Rapture before the antichrist in Matthew 24

[OldCoot]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Only two?

What about a decree to begin the day of the Lord? That seems to fit the context of Zeph 2:1-3.

Gather yourselves, gather together, O shameful nation, before the decree takes effect and the day passes like chaff, before the burning anger of the LORD comes upon you,

before the Day of the LORD’s anger comes upon you. Seek the LORD, all you humble of the earth who carry out His justice. Seek righteousness; seek humility.

Perhaps you will be sheltered on the day of the LORD’s anger."

There is no evidence here pointing to any decree issued by the hand of man. That idea is made up. It cannot be likened to Dan 9 either as this decree is more like a fulfillment (something prescribed or owed, a statute), and quite different from the covenant in Daniel 9 which is an alliance or a treaty. The concepts of the decree, the covenant and a papyrus scroll are not similar in origin, purpose, effect or result.

"Perhaps you will be sheltered in the day of the Lord's anger"...No doubt this is the wrath of God and the Lamb as depicted in Rev 6, well into the last week, well after the A of D. Pretrib nonsense relies on the false premise the 70th week is equivalent to God's wrath. It is not.

Yep, could be the decree of the day of the Lord.   But keep in mind, the Day of the Lord it is a period, not a literal 24 hour day.  Just like Jeremiah 30:7 refers to it as the 'time of Jacob's Trouble' and David talks about being hidden in the Lord's tabernacle in His pavilion during the 'time of trouble', Psalms 27:5.    

And Isaiah 13 says that the birth pains are the day of the Lord.   Jeremiah 30 equates the births pains with the time of Jacob's trouble.   And Isaiah 26 mentions the gates are opened so the righteous nation may enter at or near the start of the birth pains and the resurrection and hiding of them occurs. 

Only you seem to be equating the entirety of the 70th week as literally God's wrath.   No one else seems to be.   Not me especially, as I have stated before that I believe the GT period is the last half of the 70th week.  I have stated that the entirety of the 70th week is the time of Jacob's trouble.  And it seems rather evident that any details regarding the removal are centered on happening before or at the start of Jacob's Trouble.   And since Zephaniah does not state specifically what the decree is, your guess is no better than anyone elses.

Even if I am in error that the removal occurs before the 70th week starts, there is little doubt that the removal will occur before the AOD of the middle of the 70th week.  So the only candidates are pre 70th and mid 70th.   Nothing else works.  And since Paul says the departure / taken out of the  way happens before the candidate for the AC arrives, the pretty much narrows it to pre 70th.

And you do not know if the confirmation of a covenant is a treaty per se.   Many have assumed it is.  But it also could be a confirmation of the Abrahamic covenant regarding the land that has been in place for 4000 years.   And the 'land' seems to always be the hot button when it comes to Israel and its neighbors, or the world for that matter.     So there is no technical need for an new alliance or treaty to be in place.    Just an individual that has enough power to enforce the idea that the land does indeed belong to Israel and offer a feeling of peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:3).   Then  later comes along and breaks his word.  And He would have to be the one who has consolidated power and is the candidate for the AC to pull it off.  And therefore he would be revealed.  

Especially since there is a specific trigger that starts the 70th week.  And for that to happen, the individual that fulfills the candidacy of the AC has to be on the scene to confirm the covenant which is the trigger.    And Paul is quite clear that the departure / taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2) occurs first, then this individual will be revealed.  

And there is Revelation 4/5 that the door (gate) of heaven is opened just like Isaiah 26:2 and the 24 Elders who are kings and priests, redeemed of all tongues, nations, tribes, etc.   Again Peter calls us a Royal Priesthood and a Holy Nation (righteous nation per Isaiah 26).   And it is an equivalence with 1 Chronicles 24 when David grouped the priests into 24 divisions all named by the elders of each division.   24 Elders also.     And the 24 elders of the redeemed are there before the scroll is handed Yeshua and the first seal is broken.

Edited February 15, 2020 by OldCoot

[Alive]

9 hours ago, OldCoot said:

Pre 7.    Because Zephaniah 2 amplifies Isaiah 26 in saying that it will happen 'before the decree is issued'.   The only decree of that time that is of unique significance is the affirmation of the covenant by the AC in Daniel 9:27.

Also, 2 Thessalonians 2.    The context of the passage is the day of the Lord and our gathering unto Him.   And it would seem that these folks were upset by a fake letter that they were already in the day of the Lord.  Well, to be upset, they must have felt they missed something.   Paul had to remind them that 'that day' would not happen unless the departure happens first, then the son of perdition be revealed.    He amplified that a few verses later saying that the one who restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way, then the man of sin will be revealed.  The only thing that restrains evil is the Holy Spirit who indwells and seals the believers.   If He is 'taken out of the way' then by extension the vessels He resides in will be taken out of the way.

In both OT and NT references, it seems clear that the righteous are being taken out of the way and hidden before the decree is issued and man of sin is revealed.

Likewise, Peter refers to us as a Holy Nation and Royal Priesthood.    Back to Isaiah 26 removal chapter, and the gates are being opened early on in the chapter for the righteous nation.   Later is the same chapter, the dead and living righteous are 'hidden' in their chambers (hidden just like Zephaniah 2 says the righteous are hidden), which comports with John 14 where Yeshua is preparing rooms / chambers for us in the Father's house.   

In Revelation 4, a gate is standing open in heaven (see Isaiah 26:2).... after the 'these things' of of the churches which the letters are formally addressed to existing churches, following the outline of Revelation laid down by Yeshua in Revelation 1:19.... the things which have been, the things which are, and those things that will come after those.  And when the scroll is handed to Yeshua later, the 24 Elders call themselves Kings and Priests, redeemed of every tongue, tribe, nation, etc in Revelation 5.   1 Peter 2:9, Pete says that we are a royal priesthood.  That is equivalent to kings / priests.   And there is precedent for the 24 in 1 Chronicles 24 where David divided the entire priesthood into 24 divisions.   Each group / division named after its priestly elder... 24 Elders.    The 24 Elders which are kings and priests are standing in Heaven before the scroll is handed to Yeshua and the first seal is cracked open in Revelation 6.

 

Thank you @OldCoot I appreciate that.

[Last Daze]

14 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Regardless on our hermeneutic views on non-essentials, doesn't make us any more or less Christian, or more or less brothers and sisters in Christ. There should be no divisions among us.

True, but, people only prepare for what they expect.  Don't let the pretrib lullaby sing you to sleep.  Jesus said stay awake.

Last trumpet on the last day.  Nothing "pre" about it.  Best to be prepared for the great tribulation.

[Alive]

Is. 26:19   Your ^adead will live;

¹Their corpses will rise.

You who lie in the dust, ^bawake and shout for joy,

For your dew is as the dew of the ²dawn,

And the earth will ³give birth to the ⁴departed spirits.

 

Is. 26:20    Come, my people, ^aenter into your rooms

And close your doors behind you;

Hide for a little ^1bwhile

Until ^cindignation ²runs its course.

²¹  For behold, the LORD is about to ^acome out from His place

To ^bpunish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, Last Daze said:

True, but, people only prepare for what they expect.  Don't let the pretrib lullaby sing you to sleep.  Jesus said stay awake.

Last trumpet on the last day.  Nothing "pre" about it.  Best to be prepared for the great tribulation.

I guess that would lead to the question... how are we to prepare if the pre 70th week removal is not true?   

Let's see, those days will be like none that have even preceded them, and there will never again be a time that will compare to it.   That would include all of human history and all the catastrophes and calamities that have happened.     Also, Yeshua said that folks would literally go into cardiac arrest over what will be coming upon the earth.  And given the technology that is already upon us, some idea of hiding out and being a doomsday prepper is not going to be a viable option either. 

Also, what would be any other preparation that trusting in the redemption of Messiah, which is a condition to be a redeemed believer to begin with?

I don't see a pre 70th week removal as being a lullaby, but in fact the blessed hope that is promised to the righteous.  The very thing that Paul had to remind the Thessalonians of because they had been duped that they were in the Day of the Lord already.   

I do find it captivating that those who don't like the idea seem compelled to belittle and demean those who do by calling it a lullaby and other demeaning terms.    Just like I am captivated that the early removal of the righteous is the only position that Satan has expelled so much time and energy to explain away.     Yep, many New Age and UFO writers have gone to great lengths to describe how there will be a removal of the negative elements of humanity so that then the earth can move into a higher dimensional state.   Many of those writers even use Pauline style terminology..... that it will happen in the 'twinkling of an eye'.   Satan has done a pretty fair job of explaining the early removal away.

It seems with so many so vehemently opposed to a early removal idea, both secular and religious, maybe it isn't all that far fetched after all.   Kinda reminds me of a variation of a quote in Hamlet by good 'ol Bill Shakespeare, which has come to be commonly phrased as...   "me thinks ye doest protest too much".     

Edited February 15, 2020 by OldCoot

[Alive]

12 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I guess that would lead to the question... how are we to prepare if the pre 70th week removal is not true?   

Let's see, those days will be like none that have even preceded them, and there will never again be a time that will compare to it.   That would include all of human history and all the catastrophes and calamities that have happened.     Also, Yeshua said that folks would literally go into cardiac arrest over what will be coming upon the earth.  And given the technology that is already upon us, some idea of hiding out and being a doomsday prepper is not going to make it either. 

Also, what would be any other preparation that trusting in the redemption of Messiah, which is a condition to be a redeemed believer to begin with?

I don't see a pre 70th week removal as being a lullaby, but in fact the blessed hope that is promised to the righteous.  The very thing that Paul had to remind the Thessalonians of because they had been duped that they were in the Day of the Lord already.   

I do find it captivating that those who don't like the idea seem compelled to belittle and demean those who do by calling it a lullaby and other demeaning terms.    Just like I am captivated that the early removal of the righteous is the only position that Satan has expelled so much time and energy to dismiss.     Yep, many New Age and UFO writers have gone to great lengths to describe how there will be a removal of the negative elements of humanity so that then the earth can move into a higher dimensional state.   Many of those writers even use Pauline style terminology..... that it will happen in the 'twinkling of an eye'.  

It seems with so many so vehemently opposed to a early removal idea, both secular and religious, maybe it isn't all that far fetched after all.   Kinda reminds me of a variation of a quote in Hamlet by good 'ol Bill Shakespeare, which has come to be commonly phrased as...   "me thinks ye doest protest too much".     

Its interesting that I had the same thought when 'being prepared' was mentioned.

The Father did the 'preparing' for me on that day that He converted me.

[OldCoot]

I would add, Yeshua did not tell us to "stay awake" and keep an eye out for the antichrist and all the associated stuff.  He told us to stay awake for we do not know when our greater redemption comes.   There is no scripture that admonishes the redeemed to stay alert for the coming of the antichrist, the time of Jacob's trouble, etc.   It only admonishes us to stay alert for our gathering to Messiah.   To not get all caught up in the affairs of this life that we take our focus off of Him.   

Luke 21:28 (NKJV) Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."

Notice how it says when all the calamities previously described begin to happen, not while or when they are happening.  Just like many of the Prophets wrote that at the beginning of the birth pains, the righteous dead would be raised and along with the living righteous would be hidden from that time.

[Last Daze]

54 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

I guess that would lead to the question... how are we to prepare if the pre 70th week removal is not true?

Pretty simple, really.

• “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.  And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.  Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.  The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”  Matthew 7:24-27

[OldCoot]

46 minutes ago, Last Daze said:

Pretty simple, really.

• “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.  And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.  Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.  The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”  Matthew 7:24-27

True enough.  But what house is one attempting to build and on what rock?  Is one counting on their efforts?   The statement by Yeshua is what is commonly known as an analogy, not a literalism.    Yeshua is the rock.  I don't need to build anything.  I pitch my tent with Yeshua and am protected by Him.  

Boy, how I love the simplicity of the Gospel.  Nothing I can do nor am I required to do but simply trust and believe. 

And this is even more a wonderful thing now that I was diagnosed with advanced Esophageal Cancer yesterday by my doctor.  The Lord is to be praised in all things!

Edited February 15, 2020 by OldCoot

[JoeMo]

I agree with Old Coot.  The best way to prepare for the end of this age is to always be ready for Jesus to come. .Pre-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath rapture; the truth is that the righteous will be taken to heaven prior to the end of the age. I tend to believe it will happen immediately before the seven last plagues; but that is just my opinion.  If I had my way, I would already be in the Kingdom!