Daniel 11

[Revelation Man]

11 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Once again, let us look at look at 2 Thessalonians 2 in context and see what that says.  Once again, I am quoting from the ESV:

3Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.

In verse three, we see that the rebellion is going to come with the first half of the tribulation and then the antichrist will be revealed.  Note that this verse says that there will be a rebellion in the first half of the tribulation.  A time of rebellion is not a time of peace, so this passage disagrees with the very scenario you are painting for the start of the tribulation.  We now get to the specific portion of scripture that I highlighted and is typically interpreted to say that the church is what is doing the restraining.  The first problems with this interpretation is that the Church is never referred to as masculine.  The Church is the bride of Christ, she is female, not male.  The second problem with this interpretation is that the Church does not restrain Satan.  Instead we call on the name of Jesus and depend on the Holy Spirit to restrain Satan.  This passage is saying that the Holy Spirit will leave at the midpoint of the Tribulation, giving Satan and the antichrist free reign over the Earth and all of the people living on it.  As members of the Church, we need to be aware of what is going to happen and prepare ourselves for this so that we will be able to endure until the end and be saved (Matthew 24:13).

This passage does not imply that the Church is going to be raptured at the beginning of the Tribulation.

My Blog on this explains my position !!

Is the Falling Away a false teaching ? 

I have evolved with much study on this. I used to argue to all that there had to be this great Falling Away also. All because of this one passage. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I do agree that the world gets far more evil towards the end {now}, as foretold in Romans chapter 1, and as Peter said, there will be scoffers in the last days etc. etc. But I do not think the true Church can "Fall Away", either you are of Christ/God or you are not, and will get left behind by the Bridegroom. Anyway, here is my understanding of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

“Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction…” – 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (NASB) This verse is used by many and they say it implies a "Falling Away" from the faith. But a guy named Tommy Ice has shed some exceptional light on this passage.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument Mr. Ice presented that was most convicting was his revelation that the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.”

They were as follows:

1.The Wycliffe Bible (1384)

2.The Tyndale Bible (1526)

3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)

4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)

5. The Great Bible (1540)

6. The Beeches Bible (1576)

7. The Geneva Bible (1608)

Mr. Ice also noted that the Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500's — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.” The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.

One other point Mr. Ice made that I think is significant is that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. The significance of this is emphasized by Daniel Davey in a thesis he wrote for the Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary:

Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.

In light of this grammatical point, Tommy observed that “the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernible notion.” And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].” This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”

And what it is that restrains evil in the world today? The Holy Spirit working through the Church. I think when the Church Departs, the Anti-Christ will be free to come to power.

I do not think this has anything to do with a Falling Away from the faith per se. It is the Church Departing before the Anti-Christ is brought forth. The King James Bible changed the known understanding that has been around for since Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in the first century AD.

[John n Claudia]

@Revelation Man, It seems that we are finally getting to the root of the confusion here.  This is also the misconception that I found most difficult to abandon.  After all, Revelation 8:6 comes immediately after Revelation 8:5, so it certainly seems obvious that the event described in Revelation 8:6 - 7, the first trumpet, would happen immediately after the event described in Revelation 8:1 - 5, the seventh seal.  I could not give up the belief that the seals, trumpets and bowls formed a single chronological sequence of events until I realized that the transition from the seals to the trumpets was the same as the transition between the trumpets and the woman clothed in the sun.  Since the woman clothed in the sun was obviously a different vision from the trumpets, this allowed me to accept the possibility that the seals and trumpets might also be two different visions.  After I accepted this possibility, there was obviously a lot more study that was required to understand how the multiple visions in Revelation fit together.  It was during this process that the Lord showed me the five different times the rapture is shown in Revelation as well as the seven different times that the second coming of Jesus and the defeat of Israel's enemies is pictured.

I know that it is difficult to accept that the first trumpet does not come after the seventh seal because of how long I had to struggle with this.  If the only reason you believe the Seals and trumpets are consecutive is because the transition between them comes in the middle of a man-made chapter, I pray that you take a closer look at this belief.  After I did this, I reexamined all of Revelation, trying to place the events of the seals, trumpets and bowls into a single timeline while allowing but not requiring the events to overlap.  I did this because I figured that if the events did form a single sequence, this would become obvious as I was creating the timeline and I would be able to go back to my belief in a pre-trib rapture and the tribulation starting with a time of peace.  What happened instead was that the events of the series intertwined in a way that gave much more insight into what would happen during the Tribulation.  For example, I was able to understand that the people who have the seal of God on their forehead and are protected from the locusts of the fifth trumpet in Rev 9:4 are the Church and are not the 144,000 Jews who received the seal of God between the sixth and seventh trumpet in Revelation 7:4.

I urge you to do the same study I did, allow the seals, trumpets and bowls to overlap and allowing the rapture to fall wherever it falls within each sequence individually.  I would be amazed if the Holy Spirit does not give you the same insight that He gave to me.

[Revelation Man]

12 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Please do not make claims without scripture to back you up and also be careful with the conclusions you draw.  The Jews have repented many times in the past.  Repenting from your sins is not the same thing as accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior, in the case of the Jews, from believing that the Jesus who walked the Earth 2000 years ago really is the promised Messiah.  Where does the Bible say that the Jews will accept Jesus as the predicted Messiah before Jesus returns?

When Daniel talks about the number of days in Daniel chapter 12, we see:

11And from the time that the regular burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days. 12Blessed is he who waits and arrives at the 1,335 days.

The 1290 days listed here tells us that the abomination will occur 1290 days before Jesus returns.  This is also 30 days before the midpoint of the Tribulation when Satan will be thrown from the air to the ground and the Great Tribulation starts.  This is also the time when the Jews flee Jerusalem.  As I mentioned above, there is a difference between repentance and acceptance of Jesus as Messiah, just because the Jews repent of their sins at this time, this does not mean that they have accepted Jesus who will not return to Earth and proving to them that He is the Messiah for another 3.5 years.  If I understand your comment about the 1335 days, you are saying that 45 days before the abomination the two witnesses will appear.  Once again, we disagree on when they will appear and I am also pretty sure that we disagree on who the two witnesses are.  Rather than arbitrarily putting this date on the appearance of the two witnesses, I interpret this passage according to the common English meaning of the words.

Suppose I make the statement: After November 30, I will visit you in 20 days.  I am really looking forward to day 25.

The interpretation of this is very straightforward.  I will get to your place on December 20 and am really looking forward to celebrating Christmas with you.  It does not mean that I am going to be doing something on November 25th, five days before November 30'th.

This is an exact parallel with what Daniel says in chapter 12.  Verse 11 gives a starting point and tells us that after the abomination, there will be 1290 days and then Jesus will return.  It then tells us that anyone who manages to make it through the next 45 days will be blessed.  This of course begs the question of what is going to happen during those 45 days.  If we think about this, we know that after Jesus returns, He needs to defeat all of the enemies of the Jews, reunite all twelve tribes and set up the Millennial Kingdom.  This passage is telling us that it is going to take Jesus 45 days to accomplish all of this.  People who make it to day 1335 will be blessed because they made it through the 45 days with the 70 pound hailstones, the kingdom has been set up and Satan has been locked in the abyss.

OK, for starters, before I get into Daniel ch. 12, why would you think the Jews could just be RESCUED by Jesus without accepting him BY FAITH before hand ? This is the cornerstone of our Salvation man !! All Jews AND Gentiles are one and the same in that we must all come to God by FAITH ALONE. Abraham BELIEVED God {in the promise of the coming SEED} and it was accounted unto him as Righteousness, we BELIEVE on Jesus and thus we are saved, to even insinuate the Jews are saved by Jesus just because they are Jews is wrongheaded brother. Zechariah 13:8-9 tells is 1/3 REPENT and are saved, and that 2/3 refuse to REPENT and thus will be wiped out. NOTICE, this is BEFORE the Zechariah 14:1-2 where the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem and enslaves the Jews, thus the 1/3 who REPENT do so BEFORE the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, which happens at the 1260 Event which is the DOTL. I have my timing down perfect brother. Its a revelation from God, I told you I don't just guess. Now as per Daniel ch. 12, I don't think you can get anything I am speaking about unless I go over tat first in detail, you have a shot, maybe, because you at least understand the AoD is 1290 days from the Second Coming, most people don't even understand that. So let me run down what the 1260, 1290 and 1335 means.

In Daniel 12:6 we see that an Angel asks Jesus {Man in Linen} HOW LONG shall it be until these Wonders End ? Then in Dan. 12:7 Jesus tells Daniel.

Dan. 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

So Jesus tells Daniel, from the time that the holy people/Jews are Conquered in the end times until THESE WONDERS END, there will be a time, times and half {1260 days} and we know that means 3.5 years or 1260 days, Rev. 12 gives us BOTH a time, times and half and 1260 days to show us that the woman. which is Israel, will Flee from the Dragon VIA the Anti-Christ TYRANT/Beast for 1260 days exactly. Now it gets interesting !!

What does Daniel ask next ? He asks the EXACT SAME QUESTION the Angel asked !! REMEMBER THAT !! 

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

So why would Jesus give us any DIFFERENT TYPE ANSWER ? He wouldn't, each number that Jesus gives us is a NUMBER OF DAYS from a Specific Event until THESE WONDERS END, which means the Second Coming of Jesus ends these wonders !! So now lets look at what Jesus says to Daniel.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away {Jesus is TAKEN AWAY}, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up{Image of the Beast}, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days [Until the Second Coming ENDS THESE WONDERS].

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days {Two-witnesses show up as a BLESSING}.

So, all of these NUMBERS are the same, they are all answering ONE QUESTION, How Long till these Wonders End !! So the Jews are Conquered at the First Seal which starts the Day of the Lord God's Wrath which happens on day 1261 which leaves 1260 days until THESE WONDERS END at the Second Coming. The 1290 happens 30 days BEFORE the 1260 however, and its not an event that the Anti-Christ is or can be a part of. The False Prophet a Jewish High Priest is the guilty party for this event, he STOPS the Jews from Worshiping Jesus Christ in the Temple, maybe even in all of Jerusalem. Why would ANYONE think Jesus in Daniel ch. 12 is speaking about a PROFANE SACRIFICE being stopped !!! He would not, that is a misunderstanding by men. Hes speaking about this evil False Prophet STOPPING THE SACRIFICE...........Which is Jesus Christ, from being worshiped, and then  placing an Image of the Beast {European President/King} in the Temple which defiles the Temple. Now of Israel was Sacrificing Animals in the Temple, the Temple would have already been defiled. Jesus is being worshiped by the 1/3 who REPENTED before the DOTL {1260 Event}. This is how the Jews know to Flee Judea, they have ALREADY REPENTED, else they would not know to Flee Judea would they ? But they now understand Matt. 24 and the Two-witnesses teach them also what they must do when the see the AoD. So the Jews have a SIGN that gives them 30 days to Flee Judea !! So how is it that the Jews have already REPENTED before the AoD when they know they should Flee Judea ? The Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the Beast shows up and BEFORE the Day of the Lord and Malachi 4:5-6 PROVES THIS as does the timing of the Beasts death vs. the Two-witnesses deaths.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The DAY OF THE LORD starts on Day 1261, leaving 1260 days or 3.5 years of Gods Wrath. The Two-witnesses show up BEFORE the Day of the Lord {1260} and thus they turn the Jews back unto God BEFORE the Day of the Lord, and thus the 1335 BLESSING is the Two-witnesses, that is the greatest blessing the Jews can have is to turn back unto God !! Does this fit with the Timelines ? Yes it does. The Two-witnesses AND the Beast/Anti-Christ both have earthly ordained offices of 1260 days on earth {this is why God foes this, so we can JUXTAPOSE them against each other} and since the Two-witnesses DIE at the 2nd Woe/6th Trump that means they DIE BEFORE the Beast who DIES at the 7th Vial, thus they HAVE TO SHOW UP BEFORE the Anti-Christ becomes the Beast on day 1261 {holy peoples are Conquered and there is 1260 days left until Jesus RETURNS} so if they show up BEFORE the Beast which shows up at the 1260, and the 1290 is the AoD by the False Prophet, and the Jews ALREADY KNOW to Flee Judea at the 1290, then the Jews must repent at the BLESSING of the 1335, which is 1335 days until THESE WONDERS END just like the other two numbers !! Meaning the Two-witnesses show up at the 1335, which is 1335 days until the Second Coming. 

What you do, is YOU SWITCH the 1335 to being something entirely different, most people try to switch both the 1290 and 1335. The Numbers are all the EXACT SAME THING, Gods is perfect in his Symbolism. My knowledge on this even scares me....NOT REALLY....But I understand that I understand what few others understand.

[Revelation Man]

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Of course John the Baptist and Elijah were different people.  You asked a question about Biblical prophecy and I told you what Jesus said and how Jesus viewed John the Baptist and Elijah as having the same message for the Jews.  It also points out that the Old Testament prophet Elijah is not going to be one of the two witnesses any more than he was the same person as John the Baptist.

 

Yes he will, that is why him and Moses was at the Transfiguration. See Malachi 4:5-6.

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

It was the head of the beast that received a mortal wound, not the beast itself.  Since the head received the wound, it must be the head that gets healed.

 

And THE BEAST has a Body, if a man has 2 heads its still one person. Its Satan Kingdom on earth. Once the Head was wounded it was no more until another Head came up to Heal the Wound of the Beast. Its Metaphoric anyway. There is no 7 Headed Beast....its SEVEN Kingdoms man. Once the 6th Kingdom was Defeated and there was no Israel there could be NO BEAST. Try as you might to install Islam, its just not factual brother.

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

The antichrist is not going to heal the beast system.  In fact, the antichrist is not even going to part of the revived empire until after it is created.  We know this because he is the little horn that uproots three of the original ten horns.

 

Well YEA....Once He Conquers Israel they are BEASTED OVER AGAIN after 2000 years. The 10 doesn't even have to be 10, the number 10 can mean COMPLETENESS so it might be 27 nations that represents 10 and the 3 might thus be 9 who are uprooted. The HEALING of the Beast means it BECOMES a Beast over Israel AND the Mediterranean Sea Region again after not being over Israel for 2000 years.

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

with regard to the fourth beast, Daniel mentions that it is different from the other three beasts.

Misinterpretation almost everyone makes........Dan. 7:3 already told us ALL THE BEASTS WERE DIFFERENT !! SO ? You see what you miss is really a HUGE CLUE, the Beast that arises Little Horn is DIFFERENT from the FIRST.........Not the first 3, we already knew that, but from the First Beast that was the Fourth Beast !! The First Fourth Beast Kingdom was a series of Kings.........this Little Horn is a MAN !! Not a Kingdom per se, he will be cast STRAIGHT INTO Hell !! Just like Dan. 7:11 and Rev, 19:20 says !! That's the DIFFERENCE !! If it was saying he was DIFFERENT from the other Beasts it WOULD NOT have just stated hes different from the FIRST BEAST would it ? It would have stated he was different from ALL THE BEASTS like verse 3 says, but its speaking about the TWO Fourth Beast or European...........Beasts, the Roman Empire was a series of Kings the LAST BEAST HEAD will be ONE MAN.

Dan. 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

As an Old Testament prophet, Daniel only saw the history of the Jewish people.  Since the original Ottoman Empire did not overlap with the Jewish nation, Daniel was not told about them.  Instead, Daniel saw the Roman Empire and then the vision went on to the empire of the antichrist.  This means that we need to combine the visions of John and Daniel to understand what is really going on here.  Since the empire of the antichrist is the rebirth of the Ottoman Empire, the fourth beast that Daniel saw was a combination of the Roman and Ottoman Empire (the sixth and seventh head of John's beast) and that is what made it different from the other three beasts.

The Ottoman Empire means nothing, Israel was as Dead Men's Bones, just because you are invested in that idea is not God's fault brother. You are going down a rabbit hole on this.

13 hours ago, John n Claudia said:

Thank you for the gracious vote of confidence in my salvation.  I pray that both of us will endure until the end so that we will be saved and be able to rejoice together when we meet in Heaven .

Well, Christ is about our Salvation. IMHO, way too many people are into Prophecy and trying to add it all together. I asked God 5 or 6 years ago why the Church was so confused with so many different understandings and I got this "You guys already know it all Ron" and that is when I backpedaled and started seeking God's face on everything and put off all of the things men have taught. God wants to show us, but He can't if our ideas are in the way. 

God Bless.
 

[John n Claudia]

13 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi John,

You may be interested in this photo. The Islamic leader with Trump is the host leader of the G20 for this year. He is Saudi Arabia`s crown prince Mohammed bin Salman.

Who looks happy?

Interesting.  There are a lot of threads that the Lord is bringing together in these last days that will all converge.  On a completely unrelated note, the reason I believe Jesus will return soon is that He told us that everyone will see Him when he comes.  In the last couple of years interest in space exploration has exploded and once there is a permanent settlement on either the Moon or Mars, there will be at least one person who will not be around to see Him when he comes back.  Given this, all we have to do is look at NASA's published timeline for the Artemis program and count backwards.  Of course, government programs always have delays and I could be completely wrong about this.  We won't know the timeline for sure until we see the abomination.

[Charlie744]

8 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

No problem, I had a Heart Attack in 2016/found out I had Diabetes and in November I has my prostrate taken out so I have my bad days. No ones fault, mostly mine when I don't eat properly, I get tired and have brain fogs.

The 2300 days is not 2300 days, the translation is wrong, its 2300 Evening and Morning Sacrifices which means its 1150 days. 

Well, understanding it and understanding the TIMELINE is two different things. I gave everyone the timeline. Verse 5 is Alexander the Great, so it can't be the Pagan Roman Period. So all I can do is give you the facts, I can't make the facts fit your POV.

The last chapter is all about the End Times, chapter 11:36-45 is also about the End Times. Dan. 11:21-33-maybe 34 is about Antiochus Epiphanes.

Yes, you are never going to be able to put it together by using the Wrong timeline.

I haven't looked at it, but John the Baptist was sent.

Well I gave them to you, but if you are looking at a Roman angle at that time you are out of step.

Well we can't help you find that which does not exist. 

God Bless.....you are looking for a phantom I am afraid.

RM, thank you very much for the response and I am sincerely sorry to learn of your medical issues.. I hope you feel better, in the short run, and I will certainly  pray for you in the long term... I am sure it is not easy to deal with them each day.

I don't believe I may be able to get some folks to participate in brain storming for a new interpretation that what is currently out there and accepted, but I will keep this post open until I have exhausted my thoughts.... 

But what is interesting is your response to the 2300 days issue and your opinion.. As mentioned, I am currently attempting to study 11  - and I have completed a first run at the first 10 chapters, so I would like to open a brand new post for the 2300 days and see what everyone believes... You certainly have a definite answer and I am sure many others may also so I want to learn ... Please respond with your typical enjoyable and knowledgeable comments. Best wishes... see you in 2300 days, Charlie