Parable of the Fig Tree

[The Light]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

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If I'm not mistaken the double rapture scenario has been around since I first heard it from Hal Lindsay and Jack Chick.

Haven't heard the name Jack Chick in years.

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There was always a pre trib rapture then at some point the ones who turned to the Lord in the "Tribulation Period" would also be taken; if I remember correctly that would have been right before the battle of Armageddon. Of course they didn't call it Prewrath then,

Yes but what they are saying is nothing like what I am saying. They think the Church will be taken pre trib and those left behind get a second chance. In other words, it's all about the Gentiles.

I think that there is a pretrib rapture of the Church where the wise virgins get raptured. To me, the foolish virgins have the door closed. I don't think they get a second chance, I think they receive strong delusion and believe the lie. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in I believe God turns His attention to the Jews across the earth. I believe that their blindness is removed, and that they get raptured in a prewrath rapture. I think that the 144,000 first fruits guarantee this harvest. I think the nation of Israel is the part that is still blind and enters the wrath of God in a place of protection.

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as much as memory serves, as the pretrib doctrine demands all of the "Tribulation Period" is God's wrath.

What you say is correct. I however, believe in a pretrib rapture but believe that none of the tribulation is in Gods wrath. I believe that immediately after the tribulation of those days Jesus returns for the gathering from heaven and earth and THEN the wrath of God begins. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath. How those that believe in a pretrib rapture and yet have the Church going through the wrath of God is beyond my powers of reason. If God says we are not appointed to wrath, that means that we will not go through the wrath of God.

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Lindsay in particular was a proponent of 'parousia' as the arrival and continued presence of Royalty manifesting at the pretrib rapture and continuing all through the week.

The 70th week of Daniel is over before the wrath of God begins. We can prove this with the scriptures. There is no doubt. The Word is clear on this, and yet many fail to accept EXACTLY what the word says.

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You don't view Matt 24:30-31 as the second coming? If it's not, then just what is happening in Matt 24:30-31?

No, I do not view Matt 24:30-31 as the second coming. There is nothing in the verses before or after that show anything to do with the armies of God, Armageddon, or kingdom set up etc, etc. What we do see is talk of the gathering by the angels. What we do see is a rapture event (one taken, one left).

Matt 24:

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This part of Matthew is Jesus telling us what will happen in the gathering when He sends His angels to gather His elect from heaven and earth. See the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. That's the same EXACT thing that John is telling us in Rev 6 at the 6th seal. This tells that wrath is going to begin. So if we recognize that these two events agree (sixth seal, Matt 24 29-31, we can tell that wrath is going to happen in Matt 24. When does it happen? Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days. That is why the Word says WHEN THEY SAY PEACE AND SAFETY, SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMES. In other words, they say peace and safety after the tribulation is over only to find out that the wrath of God is beginning.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

¹³ And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

¹⁴ And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

¹⁵ And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

¹⁶ And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

¹⁷ For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is the same EXACT event that you see at the end of Rev 14. Jesus comes for the gathering and we see the wrath of God BEGIN.

Rev 14

¹⁴ And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

¹⁵ And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

¹⁶ And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

¹⁷ And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

¹⁸ And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

¹⁹ And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

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And we still have the two raptures which I do not find, try as I might, looking every time a person brings it up and provides an explanation for why it is, and never finding it.

You never find it? Are you supposed to know exactly where it is? What does the Word say?

Matt 24

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Why should you be surprised if you cannot put your finger on the timing? The Lord tells you He will come in an hour that you think not. In other words, it is not going to stick out like a sore thumb where you can say, OH, I SEE WHEN HE IS COMING. No, it's going to be a SECRET COMING.
 

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The problem I run into is Matt 24. A rapture is described in detail in Matt 24 and it includes timing in relation to events.

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute, YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. He tells us exactly when He is coming

Matt 24

³³ So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mark 13

²⁹ So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

That's the kicker Brother. The GOODMAN, the Church, will not know when He is coming. He is coming in an hour that you think not. He is coming BEFORE the 70th week of Daniel. That's really all we know. How do we know that? We know that because part of Israel will be able to see when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11

²⁵ For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It is the Jews that go through the tribulation. It is the time of JACOBS TROUBLE, when God keeps His promise to the Jews. The nation of Israel itself will not have it's blindness removed at this time. They go through the wrath of God in a place of protection.

It is the 12 tribes that are across the earth, the seed of the woman, that see all these things come to pass and are told to look up their redemption draws nigh. The Jew will know exactly when He is coming as they will see all theses things come to pass. That day, the day of His wrath, will not take them unaware.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by The Light

[Zemke]

8 hours ago, Diaste said:

"And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.  And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

From this I don't see how we get to Israel and repentance. And it seems a bit harsh if that were the case as the fig was withered and dead, never to bear fruit. I know that is not the plan for His people Israel, of which you and I are a part.

It could be Jesus was drawing on Jeremiah 8, which I'll write out. But I think the disconnect comes from dispensational thinking that the fig tree is specifically speaking of the Jews. which it is in the sense of them being Gods people. The problem with dispensational thinking is the inability to recognize by extension that we are Gods people and the cursing of the fig tree has as much to do with the state of the church as we approach and are consumed into Babylon the Great.

If we want to know what Gods people will be like before Babylon the Great, we only need to read what Gods people were like before Babylon. We actually are like that now. And what is going on with ecumenism in the church, Isaiah stating, "My people are filled with influences from the east."  and the ramblings of the world is the cry that Babylon is coming and is.

I believe the mistake we have made in the west is not so much having a separate study of prophecy but keeping it separate. I believe the coming of the Lord is infused through all of scripture. And speaking of infusion, we are grafted into the people of God. 

Anyway here is the verse from Jeremiah 8, it needs read in the whole of coarse.

13: "I will surely snatch them away," declares the LORD; "There will be no grapes on the vine, and no figs on the tree, and the leaf shall wither; and what I have given them shall pass away."

The word is just as active today as it was in the day it was written. Jesus spoke of faith in the cursing of the fig tree and it was the same for the Jews in the Old Covenant as it is in the New. 

Now I'm not sure how much this may have to do with further understanding the fig tree in Matthew 24 but this thread has certainly got me thinking about a few things.

 

 

[The Light]

11 hours ago, Diaste said:

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The problem I run into is Matt 24. A rapture is described in detail in Matt 24 and it includes timing in relation to events. 2 Thess 2 does the same; timing in relation to events. Anywhere else in scripture when we find details about the rapture there is no timing in relation to other events, just a description of the fact of the event. This leads me to conclude there is one and only one gathering

And yet in Matt 24 we are told EXACTLY when He will come. When you see these things come to pass, it is at the doors. Then He turns around and says that He is coming in an hour that you think not. That has to get your attention.

There is only one gathering, but there is more than one rapture. One is for the fullness of the Gentiles and one is for the 12 tribes across the earth (not the nation of Israel, as they go through the wrath of God. One rapture it is like the days of Noah and one like the Days of Lot. One rapture, the Lord himself comes and one rapture He sends His angels. One rapture is SECRET and one all eyes will see the coming of the Lord.

When Paul describes the coming of Jesus why not say "of the time and season, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you. Instead he says of the times and seasons.

1st Thes 5

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

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This leads me to conclude there is one and only one gathering and it occurs after the A of D as stated by both Jesus and Paul

The gathering does occur after the A of D. But most think that the A of D happens in the middle of the week, but the Word says it happens at the end of the week. That causes them to put believers in Gods wrath. Since we know that we are not appointed to wrath any timeline that has the Church running around in the wrath of God is wrong.

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I don't think it odd those two verses exist. What are you seeing? 

I just have always found it quite odd that in one place Jesus is saying, summer in near then he says pray that you flight is not in winter. The summer is near quote is for the GOODMAN that will not know when He is coming. The winter quote is for those in the nation of Isreal that flee the A of D and the great tribulation.

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One thing I reject is the relation to the old Jewish traditions of holidays and seasons. Even if the Lord had given these things as times and remembrances to the ancient Jews there is no longer any connection to them and the reality of faith, salvation and immortality nor end of the age prophecy. If that were the case then Jesus would have said so. Certainly one of the apostles would have brought it up. Paul cautions about the traditions of men overriding the truth of the Word and the faith of God.

I think you are wrong here. Maybe sometime if you have some free study time you should do a little research. One thing I would like to mention is that most people teach that the spring feasts have been fullfilled and they are looking for the Church to be raptured on the Feast of Trumpets. Actually, Pentecost is a harvest feast and no harvest has occurred so Pentecost is an unfulfilled spring feast.

 

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And why doesn't Revelation align with Matt 24, and by implication Mark 13 and Luke 21? I can find the parallels. It's a whole other discussion however

Revelation does line up perfectly with Matt 24. However, most people that believe in a pretribulation rapture think that Matt 24 is the second coming which completely screws up everything. The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is a rapture as you well know and is not the second coming.

And you're right, it is another discussion.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by The Light

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Sons of God is US. All Israel is US as well. We are all the seed of Abraham and there is NOT ANY distinctions. We rule and reign with Christ and 'all Israel will be saved' is an 'already but not yet' type of phrase. Israel was Ya's portion and the royal priesthood that was supposed to intercede for all nations at their regathering from the Babel scattering. To some (little) extent this worked, yet the 'royal priesthood' is the description of all believers now. The apostle is very firm that there is NO distinction since Pentecost.

No distinction in the Body of Christ, however God`s overall purposes still stand for - The Body of Christ, for Israel and for the nations.

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Diaste said:

"And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots.  And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive [them], and ye shall have [them]. And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."

From this I don't see how we get to Israel and repentance. And it seems a bit harsh if that were the case as the fig was withered and dead, never to bear fruit. I know that is not the plan for His people Israel, of which you and I are a part.

Now the Lord was not just giving the disciples a lesson on `faith in God.` Jesus knew it was not time for the figs and so cursing the tree would be silly. However, Jesus was referring to Israel needing to repent and accept Him as their Messiah. They refused, as Jesus knew, but He still had to seek that repentance. Israel could not say that He did not give them an opportunity to repent.

Then the mountain of unbelief that Israel as a nation has will be cast away when the Lord opens their eyes on His return. (Zech. 12: 10 - 14)

To make this just about `faith in God` by Jesus` example of cursing a tree for not having fruit out of season is ridiculous. The `out of season` is that it was not Israel`s time to repent though of course they should have. 

[Diaste]

 

14 hours ago, The Light said:

What you say is correct. I however, believe in a pretrib rapture but believe that none of the tribulation is in Gods wrath. I believe that immediately after the tribulation of those days Jesus returns for the gathering from heaven and earth and THEN the wrath of God begins. None of Gods people are appointed to wrath. How those that believe in a pretrib rapture and yet have the Church going through the wrath of God is beyond my powers of reason. If God says we are not appointed to wrath, that means that we will not go through the wrath of God.

Excellent. Pretrib has always demanded some must go through the wrath of God. Most every advocate fails to answer when I bring this up. And I have brought it up, dozens of times. You are correct, not one single believer in Jesus will go through God's wrath. 

14 hours ago, The Light said:

The 70th week of Daniel is over before the wrath of God begins. We can prove this with the scriptures. There is no doubt. The Word is clear on this, and yet many fail to accept EXACTLY what the word says.

No. Great tribulation ends and wrath begins  within the same allotted span of 42 months. The time of GT ends short of the full 42 months at the very end when the gathering occurs and God's wrath falls on the rebels.

15 hours ago, The Light said:

No, I do not view Matt 24:30-31 as the second coming. There is nothing in the verses before or after that show anything to do with the armies of God, Armageddon, or kingdom set up etc, etc. What we do see is talk of the gathering by the angels. What we do see is a rapture event (one taken, one left).

Matt 24:

²⁹ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This part of Matthew is Jesus telling us what will happen in the gathering when He sends His angels to gather His elect from heaven and earth. See the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. That's the same EXACT thing that John is telling us in Rev 6 at the 6th seal. This tells that wrath is going to begin. So if we recognize that these two events agree (sixth seal, Matt 24 29-31, we can tell that wrath is going to happen in Matt 24. When does it happen? Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days. That is why the Word says WHEN THEY SAY PEACE AND SAFETY, SUDDEN DESTRUCTION COMES. In other words, they say peace and safety after the tribulation is over only to find out that the wrath of God is beginning.

 

Okay, this is certainly Jesus coming as the passage you quoted contains this, "and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." If the tribes of earth mourn and then 'they shall see' Jesus, this is clearly a coming of Jesus. And since it's the first recorded appearance of Jesus to all the tribes of earth, in their sight, it's the 2nd coming.

15 hours ago, The Light said:

You never find it? Are you supposed to know exactly where it is? What does the Word say?

Matt 24

⁴² Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

⁴⁴ Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Why should you be surprised if you cannot put your finger on the timing? The Lord tells you He will come in an hour that you think not. In other words, it is not going to stick out like a sore thumb where you can say, OH, I SEE WHEN HE IS COMING. No, it's going to be a SECRET COMING.

One can rationalize these concepts in many ways I suppose. The problem is the false premise of secrecy. Nothing in this, or any other passage of scripture, speaks to a secret coming. Even the analogy of goodman and the thief does not speak to secrecy, it speaks to being watchful and ready.

This could come at any time and the scriptures do not demand the 2nd coming happens at any certain moment, in order to come like a thief. 

And we have to be watchful for something. If it's a complete secret we can never be watchful for we would see nothing. 

But Paul and Jesus do say when the 2nd coming occurs: after the A of D and before wrath begins, at the 7th Trump.

15 hours ago, The Light said:

That's the kicker Brother. The GOODMAN, the Church, will not know when He is coming. He is coming in an hour that you think not. He is coming BEFORE the 70th week of Daniel. That's really all we know. How do we know that? We know that because part of Israel will be able to see when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

No. "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

We are not surprised by the day of His coming. Imminence is a fallacy. The day only comes like a thief to those in darkness hence, the analogy of the goodman and thief is one of watchfullness and readiness, not one of ignorance.
 

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, The Light said:

And yet in Matt 24 we are told EXACTLY when He will come. When you see these things come to pass, it is at the doors. Then He turns around and says that He is coming in an hour that you think not. That has to get your attention.

There is only one gathering, but there is more than one rapture. One is for the fullness of the Gentiles and one is for the 12 tribes across the earth (not the nation of Israel, as they go through the wrath of God. One rapture it is like the days of Noah and one like the Days of Lot. One rapture, the Lord himself comes and one rapture He sends His angels. One rapture is SECRET and one all eyes will see the coming of the Lord.

When Paul describes the coming of Jesus why not say "of the time and season, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you. Instead he says of the times and seasons.

1st Thes 5

But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

It looks like you are trying to have it 4 or 5 different ways here. Even if it is near it does not mean it must occur at any certain time. Pretrib demands it occur 'before'; this is making a demand on the moment, that it must occur at a certain time, 'before'. If it comes at a time when 'you think not' then Pretrib is wrong as the doctrine demands a time 'when you think so'.

And again, "But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief." Only those in darkness will be surprised.

That is exactly what I am saying. Matt 24 is the only evidence we have of the coming of the Lord and it is after the A of D and after GT. There is no evidence of a prior coming complete with timing. It's simply made up.And even though we know the order of things and the timing in relation to other events, we still do not know the exact moment; even as we will be able to understand the general time of His coming and our gathering.

12 hours ago, The Light said:

Revelation does line up perfectly with Matt 24. However, most people that believe in a pretribulation rapture think that Matt 24 is the second coming which completely screws up everything. The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 is a rapture as you well know and is not the second coming.

And you're right, it is another discussion.

It is the 2nd coming.

"“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. "

Seriously? You don't see that the people SEE Jesus coming? And have said more than once this parallels Rev 6.

 

I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

15Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us ^f from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17For the great day of their ^g wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

If their wrath has come then Jesus must be bringing that wrath, therefore He is present. Jesus uses both parousia and erchomai in this discourse to describe His coming. Parousia is literally 'the presence of royalty' and erchomai means 'to come from one place to go to another'. In plain language Jesus has left heaven to come to earth and is present in royal capacity, and for good.

13 hours ago, The Light said:

I think you are wrong here. Maybe sometime if you have some free study time you should do a little research. One thing I would like to mention is that most people teach that the spring feasts have been fullfilled and they are looking for the Church to be raptured on the Feast of Trumpets. Actually, Pentecost is a harvest feast and no harvest has occurred so Pentecost is an unfulfilled spring feast.

Maybe, but I have my doubts. Traditions of men mean nothing when it comes to prophecy. Tabernacles is the only holy day in the Kingdom that I can find. No other. 

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Now the Lord was not just giving the disciples a lesson on `faith in God.` Jesus knew it was not time for the figs and so cursing the tree would be silly. However, Jesus was referring to Israel needing to repent and accept Him as their Messiah. They refused, as Jesus knew, but He still had to seek that repentance. Israel could not say that He did not give them an opportunity to repent.

Then the mountain of unbelief that Israel as a nation has will be cast away when the Lord opens their eyes on His return. (Zech. 12: 10 - 14)

To make this just about `faith in God` by Jesus` example of cursing a tree for not having fruit out of season is ridiculous. The `out of season` is that it was not Israel`s time to repent though of course they should have. 

You mean except for the fact that is exactly what Jesus explained when asked. Jesus didn't liken it to anything other than faith and the extent of the power available if one walks in faith. I for one cannot add an idea that doesn't appear in the text. 

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

You mean except for the fact that is exactly what Jesus explained when asked. Jesus didn't liken it to anything other than faith and the extent of the power available if one walks in faith. I for one cannot add an idea that doesn't appear in the text. 

As one preacher said: his mother's "Methodist bible" had a center column note for verse 22 that said, "have the God kind of faith." Jesus had just demonstrated the God kind of faith: the kind of faith that speaks and KNOWS what He says must come to pass! And above that, He speaks to CAUSE something to come to pass.  Many translations put it as "Have the faith OF God." There may be some hidden second meaning, but his written purpose was to teach them HOW to walk in faith. All three verses fit together, 22, 23, and 24. One preacher I knew started out nearly every message with these verses.  How many believers today actually SPEAK or SAY for the express purpose of bringing something to pass? How many believers actually believe they can have what they say? 

I'm with you on this, Diaste.

Edited April 13, 2020 by iamlamad

[The Light]

On 4/12/2020 at 8:41 AM, iamlamad said:

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Considering the Jews and other descendants of Jacob, can we find TWO harvests? Let's see: we find the 144,000 as the firstfruits.

The 144,000 are first fruits. They are NOT a harvest.

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But then there MUST be the general harvest of the rest of the Old Testament saints. I believe their resurrection is at the 7th vial with that worst of all earthquake. So we find "doors:" two harvests of the descendants of Jacob without every considering the church.

Here is your earthquake at the six seal. This is the second harvest. The first is the Church raptured pre trib.

Rev 6

¹² And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

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By the way: good point on the plural "doors."

Thanks