The Chronological Order Of The Revelation

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Day of the Lord lasts 1260 days, its not ONE DAY. 

I have never stated a duration for the day of the Lord. I have made a few guesses that it's maybe a year or as few as 3-5 months. But I don't know. No one does. It's all assumption based on personal views. 

 

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It begins at the 7th Seal,

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

All that exists about the 7th seal. Silence in heaven. Nothing else. You have a nice story, but it's just a story.

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

or really the 1st Trump,

"The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast on the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

All that exists about the 1st trump. 

And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

All that is said about the trumps in general. No mention of wrath. You suppose this is wrath. The general pretrib argument, "This is horrible, how can it not be the wrath of God?" is rhetoric ignorant of the facts, e.g.:

"seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

"And one of the four beasts gave to the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God,"

Only the vials are the wrath of God as this is never said about seals or trumpets.

22 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

but the 7th Seal ANNOUNCES IT.

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

This is all that is said about the 7th seal. Why the silence? I tend toward the idea it's a solemn moment to reflect on what's about the occur. Much like we do to commemorate a past crisis or a death. Here the weight of what's about to happen must be terribly heavy as all of heaven is silent. 

You, and many others, think that because this, "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." follows directly after this, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour" that one flows form the other. That is a logical fallacy. Lindsey proposed this back in the 70's. Maybe others before that, too. Correlation is not causation and this idea is correct here. 

John said "And I saw..." This does not show a correlation nor a cause between the silence in heaven and the 7 trumps nor that the 7th trumps are a direct result of the silence in heaven or the opening of the seal. 

John is saying, "I saw the 7th seal opened and heard silence. And I saw 7 angels given 7 trumps." If there was some other language like, "Then after this..." I would agree with you. The language is precise and means just what it says; it does not carry the idea the trumps follow the 7th seal. 

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Likewise, the Wrath is in Rev. 8 and in Rev. 11 even though Rev. 11 is not a real time event, the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials. You take the Two-witnesses chapter and try to make it a REAL TIME EVENT, its not per se. That is why it covers the 2nd Woe AGAIN and why it only speaks about the 3rd Woe in a PASSING GLANCE, its understood the 7th Trump IS THAT 3rd Woe. We see that in Rev. 16 {7 Vials} just like we see the 2nd Woe in Rev. 9. 

Even if I did understand what you mean here it has no bearing on what I posted. But you have this correct; "the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe which is the 7 Vials.". More precisely the 7th trumpet is the wrath of God which is contained in the last 7 plagues which are in the vials held by the angels.

23 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

It will come to you one day, even if that day is in Heaven brother. We see darkly now, some are not called to see these things. That is why we have different callings.

Always with the attempt to shame and belittle while exalting yourself. Must you?

[Last Daze]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

But then when does one place the 7th trump?

At the end of the great day of His wrath.  As I understand end time chronology, the day of His wrath begins at the sixth seal and lasts for a little more than three years.  It is a time of judgment that ends in wrath for those who refuse to repent.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

To me it looks like Rev 11:15-18 is giving us the details of the all the amazing things happening on the 'great day' which are much more than just the destruction of the rebels.

Agree.  The destruction of the rebels is only one aspect of His wrath when He returns.  

[Revelation Man]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

I have never stated a duration for the day of the Lord. I have made a few guesses that it's maybe a year or as few as 3-5 months. But I don't know. No one does. It's all assumption based on personal views. 

 

Yes, we know its 1260 days. it lasts from the Trumps till the end, a a matter of fact the Trumps are ONE ASTEROID HITTING {First Four Trumps} and then THREE WOES, Apollyon is released in Woe one, a 200 Million Angelic Army slays 1/3 of mankind in the 22nd Woe and the 7th Trump brings us the 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 Vials. 

During the Seals its clearly called the Lambs Wrath, so the Seals only FORETELL what is coming in the TRUMPS. Thus the Wrath starts with he first Trump and end when Trump 7's VIALS are finished being poured out. 

The reason many people have been in error on the events {NOT TIMING, the timing is obvious because of Daniel's 1260} is because they/we have seen the Seals as ACTIONABLE EVENTS, they are not actionable events at all, they are Jesus opening a SCROLL in order to pronounce his Wrath, and as hes doing so with every Seal he gives a little hint at what is coming. Thus the first 5 Seals are about the coming Anti-Christ's rule on earth and what his ACTIONS will bring. The 6th Seal is Jesus announcing the arrival of his Wrath, where we made the mistake at is not understanding all the Seals have to be BROKEN before he can read them, thus the 6th Seal is what is about the befall mankind just like the first 5 Seals are. Its the Joel 2 EVENT........But it happens  via the first four Trumps. I have argued a many a men a many a times that the Seals, Trumps and Vials can;t be the same events, and while this is true, the SEALS as FORETOLD are the Trumps, because the Seals are not ACTIONABLE IN NATURE. The Asteroid that plunges to earth begins God's Wrath  !! It is the DAY OF THE LORD as described by Joel in chapter 2. The huge Asteroid plunges towards earth and as it does the FIRE HITS FIRST, and starts burning, then the 2nd Trump is the Asteroid hitting, I think in the Pacific Ocean as it effects a 1/3 of the world etc. etc. THEN the Fourth Angel brings DARKNESS by a 1/3 which is what wiped the Dinos out eventually, the lack of food via the Darkness not allowing sunlight to grow the food they needed, once they ate each other off or starved to death, they were extinct. Thus Trump number 4 is the 6th Seal IN ACTION. We aren't give a play by play on the Anti-Christs ACTIONS HERE, we are given that in Rev. 12 and 13. He CHASES Israel into the Wilderness and then we see the Anti-Christ IN GENERAL over the whole world {which will only be the E.U. and that Region, looks like the Americas are in chaos because of the Asteroid}. 

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

All that exists about the 7th seal. Silence in heaven. Nothing else. You have a nice story, but it's just a story.

Meaning Jesus can OPEN THE SCROLL of Judgments. God always PAUSES before Judgment, see Nineveh. Which is why I stated it only really begins with the 1st Trump. That makes the overall point salient.

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

"The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast on the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

All that exists about the 1st trump. 

And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."

All that is said about the trumps in general. No mention of wrath. You suppose this is wrath. The general pretrib argument, "This is horrible, how can it not be the wrath of God?" is rhetoric ignorant of the facts, e.g.:

"seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God."

"And one of the four beasts gave to the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God,"

Only the vials are the wrath of God as this is never said about seals or trumpets.

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The 6th Seal is CLEARLY the Asteroid hitting the earth, thus the Lambs Wrath HAS COME via the Trumps. So its mentioned, you just missed it.

The Seven LAST PLAGUES bring the end to God's Judgments. I do not even get why people are so........it just makes me SMH. How does any person that reads the bible not get what the Holy Spirit is saying and always clings to SINGLE WORDS.......AND PHRASES is beyond me.

Try reading Joel 2, try reading Rev. 6 where its called the Lambs Wrath. NOW.......PUT IT ALL TOGETHER !!

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

This is all that is said about the 7th seal. Why the silence? I tend toward the idea it's a solemn moment to reflect on what's about the occur. Much like we do to commemorate a past crisis or a death. Here the weight of what's about to happen must be terribly heavy as all of heaven is silent. 

You, and many others, think that because this, "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." follows directly after this, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour" that one flows form the other. That is a logical fallacy. Lindsey proposed this back in the 70's. Maybe others before that, too. Correlation is not causation and this idea is correct here. 

John said "And I saw..." This does not show a correlation nor a cause between the silence in heaven and the 7 trumps nor that the 7th trumps are a direct result of the silence in heaven or the opening of the seal. 

John is saying, "I saw the 7th seal opened and heard silence. And I saw 7 angels given 7 trumps." If there was some other language like, "Then after this..." I would agree with you. The language is precise and means just what it says; it does not carry the idea the trumps follow the 7th seal

John is not saying ANYTHING, this was given unto John by Jess who got it from God. Eve the visions John saw were given unto him by Jesus. 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

This is all that is said about the 7th seal. Why the silence? I tend toward the idea it's a solemn moment to reflect on what's about the occur. Much like we do to commemorate a past crisis or a death. Here the weight of what's about to happen must be terribly heavy as all of heaven is silent. 

You, and many others, think that because this, "And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets." follows directly after this, "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour" that one flows form the other. That is a logical fallacy. Lindsey proposed this back in the 70's. Maybe others before that, too. Correlation is not causation and this idea is correct here. 

John said "And I saw..." This does not show a correlation nor a cause between the silence in heaven and the 7 trumps nor that the 7th trumps are a direct result of the silence in heaven or the opening of the seal. 

John is saying, "I saw the 7th seal opened and heard silence. And I saw 7 angels given 7 trumps." If there was some other language like, "Then after this..." I would agree with you. The language is precise and means just what it says; it does not carry the idea the trumps follow the 7th seal

All of the Trumps and Vials are the Wrath of God, the 7 Seals are just the last of that Wrath. 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Always with the attempt to shame and belittle while exalting yourself. Must you?

I am exalting the TRUTH............And telling you the truth, you will understand i the next world. The same thing Paul stated, we see darkly now. The difference is I was called to Eschatology 35 years ago. And I only started seeing IN FULL 5 or so years ago. So I have been there also, the BREAKTHROUGH is realizing most things learned by men are shaped by Satan on this earth, only the true things of God are not..........So if there is 100's of ideas as per tom what Babylon is, who do you think WHISPERED all of the FALSE IDEAS to men, even men of the Church ? Satan the LIAR, of course. His job is to confuse and deceive. So thinking hes not involved in DOCTRINE is just not true. I see it everywhere, things like the Rev. 12 SIGN IN HEAVEN........I saw that as an untruth right off the bat. The SIGN is about the Gen. 37:9 fact that the Woman is Israel, nothing more, nothing less.

[Diaste]

19 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes, we know its 1260 days. it lasts from the Trumps till the end, a a matter of fact the Trumps are ONE ASTEROID HITTING {First Four Trumps} and then THREE WOES, Apollyon is released in Woe one, a 200 Million Angelic Army slays 1/3 of mankind in the 22nd Woe and the 7th Trump brings us the 3rd Woe which is ALL 7 Vials. 

hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast on the earth, - 1st Trump

a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea, - 2nd Trump

there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, - 3rd Trump

Not an asteroid, a meteor or meteorite. But these three do not look like one incident. When is a mountain the same as a star? And what? Does the mountain fall into the sea then go back up, become a star then fall on the river and springs of water? Illogical, Captain.

25 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

During the Seals its clearly called the Lambs Wrath,

Except for the fact only the vials are called wrath. It's only clearly in a personal story, not scriptural.

28 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

The 6th Seal is CLEARLY the Asteroid hitting the earth, thus the Lambs Wrath HAS COME via the Trumps. So its mentioned, you just missed it.

The Seven LAST PLAGUES bring the end to God's Judgments. I do not even get why people are so........it just makes me SMH. How does any person that reads the bible not get what the Holy Spirit is saying and always clings to SINGLE WORDS.......AND PHRASES is beyond me.

Try reading Joel 2, try reading Rev. 6 where its called the Lambs Wrath. NOW.......PUT IT ALL TOGETHER !!

Where do you get an asteroid hitting the earth? Asteroids orbit the sun, meteorites hit the earth. But the text does not link a collision with earth to the 6th seal. Please present that bit of text if you can.

The 7 plagues are not 'judgments' it's wrath. The text says 'wrath' not judgment. You're like a mix and match kind of guy aren't you. Anything goes. 

Yes Rev 6 is when wrath is imminent. That does not prove that anything other than the vials are wrath.

33 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

John is not saying ANYTHING, this was given unto John by Jess who got it from God. Eve the visions John saw were given unto him by Jesus. 

Wrong. John wrote that he saw. "And I saw..." So Jesus saw? Jesus told John to say, "And I saw..."? The Revelation is given by God to Jesus then to John. John wrote it down by what he heard and saw in the vision. "And I heard..." "And I saw..." is John saying he saw something or heard something. That that something is from God through Christ is obvious.

37 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

All of the Trumps and Vials are the Wrath of God, the 7 Seals are just the last of that Wrath. 

Quote chapter and verse proving the trumps are wrath. Scripture says directly the vials are wrath. I'll save you the time. Trumps are not said to be wrath. Judgments? Sure, I could agree to that. But wrath? Never.

39 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

am exalting the TRUTH............And telling you the truth, you will understand i the next world. The same thing Paul stated, we see darkly now. The difference is I was called to Eschatology 35 years ago. And I only started seeing IN FULL 5 or so years ago. So I have been there also, the BREAKTHROUGH is realizing most things learned by men are shaped by Satan on this earth, only the true things of God are not..........So if there is 100's of ideas as per tom what Babylon is, who do you think WHISPERED all of the FALSE IDEAS to men, even men of the Church ? Satan the LIAR, of course. His job is to confuse and deceive. So thinking hes not involved in DOCTRINE is just not true. I see it everywhere, things like the Rev. 12 SIGN IN HEAVEN........I saw that as an untruth right off the bat. The SIGN is about the Gen. 37:9 fact that the Woman is Israel, nothing more, nothing less.

Bah. You elevate yourself to an authority by this, "The difference is I was called to Eschatology 35 years ago. And I only started seeing IN FULL 5 or so years ago." Only Christ and His word are the authority. I don't recognize any other in matters of prophecy. 

It's important you insinuate others are speaking satanically induced lies. This way you can denigrate all others and elevate yourself.

[not an echo]

On 5/10/2020 at 6:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/10/2020 at 1:28 AM, not an echo said:

  With the sounding of each of the seven trumpets, there will be wrath.  It is the Day of the Lord. 

Even though only the bowls are called the wrath of God? No wrath of the Almighty is ever mentioned in association with the trumpets. That's adding. Unless you can prove by a similar statement to these: 

"Then I saw another great and marvelous sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven final plagues, with which the wrath of God is completed."

"Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God,"

Hello again Diaste (and all),

I'm just not understanding what you are seeing as a difficulty here.  Borrowing from your own words, it is right there in black and white.  After the 6th Seal is opened, in Revelation 6, it reads:

 15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

 16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the WRATH of the Lamb:

 17  For the great day of His WRATH is come;  and who shall be able to stand?

Although what happens here is separated by chapter seven from the opening of the 7th Seal and the sounding of the trumpets, this chapter is clearly just an interlude relating to what John sees after his account of the opening of the 6th Seal.  Because there is no time frame given relating to the subsequent opening of the 7th Seal, scripturally it can be opened the same day, and I believe that it is.  Likewise with the sounding of the first four trumpets.  So, the destruction that happens with the sounding of these trumpets joins hard with the WRATH that "is come."  And, I don't see it this way simply because those left behind are saying that His wrath is come.  Isaiah 13:6-11 speaks to this, especially in verse nine:   

  9   Behold, the Day of the LORD cometh, CRUEL both with WRATH and FIERCE ANGER, to lay the land desolate:  and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Interestingly, it is quite evident that some land is going to lay desolate after the sounding of the the first four trumpets.  Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, aren't you even seeing a convergence of Rev. 11:18 with Rev. 6:17 because of the same use of the phrase "wrath is come"?  What then is your own difficulty seeing the destruction stemming from the trumpets as being part of the wrath of God?  From another angle, are you seeing the seven vials of wrath as representing all the wrath that God has?  Diaste, in all honesty, I can't help but be reminded of Paul's instruction to Timothy that he charge some "that they strive not about words to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).

Consider all the arsenal of the United States military.  If our battleships begin to shell a rogue nation, the inhabitants of that land could rightly say, "The wrath of the United States is come."  Later, if during a news broadcast, we see that our military has rained cruise missiles upon that land, we could as appropriately say, "The wrath of the United States is come."  And then, even later, if we dropped 7 nuclear bombs on that land, a more full impact of our nation's wrath would be realized.  But, even then, the full extent of our wrath capabilities would not be known.  I have tried to see where you are coming from, and I do to an extent.  I hope you are seeing where I am coming from.

On 5/10/2020 at 6:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/10/2020 at 1:28 AM, not an echo said:

Finally, as I see it, there is no justification for trying to converge the sounding of the 7th Trumpet with the opening of the 6th Seal,

I'm not trying to converge anything. It's written. If it's incorrect then find direct statements that refute it. 

I perhaps made a poor choice of words here.  When we are trying to rightly divide the Word, it takes some study, or work.  Like putting a puzzle together can sometimes be difficult, especially when it comes to some of those blue sky pieces!  Some pieces look so similar that it can be easy to be mistaken.  So Diaste, if we were sitting at a table together, working on a 1000 piece puzzle, I might say to you that I don't think that piece you are showing me goes where you are trying to put it.  And, I can see you taking issue.  But, I would still like you, a little bit anyway. 

On 5/10/2020 at 6:46 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

simply because the coming of God's wrath is spoken of in both places.  

Why isn't this part of your statement ignoring the evidence? It's apparent wrath has come within the scope of the harbingers. One, in Rev 6, where we see the people of earth so frightened they ask the mountains to fall on them to hide them; and two, in Rev 11, the elders in heaven declaring the moment of wrath has come and Jesus' reign begins.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here.  I may just be too tired.

On 5/10/2020 at 6:46 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/10/2020 at 1:28 AM, not an echo said:

Millions of God's children have suffered and died for the cause of Christ in the last 2000 years.  Many do in our day.  As Christians have been burned at the stake, shot, starved, and maltreated in numerous other ways, I have often wondered how much more severe such would have to be, in the eyes of some, for it to be considered great tribulation.

This is all true, of course. But again it's ignorant of the entire body of evidence. It's 'the' great tribulation. Not a general condition of two millennia. Not that 2000 years is the whole story. The hardships you mentioned have been happening since Cain slew Abel. Who do you think was walking with Adam and Eve and visited Cain? It was Jesus, of course. Who do you think the OT prophets died for? Who visited Abraham? In the wanderings in the desert the cloud and the fire and the rock is Christ. The entire OT is testimony of Jesus and His Messianic role.

And as we see here; "And white robes were given to every one of them; and it was said to them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brothers, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." 

A specific way of execution is spoken of here. And it happens to a certain group by a particular time and is associated with the end of the age, the gathering, and the return of the King. What leads you to believe this is spread over 2000 years or more?

First of all, in light of the first three verses of The Revelation, which is foundational to our correct understanding, I cannot see there being a 2000 year disconnect between what was "at hand" to begin to "come to pass" and the first thing that rightly goes into this category finally taking place.

And Diaste, in some respects, it isn't quite the same thing that has been happening for the past 2000 years as it was prior.  For the past 2000 years we have had the Church active in the world, with the power conferred to us on the Day of Pentecost.  There has been a battle all this time, and often it has raged, between us who are a part of Christ's Church and the principalities---the powers---the rulers of the darkness of this world---and the spiritual wickedness in high places---that we have faced (Eph. 6:12).  It would have been easy for the Church to think that it would have had much more success than it has.  In other respects, it's just the same ole same ole, because it's the same Devil and his crew that has been at it throughout history.  In some respects, it's going to be the same ole same ole till Christ's Millennial Reign, and after that, some more of the same ole same ole till God shuts Satan down for eternity.  Now, we do know very well that during Daniel's 70th Week, Satan and his imps are going to continue to be active, and there's even going to be some beheading.  But, it's not like this is going to be some novel way to martyr those who are following God.  So really, I'm just not able to see where the weight of your argument lies.

Concerning the cry of the martyrs in Rev. 6:9-11, they ask what I see as a very telling question.  If these are martyrs of Daniel's 70th Week, as I believe you are taking it, why would they ask the question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"  However you cut it, if these are 70th Week martyrs, not much time will have passed.  If these are 70th Week martyrs, they will be in the company of many who did not see their killers come to judgment for decades, and none will have yet seen their killers meet their ultimate judgment.  Rather, I see these as Church era martyrs, who are being told that it will "yet be a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev. 6:11).  These words easily harmonize with Daniel's 70th Week (a little season!), and those who will be martyred during that time, which would mean that as that time draws nearer, so will the opening of this seal.  Because I see the time of the rapture as being imminent, and Daniel's 70th Week beginning not long thereafter, I have no problem seeing this seal as having already been opened.  As I have said similarly before, this leaves the 6th Seal, which I believe can be opened before I push Submit Reply.

I do hope you will look afresh at what I am seeing concerning the chronological order of The Revelation.  As I see things, it is going to be found to hold.

Edited January 28, 2023 by not an echo

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Interestingly, it is quite evident that some land is going to lay desolate after the sounding of the the first four trumpets.  Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, aren't you even seeing a convergence of Rev. 11:18 with Rev. 6:17 because of the same use of the phrase "wrath is come"?  What then is your own difficulty seeing the destruction stemming from the trumpets as being part of the wrath of God?  From another angle, are you seeing the seven vials of wrath as representing all the wrath that God has?  Diaste, in all honesty, I can't help but be reminded of Paul's instruction to Timothy that he charge some "that they strive not about words to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).

Of course. The two references are the foundation of the argument. The problem is wrath would begin twice if seals, trump and bowls are strictly chronological. In looking at the verb 'is come' it's the same word in both instances; erchomai, which is an arrival. It's literally 'I come to and go from' in relation to and in proximity of the other events and conditions occurring. If there was anyway it could be shown this arrival was before, or previous and ongoing, I could accept your proposition. Alas, no such idea exists. There is circumstantial evidence as well: The last trump, the 3rd Rider, Joel 1, etc.

The attempt to shame to shut me down will fall on deaf ears. I do not respect the pretrib doctrine in any way. It has no merit and is a doctrine to be opposed as it has no scriptural support.

I see this shaming tactic quite often when discussing the timing of the Lord's return and the gathering and it's usually employed when my opposite has nothing else. If you like I could go though a few hundred previous posts and give many examples. So let's stick to the facts. 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Consider all the arsenal of the United States military.  If our battleships begin to shell a rogue nation, the inhabitants of that land could rightly say, "The wrath of the United States is come."  Later, if during a news broadcast, we see that our military has rained cruise missiles upon that land, we could as appropriately say, "The wrath of the United States is come."  And then, even later, if we dropped 7 nuclear bombs on that land, a more full impact of our nation's wrath would be realized.  But, even then, the full extent of our wrath capabilities would not be known.  I have tried to see where you are coming from, and I do to an extent.  I hope you are seeing where I am coming from.

As inapt an analogy as there is. Rhetoric won't work. I appreciate the effort 'to see where I am coming from' but it's not necessary. It's not me, it's what is clearly written.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

I do hope you will look afresh at what I am seeing concerning the chronological order of The Revelation.  As I see things, it is going to be found to hold.

It's not that I don't see, I do. From the 70's and before we had Lindsey, Van Impe, Chick, and a host of others advocating pretrib. It's what I learned and I read a great deal about it. It was the dominant idea at the time and continues to be. Upon examination, shame on me for verifying their words, I found inconsistencies and noticed many things were assumed. Over the years as I kept at the study and examination I came to the conclusion pretrib is built on a single false premise governing the entire doctrine;

The 70th week is equivalent to the wrath of God.

No evidence for the premise and the doctrine is ignorant of the evidence against and employs rhetoric instead of fact, e.g., "It's such a horrible time it has to be the wrath of God."

I find that to be logically untenable and outside the facts contained in the scriptures.

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/10/2020 at 11:25 AM, Diaste said:

hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast on the earth, - 1st Trump

a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea, - 2nd Trump

there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, - 3rd Trump

Not an asteroid, a meteor or meteorite. But these three do not look like one incident. When is a mountain the same as a star? And what? Does the mountain fall into the sea then go back up, become a star then fall on the river and springs of water? Illogical, Captain.

If a Star fell to this earth we would be incinerated. The Greek word used is ASTER.........Its where we get asteroid from. It will be BURNING remember, so John would see it as a star. Hes probably shown a huge rock being cast into the Sea AND THEN the same Rock ON FIRE hitting the Sea. 

 

On 5/10/2020 at 11:25 AM, Diaste said:

Except for the fact only the vials are called wrath. It's only clearly in a personal story, not scriptural.

 

That's just not true, the Seals are opened and its announced the Lamb's Wrath has come. The quote you cite FILLS UP all of God's Wrath on mankind, or QUENCHES God's Wrath. You are looking at it and its like a 3D Picture, you see something that is not there, though it appears to be there.

Rev. 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Preparation for the Bowl Judgments
Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another great and awe-inspiring sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven last plagues, for with them, God’s wrath will be completed.

It really seems to me people have a problem getting the Olde English ways of writing. If you fill up your tank of gas did it have to be EMPTY ? No, of course not, unless you ran out of gas, but if you had a half a tank of gas you could be said to have FILLED UP you car with Gas, even though the gas you just bought was/is not the ONLY GAS in the car. Likewise, the Vials are not all of God's Wrath. All of the 7 Trumps are God's Wrath and the 7th Trump is the 3rd Woe which finishes off God's Wrath. The DOTL starts with the Asteroid. I believe it will be the one in 2029 with all of my being, God always WARNS before Judgment, this Plague that shut down the whole world is the final warning to mankind,, IMHO.

On 5/10/2020 at 11:25 AM, Diaste said:

Where do you get an asteroid hitting the earth? Asteroids orbit the sun, meteorites hit the earth. But the text does not link a collision with earth to the 6th seal. Please present that bit of text if you can.

The 7 plagues are not 'judgments' it's wrath. The text says 'wrath' not judgment. You're like a mix and match kind of guy aren't you. Anything goes. 

Yes Rev 6 is when wrath is imminent. That does not prove that anything other than the vials are wrath.

Meteorites are small, Asteroids are much larger in nature. And it can look like a SUN.....Its all according to how large it is, one 400 yards wide is going to pack a punch. The Moon has saved us from large impacts before, not this time.

.

 

On 5/10/2020 at 11:25 AM, Diaste said:

Wrong. John wrote that he saw. "And I saw..." So Jesus saw? Jesus told John to say, "And I saw..."? The Revelation is given by God to Jesus then to John. John wrote it down by what he heard and saw in the vision. "And I heard..." "And I saw..." is John saying he saw something or heard something. That that something is from God through Christ is obvious.

 

Yes, but he was given all of his understandings by Jesus, that is my point. He did not just write all of those ENCODED WORDS in the book of Revelation, only God could do that. Jesus showed him SIGNS and such. Its all written via the Holy Spirit guiding John, the first verse tells us that.

Rev. 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So, God the Father gave this to Jesus, who allowed an Angel(s) to signify it unto John, in other words the Angel MADE SURE John got it just as Jesus wanted it to be thus the word SIGNIFY.............It basically means he pointed him to SOMETHING........and that thing was the Revelation the Father gave Jesus. 

On 5/10/2020 at 11:25 AM, Diaste said:

Where do you get an asteroid hitting the earth? Asteroids orbit the sun, meteorites hit the earth. But the text does not link a collision with earth to the 6th seal. Please present that bit of text if you can.

The 7 plagues are not 'judgments' it's wrath. The text says 'wrath' not judgment. You're like a mix and match kind of guy aren't you. Anything goes. 

Yes Rev 6 is when wrath is imminent. That does not prove that anything other than the vials are wrath.

I meant the Vials are just the last of the Trumps in that the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe which is the 7th Trumpet. 

The Wrath of God is shown in the Seal as coming with the DOTL sign of Joel 2......that is what the first Four Trumps are. We are told those who hide are doing so to try and be shed of the Lambs Wrath. 

On 5/10/2020 at 11:25 AM, Diaste said:

Bah. You elevate yourself to an authority by this, "The difference is I was called to Eschatology 35 years ago. And I only started seeing IN FULL 5 or so years ago." Only Christ and His word are the authority. I don't recognize any other in matters of prophecy. 

It's important you insinuate others are speaking satanically induced lies. This way you can denigrate all others and elevate yourself.

You are RUNNING IN PLACE just like I used to be, EXCEPT, if I had someone tell me the truth, I would have SEEN IT......I have never been one who accepts falsehoods, no matter when they came my way, the RCC bunk was intriguing for a minute but I never bought it, it did not sound to me nor seem of God, you can just tell when a word is of God via the Holy Spirit. Now, you might not be GIVEN the understanding of WHO the Anti-Christ is/where he is from etc. etc. but you can and should ALWAYS KNOW if something is not of God or not. So I have always had that down pat, because I try the spirits, but that is DIFFERENT than connecting to God's TRUTHS. My point was, 5 or 6 years ago I learned what HINDERED US from gaining these TRUTHS. It was simple, we THINK we know it all, thus we CAN NEVER LEARN.

As young Christians we always ASKED God while reading the Gospels, Old Testament etc. etc. and we could FEEL God's presence teaching our yearning heart. With the Book of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc. etc. it was over our heads as young Christians so instead of simply ASKING God, we read books {from men} ASKED MEN what this meant and that meant etc. etc. My first foray into Eschatology now seems to have been reading the Late Great Planet Earth, great book, but much of it was way off in reality. 

My point is not to denigrate others, but to point out, WE ALL got our info in the wrong manner, which is why the whole world is stuck via Eschatology, with 100's of interpretations of this and that. Satan loves a divided Church. So I did what God was leading me to do when the Holy Spirit answered my question of where we went wrong.....He said, "you guys can't get it Ron because you ALREADY KNOW IT ALL" !! 

So, from that point on about 5 or 6 years ago, I lost all my preconceived notions on Eschatology and decided to REREAD it all and to simply ASK God what things meant when I came upon something, and guess what IT WORKS. God showed me everything. It doesn't make me better, it just makes this a STATEMENT OF FACT, Only God can teach us His truths and ONLY if we submit.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

That's just not true, the Seals are opened and its announced the Lamb's Wrath has come. The quote you cite FILLS UP all of God's Wrath on mankind, or QUENCHES God's Wrath. You are looking at it and its like a 3D Picture, you see something that is not there, though it appears to be there.

Only at the 6th seal. 

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Rev. 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Preparation for the Bowl Judgments
Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another great and awe-inspiring sign in heaven: seven angels with the seven last plagues, for with them, God’s wrath will be completed.

This is vials not seals or trumpets. And it's not the end of wrath that came before, since it's not possible for there to be wrath before as wrath only begins at the 7th trump, it's perform and fulfill. 

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I meant the Vials are just the last of the Trumps in that the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe which is the 7th Trumpet. 

I don't disagree.

5 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

The Wrath of God is shown in the Seal as coming with the DOTL sign of Joel 2......that is what the first Four Trumps are. We are told those who hide are doing so to try and be shed of the Lambs Wrath. 

Only at the 7th trump. The 6th seal is the fear of impending wrath, which is the Joel 1 after the A of D, with the day of the Lord described in Joel 2 which parallels the 6th seal and Matt 24:29.

I'm of the mind the first 4 trumps coincide with seals 2-4. Mainly the 3rd as trumps 1-4 are going to reduce food production by 1/3 and remove 1/3 of the fresh water and shorten the day impeding the growth of plant life. All form a vast crisis of severe famine, hence the 3rd rider and no doubt the need for global rationing which will be one prompt for people to accept the mark of the beast. 

The mechanism that brings that about could be a meteor or a couple of nukes.

 

6 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

My first foray into Eschatology now seems to have been reading the Late Great Planet Earth, great book, but much of it was way off in reality. 

Same here. Not only Lindsey, but Chick and Van Impe, some LaHaye. No matter where one turned it was all pretrib. The doctrine flies in the face of the whole body of evidence of scripture. There will be a rapture/gathering. But it will be only one and it will not be pretrib.

[not an echo]

On 5/11/2020 at 5:39 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/10/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

Interestingly, it is quite evident that some land is going to lay desolate after the sounding of the the first four trumpets.  Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, aren't you even seeing a convergence of Rev. 11:18 with Rev. 6:17 because of the same use of the phrase "wrath is come"?  What then is your own difficulty seeing the destruction stemming from the trumpets as being part of the wrath of God?  From another angle, are you seeing the seven vials of wrath as representing all the wrath that God has?  Diaste, in all honesty, I can't help but be reminded of Paul's instruction to Timothy that he charge some "that they strive not about words to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).

Of course. The two references are the foundation of the argument. The problem is wrath would begin twice if seals, trump and bowls are strictly chronological. In looking at the verb 'is come' it's the same word in both instances; erchomai, which is an arrival. It's literally 'I come to and go from' in relation to and in proximity of the other events and conditions occurring. If there was anyway it could be shown this arrival was before, or previous and ongoing, I could accept your proposition. Alas, no such idea exists. There is circumstantial evidence as well: The last trump, the 3rd Rider, Joel 1, etc.

Hello Diaste,

My desire would certainly be to be able to agree rather than to disagree, but I am unable.  As I see it, there is a quite natural flow in the chronology of The Revelation as I have put it forth.  The statement of those left behind, "For the great day of His wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17) is very true.  It (and the celestial phenomena that occurs at this time) is in perfect harmony with Joel's prophecy quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:20).  What the people are calling "the great day of His wrath,"  Joel calls "that great and notable day of the Lord" (Acts 2:20), or "the great and the terrible day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31).  Concerning this day, the cry of those left behind, "and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:17) also parallels with Joel's words, "and who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11).  By definition, the Day of the Lord is a period of destruction and wrath (Isa. 13:6, 9).  So, when destruction follows the beginning of this period (e.g., with the sounding of the trumpets), as I see it, we can rightly interpret this as some of the wrath of God.  I am not sure what else it could be called.  What would you call it?  As I have stated, I see this time of the Day of the Lord as being a time of wrath, wrath, and more wrath, with lulls, kind of like with a hurricane.  A difference with the seven vials is that there will be no lulls, or not of any significance anyway.

Concerning your position that none of God's wrath begins until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet---and by this, making a hard connection with the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet---makes for a lot more problems than it solves, if I am understanding you correctly.  Where would you have the 5th Trumpet being sounded in relation to the seals?  Are you not seeing this trumpet of "woe" (Rev. 9:1-12) as being some of God's wrath?  And, similarly with the 6th Trumpet of "woe" (Rev. 9:13-11:14).  Whatever you are seeing with the 6th Seal/7th Trumpet, something must be done with the 5th and 6th Trumpets, not to mention the first four, which I certainly see as also being some of the wrath of God.  I was asked a little bit back about providing a chart of how I see things, which I did.  Maybe I could understand a little better what you are seeing if I saw a chart of it.  Have you ever worked up a chart, and if so, could you post it, or direct me to where you have provided it before.

From another angle, I am seeing the Day of the Lord as being a period of time, that begins when the 7th Seal is opened.  Very importantly, I see this as occurring the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, which makes the cry of those left behind true indeed (Rev. 6:17).   Of course, I also see this period of time as including the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath---when it's time.  One thing I have tried to figure from what you have said, is just when you are actually seeing the wrath of God beginning in relation to what you have said concerning Revelation 11:18?  Are you seeing the 1st Vial of God's wrath being poured out immediately after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

On 5/11/2020 at 5:39 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/10/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

Interestingly, it is quite evident that some land is going to lay desolate after the sounding of the the first four trumpets.  Also, if I'm understanding you correctly, aren't you even seeing a convergence of Rev. 11:18 with Rev. 6:17 because of the same use of the phrase "wrath is come"?  What then is your own difficulty seeing the destruction stemming from the trumpets as being part of the wrath of God?  From another angle, are you seeing the seven vials of wrath as representing all the wrath that God has?  Diaste, in all honesty, I can't help but be reminded of Paul's instruction to Timothy that he charge some "that they strive not about words to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).

The attempt to shame to shut me down will fall on deaf ears. I do not respect the pretrib doctrine in any way. It has no merit and is a doctrine to be opposed as it has no scriptural support.

I see this shaming tactic quite often when discussing the timing of the Lord's return and the gathering and it's usually employed when my opposite has nothing else. If you like I could go though a few hundred previous posts and give many examples. So let's stick to the facts. 

Diaste, I can only hope and pray that you will believe me that I have not meant anything to be a "shaming tactic."  I have seen some of this myself and I can understand (somewhat) your reading this possibility into my reply.  As I see it, the difficulty with the position that you are taking (if I am understanding you correctly) is such, that I am just not able to see what is the "profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  To me, much more is lost.  And, I know that you are probably thinking similarly (if not altogether!) the same thing about my positions!  As I have said before, you may not be able to see what I am seeing at all, till you have seen it all.  Likewise for me concerning what you are seeing.  Do you have a thread that shows more completely how you see things?

I do believe that I can safely say that we will not be able to see things similarly until what we are seeing rests on the same foundation, and that foundation for me is the first three verses of The Revelation.  I don't believe I have yet seen your comments on this.

On 5/11/2020 at 5:39 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/10/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

Consider all the arsenal of the United States military.  If our battleships begin to shell a rogue nation, the inhabitants of that land could rightly say, "The wrath of the United States is come."  Later, if during a news broadcast, we see that our military has rained cruise missiles upon that land, we could as appropriately say, "The wrath of the United States is come."  And then, even later, if we dropped 7 nuclear bombs on that land, a more full impact of our nation's wrath would be realized.  But, even then, the full extent of our wrath capabilities would not be known.  I have tried to see where you are coming from, and I do to an extent.  I hope you are seeing where I am coming from.

As inapt an analogy as there is. Rhetoric won't work. I appreciate the effort 'to see where I am coming from' but it's not necessary. It's not me, it's what is clearly written.

I started out to write something here (concerning the first sentence of your reply), but I decided not to.  I believe I understand.   Annnyway, I never have had much of a liking for the word "Rhetoric."  To me, it's not even a good sounding word!  But, I do like what it is defined as:  "the art of effective or persuasive speaking or writing, especially the use of figures of speech and other compositional techniques."  I'm thinking, Jesus was a master at this!  I love examples, illustrations, parables, and the like, and have often been able to see more clearly when such is incorporated into a message or a forum reply.  And, if it is best termed as rhetoric (in your eyes), I guess I come by it honest, as our Lord was known to use it from time to time, and I think of myself as being a disciple of His.  Of course, a most important thing with any illustration or parable is that it is true to truth.  It is good when using examples to always be mindful of the proverb, "The legs of the lame are not equal:  so is a parable in the mouth of fools" (Pro. 26:7).  

On 5/11/2020 at 5:39 AM, Diaste said:

On 5/10/2020 at 11:51 PM, not an echo said:

I do hope you will look afresh at what I am seeing concerning the chronological order of The Revelation.  As I see things, it is going to be found to hold.

It's not that I don't see, I do. From the 70's and before we had Lindsey, Van Impe, Chick, and a host of others advocating pretrib. It's what I learned and I read a great deal about it. It was the dominant idea at the time and continues to be. Upon examination, shame on me for verifying their words, I found inconsistencies and noticed many things were assumed. Over the years as I kept at the study and examination I came to the conclusion pretrib is built on a single false premise governing the entire doctrine;

The 70th week is equivalent to the wrath of God.

No evidence for the premise and the doctrine is ignorant of the evidence against and employs rhetoric instead of fact, e.g., "It's such a horrible time it has to be the wrath of God."

I find that to be logically untenable and outside the facts contained in the scriptures.

Though I was raised under the tutelage of the common pre-trib rapture view (and my dad really liked Jack Van Impe), I too, by and by, saw what I felt to be inconsistencies of this view with Scripture.  There was a time in my life that I ditched everything that I had been taught, and took personal responsibility for what was written in The Bible for myself.  I found that much of what I had been taught was right, but I came away feeling differently about some things.  Concerning the common pre-trib view, I see things pretty well totally different than what I had read or was taught.  I do still believe in the bottom line of that view, that the rapture will occur pre-trib, or pre-Daniel's 70th Week.  I also still believe in the imminency of Christ's return, and that it will be in two parts, or phases.  But, about everything else, I see totally differently.  I do not see "The 70th week is equivalent to the wrath of God" as they do, but I do see the seven vials of His wrath being poured out nearer the end of that seven year period.  A very big difference in how I am seeing things is the following:  I don't believe the seals have anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but rather the era of the Church, of which we are a part.  I see the rapture as happening with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Further, I also don't see the first five trumpets as having anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but what will happen towards a stage reset for Daniel's 70th Week.  I don't see Daniel's 70th Week beginning until after the "little book" is seen "open" in Rev. 10.  More specifically, I don't see any evidence of Daniel's 70th Week actually having begun until Rev. 11:1-3, during the time of the 6th Trumpet period.  I see II Thess. 2:4 as being a little bit of a commentary, if you will, on Rev. 11:1---something I think everyone needs to look at closer.  I believe by these few comments that you can see that I am seeing things somewhat differently than those who hold to the common pre-trib view.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

My desire would certainly be to be able to agree rather than to disagree, but I am unable.  As I see it, there is a quite natural flow in the chronology of The Revelation as I have put it forth.  The statement of those left behind, "For the great day of His wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17) is very true.  It (and the celestial phenomena that occurs at this time) is in perfect harmony with Joel's prophecy quoted by Peter on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:20).  What the people are calling "the great day of His wrath,"  Joel calls "that great and notable day of the Lord" (Acts 2:20), or "the great and the terrible day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31).  Concerning this day, the cry of those left behind, "and who shall be able to stand" (Rev. 6:17) also parallels with Joel's words, "and who can abide it?" (Joel 2:11).  By definition, the Day of the Lord is a period of destruction and wrath (Isa. 13:6, 9).  So, when destruction follows the beginning of this period (e.g., with the sounding of the trumpets), as I see it, we can rightly interpret this as some of the wrath of God.  I am not sure what else it could be called.  What would you call it?  As I have stated, I see this time of the Day of the Lord as being a time of wrath, wrath, and more wrath, with lulls, kind of like with a hurricane.  A difference with the seven vials is that there will be no lulls, or not of any significance anyway.

Concerning your position that none of God's wrath begins until the sounding of the 7th Trumpet---and by this, making a hard connection with the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet---makes for a lot more problems than it solves, if I am understanding you correctly.  Where would you have the 5th Trumpet being sounded in relation to the seals?  Are you not seeing this trumpet of "woe" (Rev. 9:1-12) as being some of God's wrath?  And, similarly with the 6th Trumpet of "woe" (Rev. 9:13-11:14).  Whatever you are seeing with the 6th Seal/7th Trumpet, something must be done with the 5th and 6th Trumpets, not to mention the first four, which I certainly see as also being some of the wrath of God.  I was asked a little bit back about providing a chart of how I see things, which I did.  Maybe I could understand a little better what you are seeing if I saw a chart of it.  Have you ever worked up a chart, and if so, could you post it, or direct me to where you have provided it before.

The issue is one of: What is wrath? I'm going to get into that other than to say; when the scripture says wrath has come, or wrath is about to fall, or wrath is executed, that's wrath. Since none of the seals or trumps are called wrath or even implied, I cannot interpret them to be wrath. And since it is quite clear there is a time when wrath is come and the vials are labeled as the wrath of God, this presents clear evidence of what and where wrath occurs and also refutes all other claims.

I agree that the 5th and 6th are pretty terrible but just because they are does not mean God's wrath is released. Every time the wrath of God is released the object of that wrath is destroyed utterly.

In the 5th and 6th trump it's not that way. One prepares an army that kills a third of mankind and the other is a plague.  

"Now the rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the works of their hands. They did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone, and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk. Furthermore, they did not repent of their murder, sorcery, sexual immorality, and theft."

Both the 5th and 6th trump are goads toward repentance. So both can seamlessly fit in to the last half of the week before the 6th seal and 7th trump. And the big thing? They are not labeled as God's wrath. 

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

From another angle, I am seeing the Day of the Lord as being a period of time, that begins when the 7th Seal is opened.  Very importantly, I see this as occurring the same day that the 6th Seal is opened, which makes the cry of those left behind true indeed (Rev. 6:17).   Of course, I also see this period of time as including the pouring out of the seven vials of God's wrath---when it's time.  One thing I have tried to figure from what you have said, is just when you are actually seeing the wrath of God beginning in relation to what you have said concerning Revelation 11:18?  Are you seeing the 1st Vial of God's wrath being poured out immediately after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

Immediately or a half an hour, or whatever, I don't know. The point is unless wrath begins twice then Revelation isn't strictly chronological concerning the 7's. And it can't be strictly chronological. If every mention of 42 months or 1260 was chronological it adds up to more than 7 years. That means in this case it's not a strict chronology.

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

I do believe that I can safely say that we will not be able to see things similarly until what we are seeing rests on the same foundation, and that foundation for me is the first three verses of The Revelation.  I don't believe I have yet seen your comments on this.

Sure. There is a lot in those 3 verses. What do you mean specifically?

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

A very big difference in how I am seeing things is the following:  I don't believe the seals have anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but rather the era of the Church, of which we are a part.  I see the rapture as happening with the opening of the 6th Seal.  Further, I also don't see the first five trumpets as having anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but what will happen towards a stage reset for Daniel's 70th Week.  I don't see Daniel's 70th Week beginning until after the "little book" is seen "open" in Rev. 10.  More specifically, I don't see any evidence of Daniel's 70th Week actually having begun until Rev. 11:1-3, during the time of the 6th Trumpet period.  I see II Thess. 2:4 as being a little bit of a commentary, if you will, on Rev. 11:1---something I think everyone needs to look at closer.  I believe by these few comments that you can see that I am seeing things somewhat differently than those who hold to the common pre-trib view.

I have heard this before: "I don't believe the seals have anything to do with Daniel's 70th Week, but rather the era of the Church, of which we are a part." I see no biblical justification for this. It's great you see it that way but what's the proof? You think Jesus or the Gospel is the rider of the white horse in the 1st seal? 

The 5th seal is 2000+ years of history? The 6th seal? Wrath has come and the people of earth call for avalanches to fall on them? Is this a yearly occurrence? Has it happened even once? And what of the cosmic signs of His coming? Have the heavenly bodies been extinguished?