The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[Revelation Man]

9 hours ago, not an echo said:

Do you see Jesus' parable in verses 32-33 as relating in any way to what He had just said in verses 29-31?

THIS Generation can only mean one thing, the Jews who see the 70th week, of course Gentiles will see it also, but we see the LAST SIGN is the Sun and Moon dark, so how can THAT GENERATION not be the Generation living in the 70th week? Thus they will indeed see the Second Coming, we wont because we will be in the Rapture.

[Revelation Man]

10 minutes ago, Alive said:

I also believe that the Feasts are prophetic and lay out history.

What can you say about the original tabernacle and how if you were to see it from the perspective of an individual approaching it from the desert. What he would see as he walked up to the entry and then continues through the outer to the inner and finally the Holy of Holies?

I have seen that somewhere, but tbh it escapes me to be honest.

[not an echo]

On 6/14/2020 at 8:16 AM, douggg said:

On 6/14/2020 at 12:05 AM, not an echo said:

Do you see Jesus' parable in verses 32-33 as relating in any way to what He had just said in verses 29-31?

Jesus is indicating what generation will see His Return.      This generation.      1948 if by strength, possibly.   1967 if by three score and ten, for certain.     Psalms 90:10.

Hello douggg,

What I am getting at concerns your interpretation that Matthew 24:30 shows both the Sign Return of Christ and His Second Coming---separated by 45 days on your chart.  It looks to me like Jesus' words concerning "all these things" in verse 33 would include the things He had just spoken of concerning the celestial phenomena of verse 29.  If verse 30 also includes His Second Coming, how does His statement, "know that it is near, even at the doors" fit?  When someone is present their return is not pending, or "near."  Seems to me that Jesus connected His present use of this parable to what He had just finished speaking about, in other words, the generation that sees "all these things" (vs. 33).

To clarify afresh my interpretation of the passage, I see Matthew 24:29-31 as an exclusive account of the rapture, and because of all the prophetic points of convergence, this occurring with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Luke's parallel account of this event (Lk. 21:25-27) reads like a paraphrase of the 6th Seal event (Rev. 6:12-17).  Interestingly, Matthew's account connects with the sealing of the 144,000 of "all the tribes" (compare 24:30 with Rev. 7:4-8, esp. vs. 4) and the rapture (compare 24:31 with I Thess. 4:16-17, II Thess. 2:2, and Rev. 7:9-17), while Luke's account connects with those left behind (compare Lk. 21:25-26 with Rev. 6:15-17).  Please don't take my mention of those left behind as suggesting that I subscribe to the common pre-trib view.  Whereas I believe the rapture will happen pre-Daniel's 70th Week, my interpretation is totally different from the popular view, as my thread, A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/) shows.  Important to note is that I see Jesus' mention of the tribulation in Matthew 24:29 as relating to what He warned His disciples of in the opening section of His discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-9), things that parallel the activity of the four horsemen, all of which has been taking place throughout the era of the Church.  This means, as I see Christ's return for the Church as being imminent, I see the opening of the 6th Seal as being imminent.  Whereas there are plenty of evidences that the Day of the Lord will commence this same day (as the 7th Seal can scripturally be opened moments or hours after the 6th Seal), I see no evidences of Daniel's 70th Week having begun until Revelation 11.  Rather, I see the removing of the Church and what happens with the sounding of the trumpets (through Rev. 10) as relating to the world's stage being reset for the fulfilling of the 70th Week.

Now douggg, I know that we don't see the same on these things, but I hope you will take another look, and I can see you making the same statement to me.  Maybe little by little things will come into sharper focus for us both.  Know this, I emphatically believe that when the dust settles from everything, we will look back and marvel at how everything dovetailed with Scripture.  And one fine day, when we are sitting at the feet of Jesus and He is explaining to us more fully about where we were mistaken, I'm going to poke you in the ribs---and I know, I know, you won't be able to hardly wait to poke me back. 

Have you heard the saying, "When it comes to the subject of the rapture, a few are so sure about their particular view, that if things turn out differently, they will be disappointed!"  I know for me, I am not yet that sure.  But I sure like looking at it.  I think it may have to do with the "Blessed..." in Revelation 1:3.  Isn't it all so very interesting?

Hadn't planned to go overboard.  Just had a little extra time this afternoon.  Have a good day...

Edited January 27, 2023 by not an echo
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[Alive]

I don't know for sure if the rapture is pre-7 years or at the halfway point.

I am waiting for a loud shout.

[not an echo]

On 6/14/2020 at 9:23 AM, Revelation Man said:

On 6/14/2020 at 12:05 AM, not an echo said:

Do you see Jesus' parable in verses 32-33 as relating in any way to what He had just said in verses 29-31?

THIS Generation can only mean one thing, the Jews who see the 70th week, of course Gentiles will see it also, but we see the LAST SIGN is the Sun and Moon dark, so how can THAT GENERATION not be the Generation living in the 70th week? Thus they will indeed see the Second Coming, we wont because we will be in the Rapture.

Hello Revelation Man,

I think basically, we may see this the same, or at least concerning the promise to the Jews as it relates to the 70th Week.  In my thinking, Jesus' statement concerning "all these things" (Matt. 24:33) would include what He had just spoken of, and especially "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (vs. 30).  As I see it, the Jews will get at least a glimpse of this event and 144,000 of "all the tribes" (vs. 30 with Rev. 7:4) will be sealed.  These will also experience the time of Daniel's 70th Week, and because of the promise connected with the parable, "this generation" can easily count on seeing the Second Coming.

An interesting little sidebar---In my years of contemplating the time of Christ's Sign Return, I have noticed something that I believe needs to be understood just a little differently.  What I am referring to is the common belief that Jesus will return invisibly at the rapture.  According to the evidence of Scripture, it needs to be understood that for those left behind who may not see Jesus, it will be because He is NOT visible instead of INvisible.  By this I mean, not visible to anyone outside of Israel's hemisphere.  What I am getting at is easily illustrated by something all of us observe regularly.

Because the earth is a sphere, the sun is not visible to everyone on the earth simultaneously.  For example, when it is noon in Israel, the sun is not visible to anyone in the United States, however, it is very visible throughout the hemisphere of which Israel is a part---and vice-versa.  So, while the sun is often not visible, it is never invisible.  Now, THE SON can be invisible if He wants to be!  Or, visible to some while at the same time invisible to others or whatever He wants!  But, a lot of what He wants or intends to do, is revealed in Scripture.  We just have to try to interpret it correctly.

Of course, at the Second Coming, "every eye shall see Him..." (Rev. 1:7).  And, God can effect this however He would like.  But, I see evidence of an interesting possibility relating to this also.  With the sounding of the first four trumpets, the "third part" is repeatedly said to be destroyed.  If this destruction connects with what is in our hemisphere (which equals 1/3 of the earth to within less than 1 percentage point), and this is taken out of the picture (or off the world's stage) for the time of Daniel's 70th Week, the only eyes left upon the earth at the time of Christ's Second Coming could easily be those in Israel's hemisphere.  Meaning...well, think about it.  Got to go, but I do have a thread relating to this entitled, The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  Interesting to think about...

Edited January 27, 2023 by not an echo
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[not an echo]

On 6/17/2020 at 3:31 PM, Alive said:

I don't know for sure if the rapture is pre-7 years or at the halfway point.

I am waiting for a loud shout.

Hey Alive (and all),

I firmly believe that we could hear that "loud shout" before I push the Submit Reply prompt

Edited January 28, 2023 by not an echo

[douggg]

23 hours ago, not an echo said:

What I am getting at concerns your interpretation that Matthew 24:30 shows both the Sign Return of Christ and His Second Coming---separated by 45 days on your chart.  It looks to me like Jesus' words concerning "all these things" in verse 33 would include the things He had just spoken of concerning the celestial phenomena of verse 29.  If verse 30 also includes His Second Coming, how does His statement, "know that it is near, even at the doors" fit?  When someone is present their return is not pending, or "near."  Seems to me that Jesus connected His present use of this parable to what He had just finished speaking about, in other words, the generation that sees "all these things" (vs. 33).

Jesus was present speaking to the disciples prior to the destruction of the temple , but his return is end times.        The "it", btw, is the end times events, which includes Jesus's return, at the end of the 7 years.

 

 

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

The "it" is the events of the end, the end times.   Matthew 24:14, then shall come the end...

 

Anyway, the diciples were living in the Mt. of Olives discourse near term and beginning of the long term future of Israel.

Jesus in Matthew 24, the Olivet discourse,  was speaking to Israel, the Jews about their near term, their long term, and their end time future.         The parable of the fig tree generation is the end times generation, when Jesus will return.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 18, 2020 by douggg

[douggg]

The first seal event of the rider on a white horse, given a crown, is the start of the seven years; and the riders thereafter are the great tribulation getting progressively worse. And them in the fifth seal are the great tribulation martyrs. And the time of the wrath of the Lamb has come in the sixth seal is Jesus about to carry out vengeance for their deaths when he returns to earth in Revelation 19:17-21.

[not an echo]

On 6/1/2020 at 12:51 PM, The Light said:

On 5/29/2020 at 6:16 PM, not an echo said:

Hey again zero turn,

As I see it, Matthew, Mark, and Luke's accounts are complimentary, each to the other, but speaking of the same things, as each pertains to the same parts of Jesus' address.  Concerning the word THEN, consider in these passages whether the meaning is at that time or after that as we might use the term in English.  Of course, the meaning of the Greek term, tote (G5119) bears upon this, as I believe you will find.

I have shown you that Luke says BEFORE ALL THESE. Luke is taking about 70 AD when he talks of what happens is Jerusalem. Matthew and Mark are talking end time Jerusalem.

Hello zero turn,

Trying to do some catching up.  My, how time flies.  In consideration of each account of Jesus' Olivet Discourse and evidences in The Revelation, I see Jesus' statement "But before all these" (Lk. 21:12) as being in reference to the "fearful sights and great signs" He had just mentioned (Lk. 21:11).  As I see it, Luke makes for us an important link between the first section of Jesus' discourse and the "signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars..." (Lk. 21:25), a link that Matthew and Mark's accounts do not show.  I see these celestial signs as occurring in conjunction with the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:29-30), at which time so many prophetic points of convergence relating to the rapture come together (e.g., Rev. 6:12-7:17, Acts 2:20, I Thess. 4:13-5:11, II Thess. 2:1).  Interesting (to me) is that whereas Matthew's account links with the sealing of the 144,000 of "all the tribes" (24:30 with Rev. 7:2-8, esp. vs. 4/"all the tribes") and the gathered Church (24:31 with II Thess. 2:1 and Rev. 7:9-17), Luke's account links with those who are left behind (21:25-27 with Rev. 6:15:17).  There's a lot interwoven here.  Just some things for you to think about while you are out there on that Cub Cadet.   

[not an echo]

On 6/1/2020 at 12:51 PM, The Light said:

Quote

Something else that I can't help but notice is that Luke (and Mark) specify where Jesus said that those who will be persecuted will be persecuted: "the synagogues" (Lk. 21:12;  Mk. 13:9).  And, who were those that were persecuted in the synagogues?  Those who were becoming Christians!  Those who were becoming a part of the Church!  So, as I see it, Jesus' warnings in the opening of His discourse were not to the orthodox Jews of the synagogues, who would be the persecutors, but to the converts to Christianity, who would be the persecuted.  We see examples of this throughout Acts (e.g., 6:8-14, 17:1-7, 22:17-20, 26:9-11).  So again, as I see it, Jesus sandwiched His discourse with some Christianity/Church era specific statements.  Can you see where I'm coming from Light?

The reason that Jesus is talking synagogues is because the Church is already in heaven in Rev 5, before the seals are opened. When Jesus comes in Matt 24, it's the same coming as the sixth seal, and Jesus is coming to rapture the Jews across the earth that have had their eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (at the pretrib rapture). Matt 24 is all about the Jews as the 70th week is all about the time of Jacobs trouble.

As for the nation of Israel, they will remain on earth (as their eyes won't be opened yet) during the wrath of God in a place of protection.

Hey Light,

Before I go out to do some mowing on my old tractor style Cub , I just ain't never (I know, I know) been able to get settled on this thing of the 24 elders representing the Church.  Now, this is the belief that I grew up with, but in time, I just got more and more unsettled with it.  I didn't mean too!  It just kinda happened as I was snooping around looking into what everyone else was a saying and as a result of my looking into all those points of convergence that I talk about, relating to the opening of the 6th Seal.  One thing led to another that led to another until I ended up back at Revelation 1:1.  Well, I haven't seen things the same since I down-loaded (in my noggin) Revelation 1:1-3, which I have come to regard as the bedrock foundation of The Revelation.  When I consider this, and how The Revelation is sandwiched in similar words (Rev. 22:6-7, 10/note esp. the "Seal not" and the "time is at hand" of vs. 10), I just can't see a 2000 year disconnect between John's receiving of The Revelation and the opening of the first seals.  In my thinking, for most any prophecy, there is the time when it will begin (a word that I believe preterists should consider a little closer) to come to pass, and the only appropriate place to begin looking for what was about to begin to take place is in the direction of the seals.  Well, we all know that there's possibilities with the first five seals, and we have the testimony of history to boot.  Concerning the 6th Seal, I find no evidence whatsoever in any kind of shape or form for it having been opened, nor the sounding of the trumpets, etc.  Sooo, I still do see Christ's return for the rapture as being imminent (I was also taught this as a young'un and STILL believe it!), but happening with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Of course, this represents a major departure from the popular pre-trib view, with which I grew up.  But, my experience has been that from this basis, a lot that I couldn't get to fit now falls into place in a big way.  So much so, that I have felt compelled to share what I have seen with others.  Really, what I share I am just putting forth for other's consideration, my little contribution if you will, to all of us being able to understand a little clearer.  It does take a lot of time though, and my grass is need'n mowing again. If I just had me a zero turn...

On 6/1/2020 at 12:51 PM, The Light said:

As for the zero turn Cub. Nothing better. I use it all the time. If I'm planting stuff or cutting trees, etc I drive it to the spot and I have a ready made lounge chair when I get tired. If my neighbor is working in his garage, I drive it over and have a ready made chair. And man does this thing cut. None of these weak blades and spindles that bend or break when you hit a tree branch. Highly recommend. Bought a big Gorilla trailer to pull behind that is huge. Almost too big. 1500 lb capacity.

You know, about the only thing I can think of that I don't like about a Cub Cadet zero turn is that you got one and I don't