The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

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1 minute ago, truth7t7 said:

Do you believe in a future 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, at the return of Jesus Christ?

No, I believe that the mill period is the time of the gospel kingdom on planet earth that began on Pentecost in 33 AD and ends when Jesus comes for the kingdom. Then it is the end when the fire comes.

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27 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

Do you believe in a future 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth, at the return of Jesus Christ?

You agree that the 7th trumpet, the 7th vial, and Rev 20:9-15 are parallel.

Are there any other passages in the Rev that are also parallel to these?

[truth7t7]

20 minutes ago, abcdef said:

No, I believe that the mill period is the time of the gospel kingdom on planet earth that began on Pentecost in 33 AD and ends when Jesus comes for the kingdom. Then it is the end when the fire comes.

We agree there is no future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

I believe the words (Thousand Years) seen in Revelation 20:4-6 are non-literal, and do nothing more than explain the Lord's eternal realm seen, where one day is a thousand years 2 Peter 3:8

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1 minute ago, truth7t7 said:

We agree there is no future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

I believe the words (Thousand Years) seen in Revelation 20:4-6 are non-literal, and do nothing more than explain the Lord's eternal realm seen, where one day is a thousand years 2 Peter 3:8

If the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial are parallel timelines, where are we right now in those timelines?

[truth7t7]

49 minutes ago, abcdef said:

You agree that the 7th trumpet, the 7th vial, and Rev 20:9-15 are parallel.

Are there any other passages in the Rev that are also parallel to these?

Yes they are "Parallel"

I believe Revelation 19:15-20 represents the second coming (The End) also

Edited January 29, 2023 by truth7t7

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11 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

Yes they are "Parallel"

I believe Revelation 19:15-20 represents the second coming (The End) also

7t7, Parallel timelines,

1st timeline, seals/trumpets,

Begins with Israel rejecting the gospel kingdom in 37 AD, ends when Jesus comes for the gospel kingdom, soon.

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2nd timeline, 2 Witnesses,

Begins when Israel rejects the gospel kingdom in 37 AD, ends when Jesus comes for the gospel kingdom (resur/rapt), then the fire.

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3rd timeline, Rev 12,

Begins when Rome invades Israel in 63 BC, ends when Jerusalem is restored in 1967.

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4th timeline, Rev 13,

Begins in 63 BC when Rome invades Israel, ends when Jerusalem is restored in 1967.

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5th timeline, Rev 14,

Begins with the resurrection of Jesus 33 AD, ends when Israel is restored to inside the city of Jerusalem in 1967.

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6th timeline, Rev chs 15 & 16,

Begins in 70 AD, ends with the fire from heaven. (Stone strikes)

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7th timeline, Rev chs 17-18 - 19:10,

Begins when the Rev was written in 85 - 96 AD ish, ends when Jerusalem is restored in 1967.

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8th timeline, Rev 19:11-21,

Begins when the Rev was written, ends when the Roman Empire (sea beast) becomes Christian, and the remnant continuing is shown (earth beast), 2nd/3rd century.

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9th timeline, Rev chs 20-21-22,

Begins with the 33 AD resurrection, ends with eternity.

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All these timelines are parallel. I didn't add many details.

Recognizing certain events and entities and their roles in history form the basis for the anchors in the timelines.

One example would be the birth of Jesus in Rev 12:5, in 33 AD.

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By placing the timelines over each other gives us more insight into the events described. 

The 6th trumpet and the 6th vial being the same events, show that the armies that cross the Euphrates River are headed for restored to Israel Jerusalem, marching east to west.

Other details are shown also and can be seen by the parallels.

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I know that you have your own ides about these things, so I won't continue.

My thought would be not to let the pretrib timeline influence your thinking on this. That is, abandon completely the pretrib timeline and do not let it influence this new approach to the structure of the Revelation.

Don't try to cram everything into 7 years, it doesn't work.

[JoeCanada]

On 1/28/2023 at 8:28 PM, abcdef said:

You agree that the 7th trumpet, the 7th vial, and Rev 20:9-15 are parallel.

Are there any other passages in the Rev that are also parallel to these?

Hi abc....

7th trumpet: Jesus is coronated as King, the temple of God in heaven was opened, and...... there were flashes of lightening and sounds and peals of thunder, and an earthquake , and a great hailstorm

7th vial: "It is done" .... flashes of lightening and sounds and peals of thunder, and there was an earthquake.....

AN EARTHQUAKE SUCH AS THERE HAD NOT BEEN SINCE MAN CAME TO BE ON THE EARTH, SO GREAT AN EARTHQUAKE WAS IT, AND SO MIGHTY.

THE GREAT CITY WAS SPLIT INTO THREE PARTS,

AND THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL.

AND EVERY ISLAND FLED AWAY,

AND THE MOUNTAINS WERE NOT FOUND.

AND HUGE HAILSTONES ABOUT A HUNDRED POUNDS EACH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN UPON MEN.

Why not throw the events @ the 7th seal into the mix:

7th seal: there were peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightening and an earthquake

The difference between the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial is easily seen and cannot be a parallel event. They are not even the same. Similar.....yes, with thunder, lightening and an earthquake, the same that is said of events at the 7th seal.

But.... here is the difference. At each one, the judgment from God is intensified.

7th seal... thunder, lightening, earthquake.

7th trumpet.... thunder, lightening, earthquake....  AND............  a great hailstorm

7th vial... thunder, lightening, an earthquake SO GREAT that every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.... AND.......... a great hailstorm with 100 lb hailstones (30 inches in diameter and hitting the ground/man at 285 mph).... these hailstones would flatten whatever remained upright still!

As for rev 20:9-15.... it's not even remotely tied to the events during the 70th week, or end times, or whatever a person would call it. Rev 20:9-15 is after Satan is bound for a long period of time, and is then released. 

 

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18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Hi abc....

7th trumpet: Jesus is coronated as King,

Brother,

Jesus is already king and sits on the heavenly throne as God.

The details of the 7th trumpet (last trumpet) show that it is a picture of the coming of Jesus for the kingdom before the judgment, Rev 11:18.

A parallel passage would be Dan 2:34-35, 45, where the stone strikes the statue, and Jesus harvests the kingdom, Rev 11:15.

After the 7th trumpet, the seals/trumpet timeline ends. Then begins a new timeline about Israel that begins about the time of the birth of Jesus in -0- AD ish.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

the temple of God in heaven was opened, and...... there were flashes of lightening and sounds and peals of thunder, and an earthquake , and a great hailstorm

Rev 11:19, See that heaven is opened and the ark is seen there. Jesus is the ark of the new gospel kingdom covenant. This is the revealing of Jesus, His face.

As you point out, the effects of the 7th trumpet are the same as the 7th vial.

This is one observation that can open the possibility that they are describing the same event.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

7th vial: "It is done" .... flashes of lightening and sounds and peals of thunder, and there was an earthquake.....

The main difference between the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial, is that the 7th trumpet is in the context of the children of Israel and the 7th vial is in the context of the beast nation.

They are describing the same event, the stone striking (Dan 2), but the context is directed at 2 different groups of people.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

AN EARTHQUAKE SUCH AS THERE HAD NOT BEEN SINCE MAN CAME TO BE ON THE EARTH, SO GREAT AN EARTHQUAKE WAS IT, AND SO MIGHTY.

Please observe that the event leading up to the 7th vial is the battle of Armageddon between Israel and the armies of the kings of the east and their allies, similar to the 6th trumpet.

The speculation would be that if Israel would win this battle, that there would be no need for the destruction of Jerusalem at the 7th vial.

But if Israel would lose the battle, and Jerusalem falls, then the armies of the kings of the east would be occupying Jerusalem when the events of the 7th vial occurred.

That means that if the 7th trumpet were to sound as being the same event, then the resur/rapt would happen, and then the events of the 7th vial would take place against the kings of the east in Jerusalem, ending human life on this planet. (Because Israel is no more)  

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

THE GREAT CITY WAS SPLIT INTO THREE PARTS,

AND THE CITIES OF THE NATIONS FELL.

AND EVERY ISLAND FLED AWAY,

AND THE MOUNTAINS WERE NOT FOUND.

AND HUGE HAILSTONES ABOUT A HUNDRED POUNDS EACH CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN UPON MEN.

These events are the result of the Dan 2 stone striking the statue. The same consequences as the 7th trumpet.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Why not throw the events @ the 7th seal into the mix:

7th seal: there were peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightening and an earthquake

I'm sorry my brother, but this is not quite correct. There is only an earthquake shown at the 6th seal and not thunder and lightning.

The 6th seal is the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.

 This confirmed by the observation that the event is the fulfillment of prophecy by Jesus in Lk 23:30, Rev 6:16. 

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

The difference between the 7th trumpet and the 7th vial is easily seen and cannot be a parallel event.

The details in the similarities are greater than the differences. The 6th trumpet and the 6th vial both show armies coming toward Jerusalem from across the Euphrates River.

Both the 7th trumpet and 7th vial indicate that Israel and Jerusalem fall, as the result is the total destruction of the planet.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

They are not even the same. Similar.....yes, with thunder, lightening and an earthquake, the same that is said of events at the 7th seal.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

But.... here is the difference. At each one, the judgment from God is intensified.

7th seal... thunder, lightening, earthquake.

7th trumpet.... thunder, lightening, earthquake....  AND............  a great hailstorm

7th vial... thunder, lightening, an earthquake SO GREAT that every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.... AND.......... a great hailstorm with 100 lb hailstones (30 inches in diameter and hitting the ground/man at 285 mph).... these hailstones would flatten whatever remained upright still!

7th vial, No more islands or mountains? Jerusalem destroyed?

The observation, the symbolism, of Jerusalem being divided into 1/3 rds shows that the stone striking, is a direct hit on the city.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

As for rev 20:9-15.... it's not even remotely tied to the events during the 70th week,

The 70th week ended in 37 AD when Israel rejected the covenant between God and Israel, confirmed by Jesus, Gal 3:17. Please read this verse.

Jesus came at the beginning of the 70th week, confirmed the covenant by His death and resurrection, and the beginning of the promised new covenant kingdom. Then 70th week ended in 37 AD when Israel rejected Jesus and the new covenant.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

or end times, or whatever a person would call it.

 Well, there are several "ends" in the timelines.

These events, the 7th trumpet, the 7th vial, and the Rev 20 fire from heaven, are all the same end. That is, the end of Israel on this planet, the resur/rapt, and the final judgment.

Understanding how they fit together is important, as they are about to happen.

Please, ask questions.

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

 

18 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

Rev 20:9-15 is after Satan is bound for a long period of time, and is then released. 

Satan is the dragon, Rev 20:2. The dragon nation is Rome, Rev 12, Dan 2 iron.

Satan is not bound, that he cannot cause men to sin, but only that he cannot deceive the gentile nations to surround Jerusalem and destroy the people of Israel, Rev 20:8 until Jerusalem is restored.

Careful observation will show that it is happening now.

The Revelation is made up of parallel passages, and is not necessarily consecutive.

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I agree with your motto at the end of your posts. I will put what you believe to the test, for the better, for both of us.

[JoeCanada]

19 hours ago, abcdef said:

Jesus is already king and sits on the heavenly throne as God.

WE are so far apart in our understanding of end times that I don't really know where to begin answering you. 

But I'll start here:

At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, I said that Jesus is coronated as King.

You say ...... "Jesus is already king and sits on the heavenly throne as God."

While that may be true in a sense, it is at the 7th trumpet that Jesus is 'officially' coronated as King of the earth. Rev 11:15 says..." The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever"

HAS BECOME is in the present perfect tense. Not the past, not the future, but in the present.

 

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

WE are so far apart in our understanding of end times that I don't really know where to begin answering you.

It is understandable that we seem to have some differences, that is normal, and something that should lead to knowledge and understanding, for both of us.

As I said, I will challenge the understanding that you are comfortable in about prophecy. My aim is to make you really think about what some have accepted.

 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

But I'll start here:

At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, I said that Jesus is coronated as King.

You say ...... "Jesus is already king and sits on the heavenly throne as God."

 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

While that may be true in a sense, it is at the 7th trumpet that Jesus is 'officially' coronated as King of the earth.

Well my brother, it doesn't say that Jesus is coronated in that exact wording. You may agree that He sits on the throne of God already, Rev  5:13.

You may agree that Jesus has all power in heaven and in earth, Matt 28:18.

What you seem to be saying, is the when the kingdoms of this world (planet), become the kingdoms of Jesus, that it means that Jesus officially becomes king of this world and is coronated, even though it doesn't say that exactly.

 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

Rev 11:15 says..." The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever"

KJV? NIV?

 

1 hour ago, JoeCanada said:

HAS BECOME is in the present perfect tense. Not the past, not the future, but in the present.

I would offer this, that the parallel of this event is Dan 2:34-35, where the stone strikes the statue.

During the time of the statue of the gentile nations that rule over the people of Israel, you may agree that the 7th trumpet had not been blown during that time, of the rule of the gentile nations. 

Since the time before the end of the statue shows the gentile nations still ruling, we might assume that Jesus had not taken full control over those gentile nations, as He does at the 7th trumpet, when the nations of the world become the nations of His Christ, because they are still ruling.

Then after the time of the statue ends, the stone strikes.

After the stone strikes, then the different nations of the planet cease to exist as different nations, as the statue is turned into wheat and chaff.

The chaff nations are blown away by the wind (Spirit), and the wheat enters into the new earth., Dan 2:35.

This wheat chaff judgment is parallel to the judgment seen at the 7th trumpet where the dead are judged, Rev 11:18.

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When the statue is struck by the stone, the nationalities of this planet cease to be flesh, and become souls as wheat and chaff. This ends the kingdoms of this world, as kingdoms.

The chaff souls of the world kingdoms are blown away.

The saved souls, of the kingdoms of this world, enter the new earth after the judgment.

This is how the kingdoms of this world, become the kingdoms of Christ at the 7th trumpet.

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You might also observe that it says that at the time of the 7th trumpet, it says that it is time to reward the prophets and the saints. Rev 11:18. It might be assumed the the reward is heaven, after the judgment.

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It says Jesus has begun to reign. But Jesus already has all power. So could it be that it means that the reign, that it is talking about, is the reign over the kingdom in it's final heavenly form, without the unbelievers, of the chaff? (Probably) 

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Also, please consider this, that the 7th trumpet is the end of the timeline shown. Rev 12 begins a new timeline.

If the kingdoms of the world, become the kingdoms of Christ, then there should be no more wars between different nations, or conflicts between nations, because all the kingdoms are now one kingdom under Christ. This would contradict any mention of different nations in the passages that follow Rev 11, if the Revelation was consecutive.

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The 7th trumpet is an event that shows the end of this world/planet, and not something that has any other events following it that involves planet earth, only the judgment and heaven.