Daniel 11

[Charlie744]

On 2/3/2020 at 7:57 PM, Sister said:

Hi Charlie

I have interpreted these verses below to refer to Egypt (King of the South) and Rome (King of the North).  You would have to go to history to get all the fine details, to see if it fits.  I am just stirring you to check out this direction.

 Daniel 11:5   And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

One of Alexander's gerneral's Ptolomy took the south (Egypt).

Out of his lineage, one of his offspring who was ruling in Egypt came up great.  Still the King of the South.

 

  Daniel 11:6   And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

In the end of years - of those years now past,... the King of the South and the King of the North shall join themselves together through the Kings daughter of the south (Cleopatra)

Cleopatra comes on to the scene becoming Julius Caesar's mistress.  Julius Caesar is the King of the North. 

  Daniel 11:7   But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:

I will stop there for now, because it's been a long time since I looked into the details.  Go to history to follow the rest of the story.

We know that the king of the North back then was Rome, and the King of the south Egypt.  The warring started between these two because of Cleopatra and her Roman lovers.

 

 

So kind of you to respond and take the time and consideration to provide this... I have read many of the interpretations which promote the identical or near identical beliefs or interpretations.  But as mentioned in my email / message, I do not believe Daniel 11 brings post Alexander and Antiochus into the final vision.  I have a few reasons for this but I do not want to create a disturbance with anyone who is committed to the current views. I am asking anyone to assist me in identifying a different interpretation  - essentially, assume there were no current interpretations attached to Greece or Antiochus and begin a clean slate.......  Because there can be so many rabbit holes, I am trying two approaches:

1) begin with verses 5 and 6 only and see what other options (individuals and events) the characters / actors could represent. For example, could the KOS be either Herod or his son Agrippa 1 and the prince is the Messiah. End of years is after the vision / crucifixion, the Christian Jews will attempt to spread the Good news to the gentiles (north) but it will meet with significant problems and eventually will be taken over by papal Rome (it will not retain its arm), but a branch out of its root (Church), would come Constantine who will gain the army and .... This is just one option / thought to work on... but you can see how many options there are or could be (which is why I am looking for some bright folks to help me).... but not to argue about whether the current interpretations are solid....

2) go through just verses 5 to 21 verses and see if we can identify a verse that is unequivocally identified to an event or person. Then work backwards within the first 21 verses and see if we can identify all the pieces of this puzzle and where they fit nicely.  However, this requires an individual who is willing to walk with me down this path and brain storm (without changing their current views, but willing to explore).  For example, if verse 21 is the little horn or papal Rome, we can then start working back to verse 5....  

I hope this helps you understand what I am attempting... there are so many very interesting options and interpretations for Daniel 11 and with God's help, we can have them...

For what it is worth and I do not want to spend time with those that feel comfortable with Post Alexander and Antiochus views, chapter 11 / 12 is the final message to Daniel and I don't believe God is going to spend anymore of His prophetic capital on a very minor actor like Antiochus or a post Alexander period (transition) to the fourth kingdom!  Greece has been addressed and now it is on to Rome (both pagan and papal).  This is where He is going to complete the 70 week prophecy and the little horn power which will take us out to His second coming....  Hope you still might want to explore, thanks, Charlie

[Charlie744]

On 2/3/2020 at 9:47 PM, Da Puppers said:

Charlie, 

I agree here with what Sister is saying about Cleopatra and (Julius) Caesar.  The branch out of her roots is/will be a future king of the south that will result in reuniting of the kingdom of the north with the kingdom of the South.   I am not sure that we will agree much beyond that.   What follows is my take on how that reunification will result in the last days attack upon Israel.   

The 1st king of the South in Dan 11:7 would equate to the king that is in power when the league of Daniel 11:23 is made with the KoN.   This KoS is the king that precedes the "6th king who is" in Rev 17.  I know not many will agree with me.   But this is my take on things. 

Daniel 11 starts out by telling us that 3 kings shall rise up in Persia, and the 4th one shall be far richer than them all,  the 1st three.   I believe that sum total of Dan 11,12 is tell us of these 3 kings,  leading up to the 4th.   Nothing in the discourse alludes to this abundantly prosperous 4th king.   He doesn't come on the scene until the abomination that results in desolation has taken place in Daniel 12.   The timing of the desolation is the same time as when Michael stands up with time, times and half time remaining.   But let us notice something found in verse 31.  In the context of this vile king,  it says that "they" shall place the abomination.  I believe that "they" refers to both the kings of the South & North. 

Verses 7 thru 22 is a set of events from the perspective of the king of the South(s) and his engagements with the king of the north.   There is only one king of the north in those verses.   But there are 3 different kings of the South.   The first one covers the bulk of the text from verse 7 to verse 19, where it says that he "shall  stumble and fall and not be found".   The 2nd one is found completely in verse 20.  Being a raiser of taxes is an important aspect to understanding the big picture.   But it is the when and why he raises taxes.   "In the glory of the kingdom" speaks to a rebuilt temple.   Just as Solomon had to raise taxes to pay for the temple in his day,  so to will there be an imposition of taxes to pay for the temple of that day.  This second king (OF THE SOUTH)  will be forced (probably by the one who was instrumental in getting the temple built)  to pay taxes to him in some sort of extortion & bribery scenario. Verses 21 and 22 give a very brief conclusionary statement to how the 3rd king of the South shall arise via flattery.  

Verse 22 defines his ultimate purpose... to overflow them with the arms of a flood.   He is probably the one referred to as the prince of the covenant.  Verses 23ff describe his ascent to power.   It begins with a "league made with him" that causes him to become strong with a small people.   This league is what,  I believe, is the substance to which causes the temple to be rebuilt.   The terms of the league,  gives him his power with this small people and gives Israel the right to build her temple.   Israel promotes his rise to power and He promotes peace between Arabs and Israelis.   He will not be a ruler of Israel.   But he will probably rule from the region of Syria,  Iraq,  and Media.  I believe that this small people will be the Kurds.   Daniel 11 initially refers to him as the king of the north.  This is evident from verse 25 where it says that he will stir up his power against the king of the South (the 1st one mentioned in verses 7 - 19)

Verses 24 to the end of the chapter parallels the events of verses 7 - 19, but from the perspective of the king of the North.   When he is in Egypt/ Libya,  he received tidings out of the north and Egypt.   This is not just in the vicinity of his home turf,  but it comes from the king of the South and possibly a couple other kings that have allied themselves to him.   He usurps the authority of the king of the South via flattery.   This is where the 3 horns of Daniel 7 are uprooted.   He declares himself the king of Babylon and proceeds to launch a surprise attack on Israel.  Not only that but 7 other kings cast their lots in with him.   Scripture says that the kingdom of the 10 horns give their kingdom unto the beast that the words of God might be fulfilled... the final 42 months desolation of Jerusalem.   

This is where Eze 38,39, Zech 12-14, Jeremiah 25, the Assyrian of Isaiah 10; & 30; et al, will find its fulfilment in Rev 17 when the Lamb defeats them.   The KoN becomes KoS and KoN.  In essence,  reuniting the Grecian and/or the Roman Empire in their attack on Israel.  Daniel 7 portrays this kingdom as having the iron teeth of Rome (sheer military power)  and the brass nails of Greece (mobility and speed).

Dan 7:19,21.  This little horn prevails against the saints until the Ancient of Days came.

Dan 7:19 KJV Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 
Dan 7:20 KJV And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
Dan 7:21 KJV I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 
Dan 7:22 KJV Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The little horn is this 3rd king to arise IN Persia, AS THE KING OF BABYLON.   What happens to him? and where does the 4th one arise? 

Dan 7:9 KJV I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Dan 7:11 KJV I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the HORN spake: I beheld even till the BEAST was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Dan 7:12 KJV As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Dan 7:24 KJV And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and ANOTHER shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse/CHANGED from the first, and HE shall subdue (THE)  three kings/(BEASTS!) Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:26  But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

The 4th king (in Persia) of Daniel 11,  is the same 4th beast of Daniel 7 (that is called ANOTHER).  He is the beast from the earth of Rev 13.  The little horn is the 3rd king to arise in Persia,  and is the beast from the sea that is the 7th head (of the beast) that suffers the mortal head wound and allpws the beast to continue for 42 months.  The 2nd king (in Persia)  is the one that John calls The 6th king,  WHO IS.  He becomes king after the last days temple is built.  He is only king for a short time before he gives the kingdom to the little horn.  The beast is the kingdom/ king of Babylon. 

Most view Dan 11 as a discourse about the Seleucid dynasty.   But that is not the case here because the Achaemenid/ Persian empire, which began with Cyrus the great in 539 BC,  ceased when Alexander the Great defeated the last Persian king,  Darius 3, in about 331 BC.  

Be Blessed 

The PuP 

First, thank you so much for all your time and effort! You certainly are well versed and knowledgeable .... I guess you must really enjoy Daniel!!!! I have just posted a short response to - I believe Sister.. and hope you might take a look at it... Don't want to sound ignorant, but I trying to take one verse or a couple of verses at a time without any assumptions  --- except that post Greece and an Antiochus is not within Daniel 11.  I have read so many of the interpretations out there and none work for me.... Daniel 11 and 12, in my mind, must speak about the events / characters that have a significant relationship with the coming Messiah, Daniels people, the little horn and what this little horn and his power will corrupt and challenge God's Word until His second coming.  The history lessons are done with... chapter 2, 7 and part of 8... His messages have been clearly moving away from the "horizontal" and quickly to the "vertical" - the spiritual warfare and not the physical conflicts among man and man's four kingdoms.. Chapter 11 and 12, in my mind, must begin in the pagan / papal Rome period since that is when the Messiah comes and also the little horn..... Essentially what I am saying is that ALL the existing interpretations I have see focus entirely on the "horizontal" - man's view of man's conflicts.  They attempt to "fit" man's events and characters the best they can to fit the verses in Daniel 11.... and to some extent, they seem to fit quite well.  But that can not be what God is meaning for us to see there  - I am more than sure He wants us to see Him, His people, the little horn who will come to power and corrupt His Word - nothing else could be more worthy or important of a message than this...  

Consequently, I am trying to find folks with excellent knowledge and thinking ability as yourself to possibly try and start off with a clean slate and see if there is an alternative to what is out there.... So, if there is an interest on your part and willing to spend a little time and consideration, I would like to suggest to anyone in this string to begin by thinking if there are other possibilities to the characters / events just for verses 5 and 6... I am now going to try and respond to other responses and hope to offer some possibilities for those who might be interested to think about...Again, thank you so much for  your time and consideration, Charlie

[Charlie744]

If you folks do not mind, can I ask two questions to try and start this process (for those who are interested in this...):

Verse 21 -- In your opinion, who is this vile person who will come by flattery?  Again, please assume a clean slate (not someone from post Alexander transition period or Antiochus)... Is this the papacy? 

Verse 5 & 6 --- (Question 1 first: Could the first few verses be a "summary" and not the beginning of a detailed account events, activities?

                            If not, could these verses be speaking about: KOS = Agrippa 1,

                            One of his princes above him = Roman prince stationed in Syria above him,

                            End of years they shall join together = Rome would merge / join together the two powers into one post the "end of years" (after the vision or crucifixion),

                           Kings daughter of the South = Berenice (daughter of Agrippa 1) who would travel to Rome in support of the Jews (but to no avail). Judah would not retain any power and essentially be swallowed up by Rome,

                            Out of her roots (Judah), one would come - could this be the beginning of the 3 revolts against Rome which would eventually result in the destruction of the second Temple and Masada, etc.

 

This is just one of the theories I would like to explore with someone and take it as far as it can go. If it falls by its own weight, fine, but we will learn much and then take another theory.....  Thanks for your consideration, Charlie

                           

                       

[Marilyn C]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2020 at 11:18 AM, Charlie744 said:

I am attempting to complete a commentary on the book of Daniel - completely new interpretations from anything that is "out there". I have completed chapters 1 -10 but I am having significant difficulty with chapter 11.

Hi Charlie,

In Daniel 11 was predicted the curse of world history involving continual warfare between the two great Empires, the legacy of Alexander the Great. The Seleucid dynasty identified as Assyria, the King of the North, and the Ptolomaic Dynasty, the King of the South, ie. Egypt including Libya.

Daniel (11: 40) is finally directed to jump two thousand years until the `Time of the end.` These two areas in the Middle East would again return to the focus of world attention. Each contending for key leadership of the Arab countries, to be recognised as the Moslem messiah.

Already we have witnessed Nasser of Egypt and Qaddafi of Libya striving for this position. God has predicted they would fail, and fail they did.

Daniel (11: 35 - 43) foretells that eventually, at the `Appointed Time` the King of the North will prevail. Herein is established beyond doubt or controversy, that the final leader of Islam, the Moslem messiah, will unmistakably appear in the area of the ancient Assyrian Empire; the King of the North. In fact his nationality is specifically confirmed as `The Assyrian` by the prophets Isaiah (10: 24 & 31: 8) and Micah (5: 5).

Ancient Assyria consisted of the present-day nations of Syria, Jordan and Iraq. Quite specifically, it is thus documented that, it is from this composite area that this leader will come. These are the three nations who will obviously consolidate in the foreseeable future as the power base for the forceful Charismatic leader of Islam. 

[Charlie744]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Charlie,

In Daniel 11 was predicted the curse of world history involving continual warfare between the two great Empires, the legacy of alexander the great. The Seleucid dynasty identified as Assyria, the King of the North, and the Ptolomaic Dynasty, the King of the South, ie. Egypt including Libya.

Daniel (11: 40) is finally directed to jump two thousand years until the `Time of the end.` These two areas in the Middle East would again return to the focus of world attention. Each contending for key leadership of the Arab countries, to be recognised as the Moslem messiah.

Already we have witnessed Nasser of Egypt and Qaddafi of Libya striving for this position. God has predicted they would fail, and fail they did.

Daniel (11: 35 - 43) foretells that eventually, at the `Appointed Time` the King of the North will prevail. Herein is established beyond doubt or controversy, that the final leader of Islam, the Moslem messiah, will unmistakably appear in the area of the ancient Assyrian Empire; the King of the North. In fact his nationality is specifically confirmed as `The Assyrian` by the prophets Isaiah (10: 24 & 31: 8) and Micah (5: 5).

Ancient Assyria consisted of the present-day nations of Syria, Jordan and Iraq. Quite specifically, it is thus documented that, it is from this composite area that this leader will come. These are the three nations who will obviously consolidate in the foreseeable future as the power base for the forceful Charismatic leader of Islam. 

Marilyn, once again, I would like to thank you very much for taking the time and effort to respond..... I would kindly ask you to read my responses to the previous emails within this group / topic.  Essentially, I do not believe the current interpretations are ........ God has already spent His prophetic capital on the first three kingdoms. By this chapter (11) He is not interested in predicting man's battles or conflicts with each other - been there, done that especially in chapter 2 - man will always kill and destroy their fellow man because chapter 2 is man living without God.  As we move forward in Daniel we see His emphasis is shifting from horizontal to vertical, from man's wars and conflicts to the more important spiritual battle (Satan and God). He specifically identifies four kingdoms - and the last two are Greece to Rome (both pagan and papal). He is not going to spend His important verses on some unimportant transitional group (s). The final kingdom will include His coming Messiah, the important issue of what will happen to Daniel's people (His people the Jews), the completion of the 70 weeks prophecy of chapter 9, and of course, the most important conflict being the coming of the little horn (papacy), and all his corruption and murderous acts against His people (all true Christians) until the end of times.  In chapter 7, we have a list of four kingdoms, while in chapter 8 we have only three - the last being Alexander. There is a purposeful shift / emphasis from kingdom to king - because the final king of the fourth kingdom can only be Jesus Himself. At this will only take place at His second coming.  Everyone between Alexander and His second coming will not be a king but a power against Him - principally the "little horn".  Consequently, chapter 11 verse 4 takes out right out of the third kingdom and king - Greece and Alexander, respectively. Not too sure about this but there seems to be a 400 year or so period before the Messiah where there really is no mention or activity of the Jews - no more prophets, etc. There is silence from a Jewish writings / prophets, warnings, messages, etc. The Tanakh has been finished and complete. The next event is the coming of the Messiah and this also will correspond with Daniel. From verse 4 to 5 is the same symbolic period of no mention or activity - it has no importance to God's Plan of Salvation - just a mindless, warring period between the final two kingdoms. So, verse 5 should begin within the pagan / papal fourth kingdom. My problem is to identify what and who are the characters and events in this verse... There are more than  a few options / possible characters / events depending on exactly when verse 5 starts: time of crucifixion with Herod as KOS or his son Agrippa 1, is the daughter of the KOS berenice (daughter of Agrippa 1) or is that Judah / Israel. Does verse 5 start at the time of Constantine and where the agreement is when he will agree with the northern barbarians to accept Christianity (in name only), or so on... This is why I am seeking some smart, learned folks... but I do NOT want to try and change peoples views on Daniel 11 - I want to ask them, if they are willing, to first, accept there is no current interpretations out there and let's take one verse or two at a time and discuss some possible alternatives. I mentioned in my first email that I have completed the first 10 chapters, and believe me, they look nothing like the interpretations out there. This does not mean mine are correct.......

Since you obviously have tremendous knowledge regarding Daniel, would you mind taking a little time going down my rabbit hole - just with the first two verses -5 and 6?  - but accepting that this must refer to "a " period within the pagan / papal Rome kingdom.  Thank you very much and I hope you might be willing and interested  - you never know what might come from this.... Charlie

[Dennis1209]

I'll withhold my thoughts, other than to say...

We are in a unique position, never before seen in history; the alignment, treaties and alliances between the nations described in the Bible. Never before has Russia been involved in the middle-east and making their presence known and felt. The recent changes of Turkey's hostility toward Israel, Saudi Arabia's [Sheba & Dedan] making nice and restoring relationships with Israel. The rapid changes occurring in Libya, Sudan and Ethiopia. Not to mention the U.S. recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's eternal capitol and moving our embassy there.

With each passing day, we're seeing that dark glass clearing up a bit. We see the role of the United Nations and what they're doing and not doing shaping things up. I suspect we will not be having this conversation not too many years into the future. 

In the mean time; not even the best prophecy scholars can keep up with and track all the changes, alignments and prophetically significant events that are occurring daily. We are blessed and living in amazing times! I'm looking forward to our blessed hope. 

[Marilyn C]

32 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Marilyn, once again, I would like to thank you very much for taking the time and effort to respond

The final kingdom will include His coming Messiah, the important issue of what will happen to Daniel's people (His people the Jews), the completion of the 70 weeks prophecy of chapter 9, and of course, the most important conflict being the coming of the little horn (papacy), and all his corruption and murderous acts against His people (all true Christians) until the end of times. 

 

Since you obviously have tremendous knowledge regarding Daniel, would you mind taking a little time going down my rabbit hole - just with the first two verses -5 and 6?  - but accepting that this must refer to "a " period within the pagan / papal Rome kingdom.  Thank you very much and I hope you might be willing and interested  - you never know what might come from this.... Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Note that the papacy is a religion and as such is done away with. (Rev. 17: 16) The `little horn` is a Political power.

Dan. 11: 5 & 6 is history. Note, King of the North and King of the South, refers to the rulers of those areas designated as divided up after Alexander.

[Charlie744]

26 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

I'll withhold my thoughts, other than to say...

We are in a unique position, never before seen in history; the alignment, treaties and alliances between the nations described in the Bible. Never before has Russia been involved in the middle-east and making their presence known and felt. The recent changes of Turkey's hostility toward Israel, Saudi Arabia's [Sheba & Dedan] making nice and restoring relationships with Israel. The rapid changes occurring in Libya, Sudan and Ethiopia. Not to mention the U.S. recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's eternal capitol and moving our embassy there.

With each passing day, we're seeing that dark glass clearing up a bit. We see the role of the United Nations and what they're doing and not doing shaping things up. I suspect we will not be having this conversation not too many years into the future. 

In the mean time; not even the best prophecy scholars can keep up with and track all the changes, alignments and prophetically significant events that are occurring daily. We are blessed and living in amazing times! I'm looking forward to our blessed hope. 

Dennis, very nice to hear from you again! I appreciate any comments you may have. May I take a similar approach with you that I have recently with Marilyn (assuming she has interest)?  Can you tell me your opinion of who is identified in verse 21?  Also, please assume this individual is someone coming after 1 AD.... Thanks again, Charlie

[Charlie744]

21 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Charlie,

Note that the papacy is a religion and as such is done away with. (Rev. 17: 16) The `little horn` is a Political power.

Dan. 11: 5 & 6 is history. Note, King of the North and King of the South, refers to the rulers of those areas designated as divided up after Alexander.

Thanks Marilyn, but you are able and willing to give me the interpretations that are currently "out there". I have mentioned that I am attempting to brain storm  - assuming verse 5 begins in the pagan /papal Roman period / kingdom... I have already read the many interpretations "out there" - they don't work for me and this is why I am asking for those who would like to theorize and help me with a different / new interpretation that is more vertical than horizontal ..... Which is why I asked if you might be willing to give me your thoughts on 5 and 6 without any reference to any existing interpretations out there and where verse 5 starts with pagan /papal Rome.... Hope this makes sense!  Thanks, Charlie

[Marilyn C]

28 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thanks Marilyn, but you are able and willing to give me the interpretations that are currently "out there". I have mentioned that I am attempting to brain storm  - assuming verse 5 begins in the pagan /papal Roman period / kingdom... I have already read the many interpretations "out there" - they don't work for me and this is why I am asking for those who would like to theorize and help me with a different / new interpretation that is more vertical than horizontal ..... Which is why I asked if you might be willing to give me your thoughts on 5 and 6 without any reference to any existing interpretations out there and where verse 5 starts with pagan /papal Rome.... Hope this makes sense!  Thanks, Charlie

Hi Charlie,

If you read again what I wrote concerning Islam, you`ll see that it is not what has been generally taught. The Revived Roman Empire has been the general thought. however I was taught differently as far back as the `60`s, when the Arabs were mainly just tribes in tents. And now look at their rise. They will be a power to be reckoned with when their leader `messiah,` arises, soon.

As to Dan. 11: 21 that is the beginning of the rise of the `little horn` the A/C, the Islamic leader.