are fellow brothers and sisters who are in christ.
Others, they had already given up on him, and they are actually ignoring him. 
But, the way I see it, he seems to be walking on the wide path throught the wide gate. Jesus told us to love, even our enemies. How could I pretend I don't see him? (thinking of the parable of the Samaritan) And the fact that he is the only elder making decisions in church, it affects the whole church.

We had a one on one meeting before. We had a meeting before including other church members. Now that he is still the same (and maybe worse) , I decided to write an open letter to him substantiated by scripture. Addressed to him, to be viewed by all members of the church. Advising him to turn back to Christ and that he should focus on our faith in Christ instead of us following his rules exactly. God told us to obey authority and elders. His rules are not the problem, his rules are correct. But he forgot the most important of them all, love God and love one another.

At this moment, I have to wait untill next weekend to see his reactions.
I do hope someday God will turn him back, that would be quite a testimony.

How do you see this situation?
How should a biblical leadership structure be within such a small congregation?
 

[Guest K9Buck]

Perhaps you can share these:

 

https://www.openbible.info/topics/humility

[Tzephanyahu]

Shalom @Wesley L,

5 hours ago, Wesley L said:

This has been bothering me for months now. Because of my opinion, he is openly attacking me for not obeying certain rules in Church.
- wearing wrong clothes
- arriving late, disturbing the preaching. (Note that I arrived late because the moment before I was standing on the streets sharing the Gospel to passerby)
- disagreeing with him

This sounds difficult!  

Is it only you he is picking on?  Is he singling you out?  If so, I would advise a one-to-one discussion with him, with an arranged appointment so that both of you have time to discuss the matter in full.

5 hours ago, Wesley L said:

Now, last week he was poking again with his rules. Brothers and sisters in the church saw clearly that his actions were directed towards me.
It is not easy to choose to leave the church. As there are fellow brothers and sisters who are in christ.
Others, they had already given up on him, and they are actually ignoring him. 

If it's affecting the church as a whole this is a serious problem.  You are right to be concerned.  But I don't think Yahweh would have you fight a one-man mission to overthrow his authority and bring in someone else.  

You want to be very careful at this time as people might start to perceive the situation as "him vs you", and it being a battle in which sides are being drawn.  This will only affect your reputation ultimately - whether he stays or leaves.

Therefore, try to approach the matter peacefully and humbly.  Speak to trustworthy elders in the Church who you can confine in and share your heart.  Perhaps they will witness the matter with you.  And, if they take the matter in hands, they are in a better position to do such a thing than a member of a congregation. 

5 hours ago, Wesley L said:

God told us to obey authority and elders. His rules are not the problem, his rules are correct. But he forgot the most important of them all, love God and love one another.

Yes, love truly is the most important thing to remember.  If he has lost sight of this along the way, it won't work well for him.

However, perhaps you can counter the darkness with light, and focus on ways to share more love at the church if he doesn't.  I know that might sound flowery but bear with me. 

If your mind and heart is focused on "why does he say it like that!" and "what behaviour he shows!", this will start to rule your thoughts and subsequent actions.  For look, you have already written a letter.

But, if you can think on ways to bless someone at the church, offer a good idea or ways you can help your leader (as long as his rules and ideas are good), your thoughts and actions will show before others. 

Then, perhaps when others talk about the church rather than say "yes, the leader is quite odd though, and the atmosphere can be quite tense at times" to instead say "The people there are great, it really feels like a family"

Remain in prayer, seeking for the Lord to bless this leader with wisdom and understanding and remind him of the Yahweh's great love, mercy and grace through the Word and Spirit.  Pray also with others that the leadership and authority of the church will fall inline with Yahweh's will for it.  If after 3 months (not that I want to put a timeframe on the Lord!) of praying like this there is still no change, then perhaps this is how the Lord wants it to be - for whatever unforeseen reason He may have. 

Remember that sometimes Yahweh sends us difficult leaders to challenge us, rather than for us just to find them challenging.  If that's the case, listen with your heart to try understand what lesson you may be being taught through this man.  Yes, he may be harsh and yes, he may be unloving - but what has this brought out in you and how has this affected your walk (meditate along those lines)

I hope it goes well this weekend!

Love & Shalom

[missmuffet]

 wearing wrong clothes
- arriving late, disturbing the preaching. (Note that I arrived late because the moment before I was standing on the streets sharing the Gospel to passerby)
- disagreeing with him

These are issues that a good godly Pastor should not have. It sounds like you are being harrassed. 

[Wesley L]

21 hours ago, Tzephanyahu said:

Remember that sometimes Yahweh sends us difficult leaders to challenge us, rather than for us just to find them challenging.  If that's the case, listen with your heart to try understand what lesson you may be being taught through this man.  Yes, he may be harsh and yes, he may be unloving - but what has this brought out in you and how has this affected your walk (meditate along those lines)

 

Thanks for all the great advises.
I am not the only one experiencing these problems. Actually the whole church has experienced his harsh way of leading.

Yes, I also think the same way. This situation is also testing my faith in Christ.  The frustration could lead to me following my own selfish ways instead of His way.
God humbled me and reminded me to stay true to His words. It doesn't matter whether a saint or a sinner tells us something. If what was said is according to God's will, we should obey, because we obey God.
God tells us to obey authority and elders in church. I am happy to follow His words.

The letter was written with scripture leading. God's words compared to his actions/words. All questioning, without me concluding anything.
I stated clearly that I was not challenging his authority. But only questioning whether he followed God's will and whether his actions and his ways glorify God.
 

Thanks again and pray for God to let him see the light.

[Wesley L]

19 hours ago, Isaiah53NIV said:

Wesley, sounds like you are following what Scripture says. You met with him 1:1, and then you went with others to meet with him, and now you are telling the church.

Sounds like, just based on what you said, that he is being a bully. Is this only directed toward you, or have other members had this difficulty as well? I do not believe it is typical to have a revolving door of pastors. Was it this man's idea to not hire a committed pastor? Usually there is a lead pastor, sometimes an associate pastor (depending on the size of the church), and a team of elders. 

No, not only towards me, others have similar experiences. 
But because I open my mouth talking to him about it, he started picking me out. Warning me of not following the rules. (just like described in Galatians)

I have been to this church only for 2 years, so I am not sure how things became this way.
I believe, if we all trust and follow Christ truthfully, God will shape our church the way He wants it to be.

[Tzephanyahu]

1 hour ago, Wesley L said:

This situation is also testing my faith in Christ.  The frustration could lead to me following my own selfish ways instead of His way.
God humbled me and reminded me to stay true to His words. It doesn't matter whether a saint or a sinner tells us something. If what was said is according to God's will, we should obey, because we obey God.
God tells us to obey authority and elders in church. I am happy to follow His words.

Spoken well my friend. With this attitude, I have confidence that Yahweh will bless you there and, Yahweh willing, soften this man's heart. 

Love & Shalom 

[lovethelord]

On 1/22/2020 at 2:13 AM, Wesley L said:

This has been bothering me for months now. Because of my opinion, he is openly attacking me for not obeying certain rules in Church.
- wearing wrong clothes
- arriving late, disturbing the preaching. (Note that I arrived late because the moment before I was standing on the streets sharing the Gospel to passerby)
- disagreeing with him

Hi Wesley

It seems he may have more of a legalistic faith with his rules and regulations. 

On 1/22/2020 at 2:13 AM, Wesley L said:

The teachings are biblical. The way church members treat each other is sincere and true.
But there is one big problem in our church, somehow there is only 1 person in charge. He is the one who started to church 23years ago. But his ways are not the ways belonging to a true christian. (lack of sympathy, pride, focussing on rules, unforgiving) A total lack of fruit of the spirit.

I understand your predicament because you enjoy the biblical teachings and other church members. You say he started the church you attend, but who owns the building (is it in his name). Can he be asked to step down? Is it possible to go to one of the visiting (rotating Pastor's churches)?

I will pray for you and this situation!

[LonerAndy]

On 1/22/2020 at 5:13 AM, Wesley L said:

Hello everyone,

I try to keep this as compact as possible.

I attend our church for 2 years now. It is a small church with 30~40 believers only.
It is a bit different than usual, because we don't have our own pastors. Every week, another pastor from a different church comes and preaches the word of God. The good thing is that we get to hear the word through different pastors. We have clear guidelines for them to preach. For example this period we will do Romans. Starting with Romans 1, next week Romans 2, and so on.

The teachings are biblical. The way church members treat each other is sincere and true.
But there is one big problem in our church, somehow there is only 1 person in charge. He is the one who started to church 23years ago. But his ways are not the ways belonging to a true christian. (lack of sympathy, pride, focussing on rules, unforgiving) A total lack of fruit of the spirit.

This has been bothering me for months now. Because of my opinion, he is openly attacking me for not obeying certain rules in Church.
- wearing wrong clothes
- arriving late, disturbing the preaching. (Note that I arrived late because the moment before I was standing on the streets sharing the Gospel to passerby)
- disagreeing with him

In the beginning, I was quite angry at his loveless ways, which made me vulnerable to temptation. So, I was annoyed and wasn't able to focus on the main points and I did let my frustration disturb my way of speaking to him. I tried to let it rest and focus on the log in my own eye.

Now, last week he was poking again with his rules. Brothers and sisters in the church saw clearly that his actions were directed towards me.
It is not easy to choose to leave the church. As there are fellow brothers and sisters who are in christ.
Others, they had already given up on him, and they are actually ignoring him. 
But, the way I see it, he seems to be walking on the wide path throught the wide gate. Jesus told us to love, even our enemies. How could I pretend I don't see him? (thinking of the parable of the Samaritan) And the fact that he is the only elder making decisions in church, it affects the whole church.

We had a one on one meeting before. We had a meeting before including other church members. Now that he is still the same (and maybe worse) , I decided to write an open letter to him substantiated by scripture. Addressed to him, to be viewed by all members of the church. Advising him to turn back to Christ and that he should focus on our faith in Christ instead of us following his rules exactly. God told us to obey authority and elders. His rules are not the problem, his rules are correct. But he forgot the most important of them all, love God and love one another.

At this moment, I have to wait untill next weekend to see his reactions.
I do hope someday God will turn him back, that would be quite a testimony.

How do you see this situation?
How should a biblical leadership structure be within such a small congregation?
 

You are not going to like my answer.

In Romans 1:1, Paul calls himself a slave of Christ.  Do slaves argue with their masters?  Do slaves bicker about the rules?   Do slaves start to judge other people?

In Hebrews 13:17 it says the following:

"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

When the Lord calls leadership to account for how this church is run, will you answer, or this other man?   And if it is the other man, then you should submit to his authority.

If the church has a dress code, then you need to follow the dress code.

If the church says you should be on time, then you should be on time.

You need to obey the authority G-d has placed in your life.

And do not justify your mistakes with "well I was sharing the gospel"  as if violating the rules, can be justified.   King Saw in 1 Sam 15:22 was justifying himself by saying he violated the rules in order to sacrifice to G-d.   Samuel replied "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice"    To Obey is better.

If you are supposed to be on time, then be on time.  Do you really think G-d will bless your attempts to spread the Gospel to pagans, when the pagans can see you can't even follow the rules of your church?  You can't even get along with your church leadership?  (pagan just meaning non-christian people)

And by the way, just in general, everyone should be on time for everything.  Period.   Unless someone is hit by a truck, or has a heart attack, or some other crisis... you need to be, where you are supposed to be, when you are supposed to be there.    If you were getting married, and your spouse to be, showed up late, while you were waiting there... and they said "Well I was preaching the gospel to some people going by...." would you really be just fine with that?   You show up late to work, and you get fired.   But you show up late for G-d in Heaven, and then get mad that people are not "loving" about your tardiness?   Is not G-d more important than your job, or your marriage?

Be on time.  In all things.

The pagans say "question authority".  That is not how a Christian should live.   We are in this world, but we are not supposed to be of the world, and acting like the pagans around us.  The last thing a Christian should ever do, is confronting the leadership of the church.     The only exception is if you yourself are part of Church leadership, and you did not indicate as much.  Even if you were part of Church leadership, then you confront behind closed doors, in private meetings where you discuss things in a respectful manor.

But if you are not in leadership, then writing open letters to the entire congregation, is way over stepping your bounds.  You have only been at this church for 2 years, and you are trying to flip the place upside down on people that have been there for decades?

The only proper course of action, is to talk to the other elders of the church, and then it is up to them to confront if there is a problem.  And if they decide there is no problem, you need to accept that.  Again, obey the authority G-d has placed in your life.

So what would I do?

First, I would apologize for the letter.   That was extremely bad form in my view.  

Second, I would obey the authorities G-d has placed in my life.   Your job is to follow the rules, not write them.

Third, and this is only if absolutely required...  if the Church is operating in a way that is absolutely impossible for you to obey the rules....  then you should, without evil, without contention, without bickering or complaining... simply leave the church and go to a church that has rules you can follow.

The truth is, if you can't obey the authorities you can see and hear in this earthly world, how can you follow the authority in Heaven that you can not see and hear?

And lastly, about being loving... now you don't need to be a jerk, but G-d is not always lovey dovey with people.  Sometimes, he just says "Do this".  The end.  Do it.

In Acts 9:14-15, G-d is talking to Ananias, telling him to go see Paul.   Ananias is like, that guy kills Christians, and he's here to kill us!    Does G-d get all sappy and loving, and butter up Ananias to do what he commanded him to do?  Not really.   G-d just says "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel."

Notice that first sentence....  real loving and caring wasn't it "GO!" Said the G-d of all creation.  Do it.   No more chit chat, get up, and get moving. Do what I commanded you to do.

There is a time and place for gentle smooth, loving talk.  Other times, you just need to do as your told.  Wear proper attire!  Be on time!...  That's it.  Do it.

 

[Wesley L]

7 hours ago, LonerAndy said:

You are not going to like my answer.

In Romans 1:1, Paul calls himself a slave of Christ.  Do slaves argue with their masters?  Do slaves bicker about the rules?   Do slaves start to judge other people?

In Hebrews 13:17 it says the following:

"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you."

When the Lord calls leadership to account for how this church is run, will you answer, or this other man?   And if it is the other man, then you should submit to his authority.

If the church has a dress code, then you need to follow the dress code.

If the church says you should be on time, then you should be on time.

You need to obey the authority G-d has placed in your life.

And do not justify your mistakes with "well I was sharing the gospel"  as if violating the rules, can be justified.   King Saw in 1 Sam 15:22 was justifying himself by saying he violated the rules in order to sacrifice to G-d.   Samuel replied "Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice"    To Obey is better.

If you are supposed to be on time, then be on time.  Do you really think G-d will bless your attempts to spread the Gospel to pagans, when the pagans can see you can't even follow the rules of your church?  You can't even get along with your church leadership?  (pagan just meaning non-christian people)

And by the way, just in general, everyone should be on time for everything.  Period.   Unless someone is hit by a truck, or has a heart attack, or some other crisis... you need to be, where you are supposed to be, when you are supposed to be there.    If you were getting married, and your spouse to be, showed up late, while you were waiting there... and they said "Well I was preaching the gospel to some people going by...." would you really be just fine with that?   You show up late to work, and you get fired.   But you show up late for G-d in Heaven, and then get mad that people are not "loving" about your tardiness?   Is not G-d more important than your job, or your marriage?

Be on time.  In all things.

The pagans say "question authority".  That is not how a Christian should live.   We are in this world, but we are not supposed to be of the world, and acting like the pagans around us.  The last thing a Christian should ever do, is confronting the leadership of the church.     The only exception is if you yourself are part of Church leadership, and you did not indicate as much.  Even if you were part of Church leadership, then you confront behind closed doors, in private meetings where you discuss things in a respectful manor.

But if you are not in leadership, then writing open letters to the entire congregation, is way over stepping your bounds.  You have only been at this church for 2 years, and you are trying to flip the place upside down on people that have been there for decades?

The only proper course of action, is to talk to the other elders of the church, and then it is up to them to confront if there is a problem.  And if they decide there is no problem, you need to accept that.  Again, obey the authority G-d has placed in your life.

So what would I do?

First, I would apologize for the letter.   That was extremely bad form in my view.  

Second, I would obey the authorities G-d has placed in my life.   Your job is to follow the rules, not write them.

Third, and this is only if absolutely required...  if the Church is operating in a way that is absolutely impossible for you to obey the rules....  then you should, without evil, without contention, without bickering or complaining... simply leave the church and go to a church that has rules you can follow.

The truth is, if you can't obey the authorities you can see and hear in this earthly world, how can you follow the authority in Heaven that you can not see and hear?

And lastly, about being loving... now you don't need to be a jerk, but G-d is not always lovey dovey with people.  Sometimes, he just says "Do this".  The end.  Do it.

In Acts 9:14-15, G-d is talking to Ananias, telling him to go see Paul.   Ananias is like, that guy kills Christians, and he's here to kill us!    Does G-d get all sappy and loving, and butter up Ananias to do what he commanded him to do?  Not really.   G-d just says "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel."

Notice that first sentence....  real loving and caring wasn't it "GO!" Said the G-d of all creation.  Do it.   No more chit chat, get up, and get moving. Do what I commanded you to do.

There is a time and place for gentle smooth, loving talk.  Other times, you just need to do as your told.  Wear proper attire!  Be on time!...  That's it.  Do it.

 

Thanks, I am happy to hear your feedback. Because this I have been thinking and praying about this situation a lot. One of the reason I put my situation on this forum is also to ask for advice and test whether I have handled correctly / biblically.

To humbly obey the rules is exactly what I have learned during this period. (the ones that are according to God's will, test and hold on to which is good)
Note that it is not the rules that I have a problem with. I know the rules are correct and to be followed.

But I think I am seeing two sides in this situation. One is me obeying God's words by obeying authorothy/rules in church. (be on time, wear proper clothing) Which I have been doing after his reprimands.

But arriving late because I was evangelizing on the streets moments before, I think this could be viewed with some understanding and empathy.
Just as Jesus healed on the sabbath day, the pharisee's objection was a similar objection.
Jesus told us the most important commandment is to love God and to love one another. All laws are derived from these two basic rules.
When we put too much emphasis on keeping the rules without kindness, gentleness, meekness, understanding and love. We easily become a pharisee. We totally miss the point of the laws. By healing on the sabbathday, Jesus reminded us the two most important commandments on which all others are build.

Thus the other side of this situation is: don't focus on keeping laws and rules and forgetting the two most important commandments of Jesus Christ. To love God and to love your neighbour as yourself.

On one side, I see my elder as authority placed by God, to be obeyed. (When according to God's will)
On the otherside, I see my elder as a fellow christian brother, and I am actually worried about his current walk with Christ. 
I think if I wrote the letter out of hatred, then I should apologize. If I wrote the letter as an act of love for the church and his walk with Christ, written in truth and in spirit. My understanding was that it was according to God's will.

Leaving the church was an option, but the parable of the Samaritan reminded me what I had to do. When you see a guy on the road, looking like a dead person, we are to act with compassion and out of love. Leaving would not fit what Jesus taught us. Leaving would be an act of selfishness.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't think that I am the one that can push for changes. I believe God will make the needed changes, we are to obey His teachings and trust in His ways.