The Fifth Seal and the Cry of the Martyrs

[not an echo]

In the last several days, I've started threads having to do with the opening of the first four seals and the going forth of the four horsemen.  This thread will be like the fifth installment of this little series of threads, if you will.  For the one who may have not seen the prior threads, according to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place from his perspective of time (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he was called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in Heaven in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of that Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of this book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and things that were/are slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).  In other words, the seals of this book represent what will be taking place leading up to what is contained within the book.

In harmony with Scripture, and repeatedly testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals as early as late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the Christian era (also known as the Church Age).  As it has always been, Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  As revealed in The Revelation, these liberties are carried out by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals.  Moreover, these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of the Christian era even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  A survey of history will reveal (to the discerning eye) that they have left quite a trail.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-11).  From a worldwide and historical perspective, these things of which Jesus warned have characterized every century of the Christian era.  With this thread, I would like to continue further and look a little closer at the opening of the 5th Seal and the cry of the martyrs.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

  9   And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the Word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

 10   And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 11   And white robes were given unto every one of them;  and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Jesus had warned His disciples (and by extension, all of His followers) concerning martyrdom when He spoke to them on the Mount of Olives.  Consider from Matthew 24:

  9   Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you:  and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

With the opening of the 5th Seal, John sees the souls of those who have been martyred and hears a statement made to them concerning more that are to be martyred at some future time.  Immediately noteworthy is how what John here sees relates to the previous seal.  This helps to show us that the 4th Seal does indeed concern martyrdom.  And this, with other evidences, reinforces that these seals belong to the era of the Church and are something other than judgments of God upon the wicked.  History abundantly testifies to the martyrdom that has occurred since the time of Christ.  And, with the nature of martyrdom and its attending persecution, it is certainly not difficult to imagine such a longing for justice.

But, there is also a very telling clue here as to when in the Christian era this cry for justice will occur.  The wording of the martyr's question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood" reflects that a significant period of time has transpired leading up to the opening of this seal---time that can certainly be accounted for now.  When the 5th Seal is opened and the martyrs cry out, they are assured that it will be "yet for a little season," and this because that more are to be killed "as they were."  This fits a 5th Seal opening closer to the time of the pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture, especially in light of the martyrdom that will occur during the 70th Week (a little season), which will begin not long afterwards.  This supports that as the time of the rapture draws nearer, so will the fulfillment of what John here sees, meaning this cry for justice may have already occurred.  In other words, the 5th Seal may already be open too---and my position would be that it is.

As far as those who will actually be martyred during the little season of Daniel's 70th Week, John is later shown concerning these also:  Of the two witnesses, in Revelation 11:12;  of the 144,000, in Revelation 14:1-5;  and of those who refuse allegiance to the Antichrist, in Revelation 15:1-4.

Interestingly, in The Revelation, John is shown all of the household of God ultimately safe in glory with God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ:  Those of the Old Testament days in Revelation 5:8-10 (consider that!), those of the New Testament days (up unto the rapture of the Church) in Revelation 7:9-17, and the gleanings, those shown in the prior paragraph above.  Of course, all of God's children together are a part of the "first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5-6).

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

These threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have.  Following is a link to my master thread, where more information and a running list of my other threads can be found that pertain to this interpretation: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo
to reset illustration

[R. Hartono]

There are two groups of separate people in heaven :

1. The great multitude in living bodies (consist of the resurrected and the living)

2. The soul under the altar which come one by one as beheading of martyrs happen in the Great Tribulation.

The number of great multitude is fixed and the number of the souls under the altar was awaiting their fellows.

The Great Multitude is not yet taken now as the rapture has not yet happen.

[The Light]

On 4/7/2020 at 6:59 PM, not an echo said:

In the last several days, I've started threads having to do with the opening of the first four seals and the going forth of the four horsemen.  This thread will be like the fifth installment of this little series of threads, if you will.  For the one who may have not seen the prior threads, according to the opening verses of The Revelation, it is quite evident that John was shown things that were "at hand" to begin to take place from his perspective of time (Rev. 1:1-3).  The Revelation is his record of what he saw, and he was told to send this, with specific messages, to the seven churches that were in Asia (Rev. 1:10-11), which he did (Rev. 2-3).  Just before he was shown what would be taking place, he was called up "in the spirit" to Heaven and allowed to behold God on His throne (Rev. 4).  John then tells of a book he saw in God's right hand, which was sealed with seven seals, and of an event that takes place in Heaven in which the Lamb (Jesus Christ) alone is found worthy to have charge of it (Rev. 5).  The beginning of what was about to start taking place related to the opening of the seals of that Seven Sealed Book, a book that could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD.  The seals of this book pertain to the post-apostolic era of the Church and things that were/are slated to take place before the Day of the Lord will begin (Rev. 6-7).  In other words, the seals of this book represent what will be taking place leading up to what is contained within the book.

In harmony with Scripture, and repeatedly testified to by history, Christ opened the first four seals as early as late in the first century, granting to Satan the certain liberties that he (Satan) has been given to continue the plying of his craft into and during the Christian era (also known as the Church Age).  As it has always been, Satan would have absolutely no liberties otherwise.  As revealed in The Revelation, these liberties are carried out by his henchmen, the four horsemen of the first four seals.  Moreover, these horsemen have been riding down through the corridors of the Christian era even unto our day, doing just what they have been insatiably bent on doing.  A survey of history will reveal (to the discerning eye) that they have left quite a trail.  Their activity is responsible for the things Jesus warned of in the opening of His Olivet Discourse (e.g., Matt. 24:4-11).  From a worldwide and historical perspective, these things of which Jesus warned have characterized every century of the Christian era.  With this thread, I would like to continue further and look a little closer at the opening of the 5th Seal and the cry of the martyrs.  Consider, from Revelation 6:

  9   And when He had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

                                                                                                        https://worthychristianforumscore-h45go6maxh5rpepgu.netdna-ssl.com/uploads/monthly_2020_04/858540819_picture10blackonwhite.png.770519e365b2a1e22529fb3bf98d56fc.png

 10   And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 11   And white robes were given unto every one of them;  and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

With the opening of the 5th Seal, John sees the souls of those who have been martyred and hears a statement made to them concerning more that are to be martyred at some future time.  Immediately noteworthy is how what J0hn here sees relates to the previous seal.  This helps to show us that the 4th Seal does indeed concern martyrdom.  And this, with other evidences, reinforces that these seals belong to the era of the Church and are something other than judgments of God upon the wicked.  History abundantly testifies to the martyrdom that has occurred since the time of Christ.  And, with the nature of martyrdom and its attending persecution, it is certainly not difficult to imagine such a longing for justice.

But, there is also a very telling clue here as to when in the Christian era this cry for justice will occur.  The wording of the martyr's question, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood" reflects that a significant period of time has transpired leading up to the opening of this seal---time that can certainly be accounted for now.  When the 5th Seal is opened and the martyrs cry out, they are assured that it will be "yet for a little season," and this because that more are to be killed "as they were."  This fits a 5th Seal opening closer to the time of the pre-Daniel's 70th Week rapture, especially in light of the martyrdom that will occur during that time (a little season), which will begin not long afterwards.  This supports that as the rapture draws nearer, so will the fulfillment of what John here sees, meaning this cry for justice may have already occurred.  In other words, the 5th Seal may already be open too.

As far as those who will actually be martyred during the little season of Daniel's 70th Week, John is later shown concerning these also:  Of the two witnesses, in Revelation 11:12;  of the 144,000, in Revelation 14:1-5;  and of those who refuse allegiance to the Antichrist, in Revelation 15:1-4.

Interestingly, in The Revelation, John is shown all of the household of God ultimately safe in glory with God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ:  Those of the Old Testament days in Revelation 5:8-10 (consider that!), those of the New Testament days (up unto the rapture of the Church) in Revelation 7:9-17, and the gleanings, those shown in the prior paragraph above.  Of course, all of God's children together are a part of the "first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5-6).

 

Following are threads that I have concerning the other seals:

The First Seal and the Horseman on the White Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250674-the-first-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-white-horse/).

The Second Seal and the Horseman on the Red Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250725-the-second-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-red-horse/).

The Third Seal and the Horseman on the Black Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250748-the-third-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-black-horse/).

The Fourth Seal and the Horseman on the Pale Horse (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/250832-the-fourth-seal-and-the-horseman-on-the-pale-horse/).

Also, these threads concern A Totally Different Pre-Daniel's 70th Week Rapture Interpretation that I have, where information concerning the other seals can be found.  Here is that link: (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/253935-a-totally-different-pre-daniels-70th-week-rapture-interpretation/).

 

Bother. None of the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel when God turns His attention to His Chosen, after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Daniel 9

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24 are the 1st 4 seals of Revelation.

Matthew 24

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Do you not see wars and rumors of wars with Russia and China? Do you not see the beginning of famines with some store shelves empty, shortages, and supply chain problems? Do you not see pestilences beginning to come to pass with the plan-demic of Covid and now monkey pox fears? Soon the pretrib rapture will happen and then the rider on the white horse, the seventh king will make His entrance.

We can escape all these things that will come to pass and stand before the son of man. How can we escape ALL THESE THINGS if the seals are already open?

Luke 21

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

[The Light]

On 4/16/2020 at 5:03 AM, R. Hartono said:

There are two groups of separate people in heaven :

1. The great multitude in living bodies (consist of the resurrected and the living)

2. The soul under the altar which come one by one as beheading of martyrs happen in the Great Tribulation.

The number of great multitude is fixed and the number of the souls under the altar was awaiting their fellows.

The Great Multitude is not yet taken now as the rapture has not yet happen.

The great multitude you seen in Rev 7 will include the souls of the 5th seal.

[Diaste]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:59 PM, not an echo said:

"How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood" reflects that a significant period of time has transpired leading up to the opening of this seal---time that can certainly be accounted for now. 

You can't know how much time has passed here. That's gap filling. There's missing info and you make an assumption the time passed must be significant when there is nothing in the language to suggest any length of time.

"How long..." is 'heós pote'. Literally "Till when..." It's not time it's condition or event. So much end of the age prophecy is arranged by succession of events and ordered within existing conditions or coming conditions. Time is not a factor unless it's evident in the language, e.g., 1260 days, 70 weeks, from the going forth of the command to rebuild the Temple, yet 120 years, and so forth.

heós: till, until
Usage: (a) conj: until, (b) prep: as far as, up to, as much as, until."

pote: when?

Usage: when, at what time.

This "Till when..?" is answered not with a time factor but a condition:

"until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled."

No such language suggests a time period or the passage of any length of time. Why was the question answered with a condition that must exist rather than a length of time? Because time is not the factor. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Diaste]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:59 PM, not an echo said:

Interestingly, in The Revelation, John is shown all of the household of God ultimately safe in glory with God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ:  Those of the Old Testament days in Revelation 5:8-10 (consider that!), those of the New Testament days (up unto the rapture of the Church) in Revelation 7:9-17, and the gleanings, those shown in the prior paragraph above.

 

 

"

After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:

“Salvation to our God,

who sits on the throne,

and to the Lamb!”

11And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. And they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

13Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 

The GT after the A of D is the only possibility for the origin of the multitude in white robes.

John didn't know who they were or where they came from. The white robed multitude was a mystery to John as John replied to the elder, “Sir,” I answered, “you know.” It seems if the throng dressed in white was all believers from all time John could have known that. He did not. You say you know. But even John didn't know. 

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." Rev 15

This group standing on the sea of glass, "had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name" is quite similar to the first. GT is the very test of the beast and the mark, and the image, and the number of his name.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." Rev 20

 Here it is only a specific group, "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" that lived and reigned with Christ for a millennia. Not a group that didn't face the beast or the great pressure of the image, the mark and the number. It is not proof of a pretrib rapture. It is proof of a reward for strong faith in Jesus, even to death.

The ones on the sea of glass are this same group as in Rev 20. 

On 4/7/2020 at 5:59 PM, not an echo said:

  Of course, all of God's children together are a part of the "first resurrection" (Rev. 20:5-6).

So then this is hope, not reality. The ones of the primary resurrection are the ones, 

"beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" not 2000 years of the supposed, non-existent, never mentioned fantasy of a 'church age'.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Diaste

[Diaste]

On 4/7/2020 at 5:59 PM, not an echo said:

With the opening of the 5th Seal, John sees the souls of those who have been martyred and hears a statement made to them concerning more that are to be martyred at some future time.

Hmm...

The most conservative figures for Christian martyrdom is about 7-8000 die for their faith every year. That is an average of 20 a day.

From your stated belief you see every martyr of the church age as being the ones under the altar at the 5th seal. 

Then the above quote says 'martyred at a future time'. So the ones martyred from the conversation at the 5th seal to the 'future time' aren't church age martyrs? God's like, "No, no, not you, these future ones." But then God is okay with the martyrs from before the 5th seal conversation?

He doesn't like the ones from this point, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" till that undetermined future? They aren't martyrs? 

 

[abcdef]

The 5th seal martyrs are all souls from the resurrection of Jesus in 33 AD, exclusively.

The 144000, the multitude, 24 elders, those who reign for 1000 years, Rev 15, are exclusively OT saints from the 1st resurrection in 33 AD.

There are no souls from the Pentecost gospel kingdom of Israel/(church) 33 AD-2022 AD.

(There is no resur/rapt shown in Rev 4:1, John is the only one taken through the door, literally.)

------

The 5th seal souls were killed by those in power before 33 AD. They were living during the time of Caesar worship mark of the beast and Rome. The iron of Dan. 2, and the 4th beast of Dan. 7.

The martyrs seem to have been betrayed by fellow Jews during the Roman occupation of Israel beginning in 63 BC. The reason this seems likely is because the answer to their prayers to God is the 6th seal destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD ish. 

One time of trouble began when Rome invaded. This was the beginning of the iron in Dan. 2 and the 4th beast of Dan. 7. This is one, time of trouble. 

For example, another time of trouble, time period, would be the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD ish. Another time of trouble would be the great scattering after 70 AD. 

There are several different times of trouble.

------

After the destruction of 70 ish Jerusalem, the people of Israel were scattered into the gentile nations fulfilling Dan. 12:7, and allowing the sealed book to be opened, the seventh seal to be broken.

The seven seals, 5th seal, were all broken and the book opened in front of John by Jesus in the 90 AD ish time period.

------

[Keras]

The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation are undoubtedly a sequence of events, as the Scroll is opened, unrolled and read.  It is patently obvious that the first five Seals have been opened, perhaps as John looked on, at His Ascension.  All the martyred saints from then until Jesus Returns, still await their vindication. Revelation 6:9-11

Next to come is the world changer: the Sixth Seal, the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. That literal Day will be a sudden and shocking worldwide fiery devastation. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Rev 6:12-17.

Millions will die, but all those true believers in the Creator God and who call out to Jesus, their Saviour and Redeemer – will be protected. Joel 3:32, Proverbs 3:25-26, Acts 2:21