The Two Phases of Christ's Return

[Eddy Crocker]

13 minutes ago, Diaste said:

So all the prophecies about Jesus being born a virgin, where he was to be born, His journey to the cross, His resurrection, etc., should not be interpreted literally?

Seems like spiritualization is just a crutch.

I love how I’m taken out of context to try prove your own point. Read and post all of what I said not in isolated bits and pieces otherwise your twist the context of what I wrote. 
The context of how I wrote it was I said scripture doesn’t contradict itself if it does then that means our interpretation of it is wrong. 
My context was in a reply to someone saying every eye shall see him of whom they pierced. Theres 2 other verses I quoted saying the Kingdom of God cometh without observation. The other verse I quoted was the Lord is coming as a thief in the night. 
You have 2 opposing verses that contradict another verse  seeing with physical eyes themselves. If interpreted literally or physically. 
A thief is not seen until it’s too late but you don’t see the thief. Also the kingdom doesn’t come with an observation. That’s what scripture says. How can all these scriptures not contradict themselves unless they are interpreted as spiritual eyes and not literal eyes. I didn’t say all of scripture shouldn’t be interpreted literally of the history of his life. Only scripture that contradicts itself I don’t interpret literally.

[Eddy Crocker]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Eddy, the 7 year 70th week is found in Revelation 11 and again in Revelation 12.

 

In Revelation 11...

Revelation 11:3-7 + Revelation 11:8-11 + Revelation 11:2

1260 days + the 3 1/2 days + the 42 months (1256.5 days) = the seven years

 

In Revelation 12...

Revelation 12:6 + Revelation 12:7-9 + Revelation 12:10-17

1260 days + the war in the second heaven time + the time, times, half time = the seven years



 

 

Yes you are right but this has already happened in A.D 40 1/2 when the Gentiles were grafted in and recieved the Holy Spirit.  The two witnesses in Revelation are Moses and Elijah.

Malachi 4:5 

⁵ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
 

Moses and Elijah were seen on the mount of transfiguration. In....

Matthew 17 

Moses and Elijah Appear with Jesus

17 After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John (the brother of James) and led them up a high mountain where they could be alone.

² Jesus’ appearance changed in front of them. His face became as bright as the sun and his clothes as white as light. ³ Suddenly, Moses and Elijah appeared to them and were talking with Jesus.

Jesus says my word shall be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses. You have Moses a witness from the law and you have Elijah being a witness from the prophets and Jesus being the third witness which is the confirmation of the two.

This meaning he was the fulfillment of what was instituted in the law and prophets. Moses was a symbol of being drawn out of the water That’s what his name literally means. Elijah  Was taken up in a chariot of fire. 
Moses is showing how the water is being turned into wine or fire which is a symbolic of Spirit. Remember it says the children of Isreal were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea but they didn’t get wet.

Moses was also baptized in the name of God at the burning bush experience. John the Baptist is symbolic of Moses because he also baptized with water as well. 
John says I indeed baptize with water but the one that cometh after me shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. John also is showing how the water is being changed into wine.

At the day of Pentecost the water is turned into wine for the Jews. This is why Peter says in 

Acts 2:15-16

¹⁵ These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! ¹⁶ No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

The two witnesses in Revelation 11:3 are prophesying of the Gentiles being grafted in and receiving the Holy Spirit with the need of no physical water to baptize them. This is Evidenced by Moses as a witness of being drawn out of the water and him baptizing Israelites by the cloud and in the sea but remember they walked on dry ground.

Acts 10:44-47 

⁴⁴ While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

⁴⁵ And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

⁴⁶ For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

⁴⁷ Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
This shows how those of Circumcision were wondering why these Gentiles received the Holy Spirit without being baptized. Peter calls for water and later has the same vision three times which makes him relise in....,

Acts 11:15-16 King James Version (KJV)

¹⁵ And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

¹⁶ Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit brings back to his remembrance after he has the vision 3 times and finally sees that the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit without the aid of water but by the preaching of the gospel which is the water of the word. John says we are clean by the word that I have spoken unto you.

Baptism in the New Testament is coming from the water to the wine of the Spirit by immersing people in the gospel of how Christ died, was buried and rose again, This is the fulfillment of what the 2 witnesses brought in to the Gentiles 7 years after the day of Pentecost.

[not an echo]

On 4/17/2020 at 8:42 PM, Marilyn C said:

On 4/16/2020 at 10:08 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Marilyn C (and all),

According to the account, Jesus was not talking to Israel, but to His disciples, the pillars of His Church---

Hi not an echo,

The 12 disciples are NOT in the Body of Christ!

How did you come to this conclusion?

[not an echo]

On 4/19/2020 at 4:24 AM, Diaste said:

On 4/17/2020 at 11:48 PM, not an echo said:

 

For all the rest left behind on Israel's side of the earth, many possibilities exist.  Many will be in or near the land of Israel, but others will be at the far reaches of its hemisphere.  Those who are outside and not facing in His direction at the instant of His appearance may not get the same glimpse of Him as those who are.  It's not hard to imagine everyone that sees His brightness having to shield and shut their eyes, and opening their eyes, He may already be gone!  Some will be inside at the time and may only see the flash of brightness in conjunction with everything else that will happen.  Outside of the 144,000, there's no telling how many will get a glimpse of Him but won't survive all that will happen long enough to tell about it.  Of those missing, some will be gone who were known to be Christians, along with some who were not know to be.  On the other hand, of those left behind, there will be those who were thought to be Christians, but were not---those who were merely religious but lost.

Meanwhile, on our side of the earth, in our hemisphere, those who are left behind will be left shaking their heads---in my thinking, as commonly depicted---left to experience the aftermath of the opening of the 6th Seal and what will happen once the 7th Seal is opened, which will happen the same day.  For those in Israel's hemisphere, however, things will be somewhat different, for we can only imagine what the sign appearance of Christ will be like, even if it's but a glimpse.  But, Jesus and John give us a little insight---Jesus, in Luke's account of His Olivet Discourse (Lk. 21:25-27), and John, in his account of the 6th Seal (Rev. 6:15-17).

 

"Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn over him. So it is to be. Amen."

There is a lot more to this than you propose. EVERY EYE will see Him. 

And even those who pierced Him? So those who nailed Him to the cross and the one who speared Him are alive till He returns? Or they will be resurrected at His return? 

The earth is depicted in scripture set on a foundation. Pretty sure the world's idea on...everything that matters...is incorrect.

Divine prophecies mixed with pseudo-science and a heap of rhetoric do leave an impression.

Diaste, I would have thought that you would know that I agree that EVERY EYE will see Christ at His Second Advent (Rev. 1:7).  Absolutely!!!   I believe our difference is that you are of the post-trib persuasion and I am of the pre-trib persuasion (howbeit, not according to the common view).  The reason for my "heap of rhetoric"  is to more fully clarify how I am seeing things, for I have never seen this put forth in the web world or in print.  Kinda the reason for my avatar, not an echo.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Eddy Crocker]

8 minutes ago, not an echo said:

Diaste, I would have thought that you would know that I agree that EVERY EYE will see Christ at His second coming  (Rev. 1:7).  Absolutely!!!   I believe our difference is that you are of the post-trib persuasion and I am of the pre-trib persuasion (howbeit, not according to the common view).  The reason for my "heap of rhetoric"  is to more fully clarify how I am seeing things, for I have never seen this put forth in the web world or in print.  Kinda the reason for my avatar, not an echo.

His coming is in like manner as you see him go in like manner he will return. Like manner or likeness doesn’t mean the same as. 
Hebrews 12:1 talks about the saints (sons) as a great cloud of witnesses. His coming is in a great cloud of witnesses and I’m one of those witnesses speaking the truth of his coming which I’m living in now.

Its the Spirit of the Antichrist that passes the buck to a future moment as we are waiting for it as though it hasn’t happened yet.

1 John 4:3  3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. If we are not confessing Jesus is come in the flesh is the spirit of the Antichrist. It doesn’t say Jesus has come or he is coming in the future. But it says is come. IS COME is a present reality. So if your not confessing a present reality then your manifesting this spirit that blinds your eyes to see it as a present reality that already is and has happened. Its only future to those whose eyes are blinded by that spirit. This is why it takes a death to the Adamic nature in order to see and to experience the Coming of the Lord which is the Holy Spirit on the day appointed by the father our own personal day of Pentecost when we are risen in him in Heavenly places.

[not an echo]

 

On 4/19/2020 at 9:38 PM, Eddy Crocker said:

On 4/19/2020 at 9:11 PM, not an echo said:

Diaste, I would have thought that you would know that I agree that EVERY EYE will see Christ at His Second Advent (Rev. 1:7).  Absolutely!!!   I believe our difference is that you are of the post-trib persuasion and I am of the pre-trib persuasion (howbeit, not according to the common view).  The reason for my "heap of rhetoric"  is to more fully clarify how I am seeing things, for I have never seen this put forth in the web world or in print.  Kinda the reason for my avatar, not an echo.

His coming is in like manner as you see him go in like manner he will return. Like manner or likeness doesn’t mean the same as. 
Hebrews 12:1 talks about the saints (sons) as a great cloud of witnesses. His coming is in a great cloud of witnesses and I’m one of those witnesses speaking the truth of his coming which I’m living in now.

Its the Spirit of the Antichrist that passes the buck to a future moment as we are waiting for it as though it hasn’t happened yet.

1 John 4:3  3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. If we are not confessing Jesus is come in the flesh is the spirit of the Antichrist. It doesn’t say Jesus has come or he is coming in the future. But it says is come. IS COME is a present reality. So if your not confessing a present reality then your manifesting this spirit that blinds your eyes to see it as a present reality that already is and has happened. Its only future to those whose eyes are blinded by that spirit. This is why it takes a death to the Adamic nature in order to see and to experience the Coming of the Lord which is the Holy Spirit on the day appointed by the father our own personal day of Pentecost when we are risen in him in Heavenly places.

Eddy, if I am understanding you correctly, your post would mean that you are believing that what Paul wrote of in I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and what John wrote of in Revelation 19:11-16 has already occurred?  Not sure, but I am getting the impression that this is what you are saying.  Forgive me if I am mistaken.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 4/19/2020 at 4:23 PM, Uriah said:

On 4/19/2020 at 2:48 PM, not an echo said:

Uriah, this is not merely an "example of man's reasoning."  It is an illustration based solidly upon Scripture.  The same as Jesus used earthly stories to teach us spiritual truths (parables), we, as his followers, often do the same.  We just call them illustrations.  Important to remain mindful of is this:  Even a poor illustration that is in harmony with Scripture must be regarded above an accepted interpretation that is not.

A little sidebar:  I love reinforcing that Jesus never has stopped speaking in parables.  When we walk with Him, as His first disciples did, we will find that He always has something to teach us, by using examples from the world around us.

If I am understanding you correctly, you see the rapture as occurring in conjunction (some way) with Christ's return for the Battle of Armageddon.  If this is so, your interpretation is in serious conflict with Scripture and the very examples of it that you are using.  As I see it, for the rapture to not occur until this late in The Revelation would be tantamount to Noah not getting aboard the ark until the 40th day of rain.  Similarly with Lot and his daughters, only with them, it would have been raining "fire and brimstone."

not an echo,

There is no conflict at all, (with the exception of the pre trib teeaching) the words of Jesus speak for themselves.... "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone"

"until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all"

An illustration is a good thing , if it is accurate.

But Uriah, Jesus says some things more.  Concerning the days of Noah, He said "they did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day..." (Lk. 17:27).  And concerning the days of Lot, He said, "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot;  they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded..." (Lk. 17:28).  I cannot even imagine that this is descriptive of what the state of affairs will be in the world on the day Christ returns for the Battle of Armageddon.  Or, on the day prior. Or the month prior, or the year prior!

Jesus' words concerning how it was in the days of Noah and Lot are way more descriptive of what the state of affairs is in our world presently, on any given day.  The day before the flood started, things were typical of the days, weeks, months, and years prior.  The day before Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed, things were typical of the days, weeks, months, and years prior.  People were going about their normal day to day activities, not mindful of their pending judgment.  This is the characteristic mentality of the world of our present day---even in the face of the coronavirus pandemic.  Conversely, the mentality of the world at the time preceding the Battle of Armageddon will be that under the leadership of the Antichrist, they might even defeat Christ (Rev. 19:19)!!!  And, this will be after the angels have done began to pour out the vials of the wrath of God!  And, this is not to mention what happens prior to this!  There isn't going to be anything typical about those days.

On the other hand, I do see the rapture occurring "the same day" that the Day of the Lord begins, which is also the same day as the first phase of Christ's return.  Again, Scripture supports that this will happen with the opening of the 6th Seal.  All the prophetic points relating to the rapture converge at this seal.  The signs that occur concurrent with Christ's sign return (Matt. 24:29-30) are here seen.  "All the tribes" (Matt. 24:30) spoken of by Jesus are seen in the 6th Seal interlude (Rev. 7:1-8, esp. vs. 4).  The gathered elect (Matt. 24:31 with II Thess. 2:1) spoken of by both Jesus and Paul are seen in the same 6th Seal interlude (Rev. 7:9-17).  And, that the Church will be raptured just before the beginning of the Day of the Lord is explicitly taught by Paul (I Thess. 4:13-5:11, esp. 5:1-3).  Jesus will come as a "thief" (Matt. 24:42-43ff/suddenly and unexpectedly), concurrent with the beginning of the Day of the Lord, which likewise will come as a "thief" (I Thess. 5:2).  When those left behind at the opening of the 6th Seal cry, "For the great Day of His Wrath is come" (the Day of the Lord), it has indeed, for this same day the 7th Seal will be opened, which will allow the Seven Sealed Book to open, which is all about the Day of the Lord!  I hope that you are at least able to see that what I am seeing is not without foundation.

Edited February 2, 2023 by not an echo

[Marilyn C]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

How did you come to this conclusion?

Hi not an echo.

Thank you for asking and not poo hooing. So we read in Matt. 19: 28 the Lord telling the 12 disciples that they would eventually rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. Then in Rev. 21: 14 we read of the 12 Apostles of the Lamb in the New Jerusalem. All to do with Israel.

Then reading in Acts we see that the 12 Apostles were special in that they had walked with the Lord, had witnessed of His life, death, resurrection and ascension. They were to witness to Israel of Jesus being the Lord and Christ. (Acts 1: 22, 2: 36)

Later we read that the ascended Lord gave apostles to build up the Body of Christ. (Eph. 4: 11) And the Apostle Paul was given the revelation of the Body of Christ, which was not known in previous times. (Eph. 3: 1 - 7) Peter found it difficult to understand this and tried to make the Gentile believers conform to Jewish ways. (Gal. 2: 11 - 15) Paul addressed Peter regarding this matter.

Now God has 3 different groups He has purposes for in His great Kingdom - the Body of Christ, Israel & the Nations. Understand who the Lord is talking to and the Bible becomes much clearer.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, not an echo said:

"For the great Day of His Wrath is come" (the Day of the Lord), it has indeed, for this same day the 7th Seal will be opened, which will allow the Seven Sealed Book to open, which is all about the Day of the Lord!  I hope that you are at least able to see that what I am seeing is not without foundation.

Hi not an echo,

Just a helpful point here. The `Day` in Greek is a specific day, BUT also a time period. God uses both. The specific day is when the Lord returns to deliver Israel and bring judgment upon the nations. The time period of the `day` is after the rapture, through the tribulation, and on the last part of the 70th week, & into the millennium, till final the heavens and earth are burnt up as Peter says. (2 Peter 3: 10)

The `thief in the night is for those in darkness, whereas the Body of Christ is told by the Lord in 1 Thess. 5 that we are NOT in darkness that this day (time period) should overtake us as a thief. (1 Thess. 5: 4)

[R. Hartono]

21 hours ago, Diaste said:

No evidence for does not suggest it's false or incorrect, however....

"The armies (strateuma: an expedition, an army, a company of soldiers) of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

"Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? (A standing army in heaven already exists)"

"Behold, the Lord is coming with myriads of His holy ones (hagios: sacred, holy)"

Since angels are ' holy ones' and are already organized as an army, and there around 50-70 thousand mentioned in Matt 26, this idea of angels making up the army has more evidence than an army of translated believers.

 

 

Angels do not live on earth and therefore never fight for the earth for their possession as this earth is made for mankind.

So this is the battle between Jesus and antichrist for the possession of earth with each people followers.