REVELATION IS NOT ABOUT THE CHURCH

[Michael37]

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Almost all of the original Christian Church was composed of Jews.  Jesus was a Jew. At the return of Christ, the remnant of Israel remaining on earth will look upon Him whom they have pierced as mourn and repent. The Gentile Church has not replaced the Jews as God's chosen people, we have been grafted in.

Yes, thankyou JoeMo. It is that simple. In effect the work of Christ on the Cross to redeem Israel also extended to Gentiles, who when they become Christians also become redeemed Israel with their ingrafting.

Rom 11:22-24
(22)  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off.
(23)  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
(24)  For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

[douge]

23 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Almost all of the original Christian Church was composed of Jews.  Jesus was a Jew. At the return of Christ, the remnant of Israel remaining on earth will look upon Him whom they have pierced as mourn and repent. The Gentile Church has not replaced the Jews as God's chosen people, we have been grafted in.

Correct, except the Gentiles in the church in this dispensation, the body of Christ, have not been grafted in.

Romans 9 through 11 is written about the remnant of Israel, who believed Jesus and the twelve. They believed the gospel of the kingdom, that the kingdom on earth was at hand. Gentiles believed also, they are the ones grafted in.

If the body of Christ is grafted in, we are in trouble because we can be kicked out according to Romans 11:19-21.

[kwikphilly]

1 hour ago, douge said:

On 3/18/2020 at 11:08 AM, JoeMo said:

.

Correct, except the Gentiles in the church in this dispensation, the body of Christ, have not been grafted in.

What? How did you come to that deduction?And Romans 11 is very clear

Quote

²⁰ Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.

Believers are not going to be kicked out ,you can't read one verse out of context to try to make it sound like something it is not...,,"unbelief" does not apply to the Body of Christ,you must BELIEVE to be Born Again

Anyway,nice to meet you                                          With love-in Christ,Kwik

[Dennis1209]

I agree with the OP. The Book of Revelation, or the Apocalypse, the unveiling of Jesus Christ; starts a different dispensation at the conclusion of the age of Grace. The 'age of Grace' or by another name, 'the church age', started instantly at the day of Pentecost. It will end instantly at the Rapture of the church [all believers in Christ]. No where else in the Bible is a special blessing offered to those that read and hear this prophecy and keep those things written in them. No where else in the Bible is there a five fold transmission of God's word; from the Father to the Son, from the Son to the angel, from the angel to John, from John written account to us [Father-Son-angel-John-us]. 

It's not about the church, the church is in Heaven signified by the twenty-four elders. The church is mentioned 19 times in the first three chapters of Revelation. After that, the church is not mentioned or implied again until the end of the book. It readily appears between chapters three and four, the church not mentioned again whatsoever, and the shadow and type of John being called up to Heaven, represents the harpazo has occurred. 

The book is composed of what was, what is, and what will be. Chapter four starts what will be, the time of Jacob's trouble, Daniel's 70th week; the tribulation. Chapter four suddenly drops all mention of the church and switches to Heaven, Israel and the judgments. 

I don't claim I have the correct view of this account, or the rest of the prophecies of Revelation but; it amazes me of how many interpretations have been presented by so many people over the ages? With amillennial, premillennial, pre, mid, post, etc. views? It's like, are we reading the same Bibles?

Edited March 19, 2020 by Dennis1209

[douge]

23 hours ago, kwikphilly said:

What? How did you come to that deduction?And Romans 11 is very clear

Believers are not going to be kicked out ,you can't read one verse out of context to try to make it sound like something it is not...,,"unbelief" does not apply to the Body of Christ,you must BELIEVE to be Born Again

Anyway,nice to meet you                                          With love-in Christ,Kwik

Romans 9 through 11 is about Israel, not the church, the body of Christ.

Romans 9:24 Not only the Jews believed the gospel of the kingdom, and the preaching of Jesus and the twelve, but also Gentiles (Acts 10:45). This was not our gospel of grace. They only believed on the name of Jesus (John 3:18 John 20:31).

Romans 9:27 This is identifying the remnant of Israel as what Paul is talking about. The remnant is the believing Jews and Gentiles who will enter the promised kingdom on earth (Isaiah 2:2-3 Exodus 19:5-6).

Romans 9:30 Those Gentiles had faith, which Israel rejected.

Romans 11:5 At the time Paul was writing, the remnant of Israel, Jew and Gentile, were participants in the church.

Romans 11:11 The believing Gentiles would provoke unbelieving Israel to jealousy.

Romans 11:13 Paul was speaking to the Gentiles, not in the body of Christ, but in the remnant of Israel.

Romans 11:17 The Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of Israel.

Romans 11:20 Unbelieving Israel was broken off the tree. The Gentiles were grafted in by faith

Romans 11:20 The Gentiles could also be broken off branches.

Romans 11:25-27 Israel will be saved.

[douge]

22 hours ago, Sonshine said:

Romans 11:19-21 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁹ Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

²⁰ Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

²¹ For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Greetings, douge....  

In verse 19, that is the reason that the branches were broken off—so that the Gentiles might be grafted in.  In verse 20, Paul is saying that Israel was broken off because of their lack of faith.  Paul is warning the grafted-in Gentiles not to do as Israel had done, but instead to have reverence for Almighty God.  So in verse 21, Paul is telling the Gentiles that God would not hesitate to do the same to them as He had done to Israel if they were to lose faith.

Romans 9 through 11 is about Israel, not the church, the body of Christ. 

Romans 9:24 Not only the Jews believed the gospel of the kingdom, and the preaching of Jesus and the twelve, but also Gentiles (Acts 10:45). This was not our gospel of grace. They only believed on the name of Jesus (John 3:18 John 20:31).

Romans 9:27 This is identifying the remnant of Israel as what Paul is talking about. The remnant is the believing Jews and Gentiles who will enter the promised kingdom on earth (Isaiah 2:2-3 Exodus 19:5-6).

Romans 9:30 Those Gentiles had faith, which Israel rejected.

Romans 11:5 At the time Paul was writing, the remnant of Israel, Jew and Gentile, were participants in the church.

Romans 11:11 The believing Gentiles would provoke unbelieving Israel to jealousy.

Romans 11:13 Paul was speaking to the Gentiles, not in the body of Christ, but in the remnant of Israel.

Romans 11:17 The Gentiles were grafted into the remnant of Israel.

Romans 11:20 Unbelieving Israel was broken off the tree. The Gentiles were grafted in by faith

Romans 11:20 The Gentiles could also be broken off branches. 

Romans 11:25-27 Israel will be saved.

[kwikphilly]

Quote

Greetings, douge....  

In verse 19, that is the reason that the branches were broken off—so that the Gentiles might be grafted in.  In verse 20, Paul is saying that Israel was broken off because of their lack of faith.  Paul is warning the grafted-in Gentiles not to do as Israel had done, but instead to have reverence for Almighty God.  So in verse 21, Paul is telling the Gentiles that God would not hesitate to do the same to them as He had done to Israel if they were to lose faith.

Blessings Sonshine.....Exactly ny point ...but of course we must know that Believers can't be "kicked out"......maybe I just have no idea what everyone is going on about ,lol- it;s pretty black & white

   Nice to see you again SS                                     With love-in Christ<Kwik

[OneLight]

@douge - After reading a lot of your threads and posts, I find myself wondering where you see the Gentile believers fitting into scripture, as you have claimed just about all the NT so far is not about the church. 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

How long Oh Lord, holy and true, dost thou not avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev. 6:10

And I beheld when He had opened the sixth seal..

The stars of they sky fell to the ground...

and the sky rolled back as a scroll..

all people hid themselves in caves and rocks...

For the great day of the Lord has come.  Rev 6:12-17.

 

The first coming of Christ was the beginning of the end of the world.

Revelation 5:5; After the resurrection and ascension of Christ, He opened the first seal, starting the white horse period of time.

The climax of the white horse period of time was the Napoleon era.

The climax of the red horse period of time was ww2 and the cold war era.

The climax of the black horse period of time is clearly underway.

The climax of the grey horse period of time is the anti-Christ's period of time; Death personified.

Revelation 6:9-11 is then a request for the day of the Lord.

Revelation 6:12-17 then clearly describes the day of the Lord as prophesied in other places. [Isaiah 2:19, Joel 2:10-11, 31. Matthew 24:29-31]

 

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations an tribes and peoples, and languages,

stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palm branches in their hands.

-------

Revelation then tells the same story over again repeatedly, giving different details each time, and using different visions,

but telling the same general story over again.

 Everything intertwines but that the same general story is being repeated is clear due to Rev 9:11, 11:7, and 17:8 and the things noted above.

-------

Let us be glad and rejoice and give honor to Christ: for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready. [Matt 25:1-13]

And to her was granted that she should be dressed in fine linen clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.

And I John saw the sky opened and behold a white horse; and He that sat on it was called faithful and true.

    All the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. Matt 24:30

    And He shall send forth His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones; from the four winds. Matt 24:31

    Come from the four winds, Oh breath of life, and breath upon these slain, that they may live. Ezekiel 37:9  [1 Thess 4:16-17 'to meet the Lord in the air']

    And they stood upon their feet an exceedingly great army. Ezekiel 37:10

    For behold the Lord comes with 10,000's of His saints to do doom upon all flesh.  Jude 1:14-15 [Psalm 58:10]

And the armies which were in the sky followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen. 

 

Revelation 19:7-14

[Michael37]

7 hours ago, douge said:

Romans 11:20 The Gentiles could also be broken off branches. 

Some points to note here, douge, if you will ...

Rom 11:13-24
(13)  For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

1. Paul is speaking to Gentiles in the body of Christ, the ekklesia which is being built on the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone. 

(14)  If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

2. Paul wants to provoke his fellow-Jews into accepting Christ as their Messiah instead of rejecting Him as the chief cornerstone. 

(15)  For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

3. Paul teaches the proper perspective the believing Gentiles are to have towards the unbelieving Jews, for whom salvation is still available.

(16)  For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
(17)  And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
(18)  Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you.
(19)  You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

4. Paul advises the believing Gentiles to avoid boasting because of their ingrafting to the household of God and the cutting off of unbelieving Israel.

(20)  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
(21)  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you.

5. Paul gives the reason for anyone being cut off from His favour and expelled from His household, that reason being UNBELIEF.

(22)  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shalt be cut off.

6. Paul gives warning of God's severe treatment of those, whether Jew or Gentile, who discontinue in His goodness (which leads to repentance, Rom 2:4).

(23)  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
(24)  For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

7. Paul announces that the way is still open for Israel to repent of unbelief, to accept Christ as their Messiah, and to be included once more in God's favour as members of His household, this time along with believing Gentiles.

There is no need for anyone to get twitchy about ingrafted Gentiles "losing their salvation" and being cut-off from the good olive tree, because the only reason branches are cut-off is because of UNBELIEF, and God who foreknows all things, only choses the faithful to remain in Him. You can't lose what you never had.

Blessings from Michael37