Seeking Guidance on Common Law Marriage

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

Just now, Godismyloveforever said:

Quote to make clear. 

thank you!

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

1 hour ago, Tristen said:

Hi Fem,

You seem somewhat open-minded – so I trust you understand that, from our perspective, the only ideal solution is for you to be reconciled to God through the Gospel of Christ. That way you can both move forward into the destiny God has planned for you both.

Jesus said, “He who is not with Me is against Me” (Matthew 12:30), and that before we become Christians, we are God's “enemies” (see Romans 5:10, Colossians 1:21). Therefore Christians and non-Christians are moving in different spiritual directions. If your partner continues walking towards God and you don't, then eventually you will end up far enough apart that you will separate naturally. And since there is no covenant in-place, there will be no reason for either of you to fight for the failing relationship.

[Please note – I don't say this as a strategy to pressure you into conversion, but rather to help you see what you are asking from our perspective.]

A marriage is a covenant commitment before God; a solid (ideally unbreakable) promise. It is possible to make such a commitment without the formalities (e.g. Adam and Eve had no formal wedding). But from what you say, it seems like your partner doesn't see your current relationship in that light. If he did, this would be a different conversation.

From a practical perspective, a husband's job is to seek the highest well-being of his wife (that is his covenant promise). If you were married, he would be obligated to continually 'push his beliefs' on you - and thereby become a constant source of contention. Furthermore, if you have children, your undermining his beliefs in front of the children may place the eternal welfare of his children in jeopardy.

Therefore, Christians are warned against entering into covenant relationships with non-Christians (2 Corinthians 6:14).

I would encourage you to seek God for yourself (not for your partner, but for you). Ask God to reveal Himself to you and give you faith. If you are sincere and open-minded, I believe you will find God – and then you and your partner can navigate your respective futures with God's guidance. Otherwise I fear the only hope for your future together is that he compromise his faith to accommodate his carnal desire to stay with you – which, from what I have observed, usually results in resentment and relationship instability (James 1:8).

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand and agree that my becoming christian would be the ideal solution for this situation. I read the bible, prayed, consulted with two pastors, read quite a few christian websites and also listened to podcasts.  Jesus does not call me. 

I am grateful that my husband has Christ. When he prays for me, I experience profound peace. I don't want to do anything to compromise or harm his relationship with God.  On the contrary, I recognize that it serves both of us and want to support it. Though the misogyny bothers me, the verse, "for the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its savior" best describes how I feel being with my him. When we are together, it is as if the left side of my brain (masculine,  analytical, linear thinking) downshifts and the right side (intuition, imagination, love) is set free in a way that cannot happen without his presence. 

We both have grown children from previous marriages. We will not have more together. So that is not a concern. 

My husband has the same confusion about the status of our relationship that I do. He wants to wait for me to find Jesus. But I don't think that will happen. 

Perhaps I need to provide a little more context. He was in jail for a year and then suddenly released a week before trial because the charges against him fell apart.  (I feel really vulnerable disclosing this. Before the nightmare we naively believed that being good people and following laws would prevent such things. They don't.)  He was Christian before incarceration but came out if it with the need to make me into one.  

[Tristen]

1 hour ago, FeministWhoLovesABeliever said:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I understand and agree that my becoming christian would be the ideal solution for this situation. ...

Hi Fem,

If you use the quote feature, a notification is given to the person you quoted – so they know you have commented on their post. I use the quote feature – but tend to delete most of larger messages (as above) so the page doesn't get messy. The reply feature just adds to the conversation without sending any notifications.

 

In this recent post, you called your partner your “husband”. So the important question is whether or not he also sees your current relationship as a covenant commitment; i.e. a marriage. Was there a point in time where you made that commitment to each other – because that would clear up a lot of confusion? There is no rule that a marriage needs any formal church or state acknowledgement – though as you are now appreciating, having a public commitment before God and witnesses would circumvent the kind of problems you are dealing with. If he sees you as his wife (like you see him as your “husband”), then the question changes to what a believer should do with an unbelieving spouse.

The Apostle Paul addresses this explicitly in 1 Corinthians 7:12-16;

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

If this best reflects your circumstance, then as the “wife who does not believe”, you now have some responsibility. That is, to realise that his primary goal in life is to see you become a sincere Christian. That is his covenant obligation to you – to first ensure your eternal welfare; i.e. to try and 'push' his beliefs on you. Conversely, he has to deal with the fact that he is married to an unbeliever. He made a promise to you, and is therefore obligated before God to keep it. And you have to decide if you can deal with his Christian expectations for the rest of your life together.

But first you have to figure out if you are married.

If there was a point in time when you made covenant vows/promises to each other, then it would be fair to assume you are married before God (regardless of other witnesses). On the other hand, if it was simply an understanding that developed over time – then that is less clear-cut. Regardless, if an exclusive covenant promise now exists between you, I think God would be inclined to honour your relationship as a marriage – especially if you decide to stick with him, despite his increasing (and probably increasingly irritating) dedication to his faith.

 

[Abrielle]

@FeministWhoLovesABeliever, I am sorry that your partner went through trauma. May he keep himself in the hands of Jesus, who heals and gives us wisdom. Also: Congratulations for 10 years of union. Many Christians didn't make that far, God bless you both.

First i must say: i don't belong to a church, as an institution. I don't recognise any institutional church as an authority to say if i am married or not. If i would got married, i would do it legally and had a private ceremony, with other believers, pray before God and our witnesses to bless that union. I don't know if i am right or not. A few will say that i am wrong, so you should know this before anything.

As long as you aren't an obstacle between God and your partner, it is honourable for him to be a man of his word (and love) with you. But if you decide to leave him, he is free to find a godly woman (and do everything right this time).

Yes, you are one flesh.

No, you cannot be saved by him, salvation is a gift that you accept directly from Jesus Christ. Because God knows your partner and he has a relationship with God, then you are represented by your partner before God, your partner sanctifies your home. I believe this is during your time in this planet, it doesn't apply to eternity. Our love for God starts here, on this Earth, we choose God over all, just like His love for us was demonstrated here too. We go to Heaven out of love and this love goes both ways. (Not choosing God and then spend an eternity with Him would be a positive thing to you?)

No, it is not adultery, because there is no marriage.

You can know Jesus Christ and make that be as simple as knowing who Jesus Christ was during His time on Earth. Everyone started by that but seem to forget this, so they speak to you as if you already had to care about anything other than know what Jesus did on this Earth. I think you will like to learn about the significance of the way He spoke to people (the sick, the tax collectors, women, possessed, ...), how He valued everyone. You will gain from learning the context of that society, to see how spectacular His actions were and why His love was payed with hate. Notice the details, for instance, how even the apostles didn't get why would he want to stop just to know who touched His clothes, in the middle of hundreds of people. Notice how he felt joy and thanked the Father because he was sent to bring truth to the ordinary people ("I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes", Luke 10:21). Jesus Christ spoke to huge crowds, everyone had their own availability to receive truth so he spoke through parables, patient for each person's maturity level and ability to grow in understanding. (When He was in private he was more direct). So, if i can give any advice:

Keep loving your partner and being loved by him. Grow together, if not in faith, in understanding each other with good communication. Know Jesus Christ and don't worry about what will you have to do about the step after the one you are giving. (Sorry for my confusing English. Bad sleep = Worse English than usual.) Praying for you, dear @FeministWhoLovesABeliever.

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

1 minute ago, Tristen said:

5 minutes ago, Tristen said:

But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

 

Tristen, 

First I want to say that I'm really moved that you are taking so much time for me. Thank you. 

I remember the moment when we signed the health insurance documents that promised that we were responsible for one another as being special. There was no single moment when we made a solemn promise to be bound together. But countless times told me that he believed that we were created for one another, that we loved each other before this life and we would after it. 

I never wanted a legal marriage. My take away from my marriage to someone else was a strong aversion to any relationship based on obligation or expectation. What I wanted and found in my relationship with the man that I call my  husband, was the beautiful gift of a making a conscious choice, again and again, through good and bad times, to be together. I often said that commitment to him was larger than [my understanding at the time, of]  marriage. I promised, instead, to spend my life loving and supporting his fulfillment and happiness, even if that meant that, someday, I would need to let him go.

But recently he has articulated what a christian marriage means to him and I find it to be exquisite. That he wants our love to be a covenant with god and that loving and cherishing would be intertwined with his precious relationship to Christ, leaves me feeling both humbled and exalted. It is more than I would have dreamed of hoping for. 

I have spent a good deal of time with 1 Corinthians 7:12-16, perhaps focusing too much on  "the unbelieving wife  is sanctified by the husband" portion of the verse? To me it suggests that it is done. Am I missing something? 

You mention wondering if I want to deal with a lifetime of "christian expectations". I don't know what that means. I've spent a good deal of time studying. Some of what I read and listen to feels not just acceptable but also desirable to me.  Other things are offensive. For example, my submission to this man is not something that I consciously strive to do. It is the natural response to being with a man of great service and integrity who inspires me to be a better person; a man who cherishes me, gives himself up for me, and holds me above anyone else. But if he or you or god were to suggest that I must do so because God commands it, instead of creating it in me and our relationship, I would not hesitate to tell any of you (yes, god also.) to stuff it. 

I am blessed by his increasing dedication to his faith. I am grateful to God for providing him with what I could not, during his incarceration. I can tell when he prays for me, though he does it silently and without telling me, because I feel the weight lift from my shoulders. But, you are right, his insistence that I force myself to believe things that do not make logical or emotional sense to me is really irritating. 

Figuring out if we are married was the purpose of my original post. But if the bible is clear that it would be better for him to not be yoked to me, than perhaps the question of marriage is secondary to my obligation to divorce him. My heart aches to say that. Is there nothing that suggests that his sanctification of an unbeliever could, like a christian marriage, also be fulfilling God's word?   

[FeministWhoLovesABeliever]

2 hours ago, Abrielle said:

@FeministWhoLovesABeliever, I am sorry that your partner went through trauma. May he keep himself in the hands of Jesus, who heals and gives us wisdom. Also: Congratulations for 10 years of union. Many Christians didn't make that far, God bless you both.

Thank you for praying for me <3! Your english is great. I am also writing with not enough sleep. I appreciate you clarifying that being sanctified by marriage to a christian is not the same thing as being saved. Since marriage also binds people after death, what happens to the believer when the unbeliever does not join him in heaven? 

You ask if it would be a positive thing for me to go to heaven without choosing God.  I do choose God. I believe that there is one God but many ways to know and be in relationship with her. (yes. her. I'm willing to meet in the middle and accept a genderless God but not to make myself exclusive to a religion that constrains god to the masculine.) I don't think my particular form of feminism is the same that offends so many conservatives.  While I do advocate for equal rights for women, I do not think that means that men and women are the same but, instead, that we are glorious in our differences. I feel the same way about the different religions. To me, my husband's Christianity is a gift to us and to the world. But so is Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, Catholicism. . . . I will admit to not personally appreciating some religions.  But I do not consider myself or any other person, qualified to judge another's relationship with God. I am not an expert on the different religions. But I love and trust God enough to believe it is not impossible for buddhists to be reincarnated, Christians and Catholics to go to heaven, and Muslims to go to Janna.  If you have made it this far into my perspective, know that, by doing so, you have shown more consideration than many other Christians have extended to me. Thank you. 

Before my husband was incarcerated, I was not interested in or even very respectful towards Christianity. Now I choose to listen to almost exclusively Christian music. I have enjoyed praying to Jesus and was even visited by him once! I am reading the bible and I really enjoy learning more about Christ.  Like you mention, I particularly appreciate his lifting up of those who others considered less worthy. But the bible was written and assembled by men and, as such, is skewed to their perspectives. Here is one example, the King James bible says that we were created to be a help meets for man, a statement that I've seen many Christian writers suggest feminine, gentle support. But the original interpretation, as found on this christian website  says that, in the 21 times that the word is used in the old testament, only twice does it to refer to the first woman. Three times it is used to describe military support, and sixteen times in reference to God as a helper. It goes on to suggest that a better translation of the word would be "opposed support" which reminds me of a beautiful stone arch which is made possible and greater than its components because of opposition. Without which, it would crumble into a pile. 

My understanding is that the bible was written from men's perspectives. It was interpreted by men. And more than 100 years after Christ, a group of men determined Canon by, in part, considering "when we read this, is there an inner sense, from God, that what was written is right and true". I know that I'm not personally qualified to determine Canon. But I'm certain that if women had written, interpreted, and selected it based, in part, on their inner sense about what was right and true, the bible would be very different. I suspect that whoever is still reading thinks that I'm missing the heart of the matter, which is that God sent his only son to save us. But can you also see that it is not reasonable to conclude that the bible depicts everything that is most important about God? Or even, that by excluding women, who were also created in God's image, it likely misses some very important things?

At the very least, I'm guessing you will have come to the same conclusion that I have, which is that there is very little chance that I will ever become a Christian.  But if you have the tenacity to continue to engage with me, I will strive to keep an open mind. 

Edited April 20, 2020 by FeministWhoLovesABeliever

[Justin Adams]

1 hour ago, FeministWhoLovesABeliever said:

 But if you have the tenacity to continue to engage with me, I will strive to keep an open mind. 

Again read Yeshua's attitude towards women. In His day, He did many things against the society's mores, yet He always included women and He went out of His way to minister to them. It was not 'proper' to even talk to women in His day, yet He often did. He had women followers that were His constant companions. Yeshua is God, and God has always had a high regard for His created beings. Just because the patriarchal society was largely ignorant of women and their roles, does NOT mean that God is. The scripture do not condone anything much, they just say it like it was and we later determine what is good based on the Spirit that is within us. Believers are the most prejudiced sometimes and do not see things well from other's perspectives. I wish you well in your endeavor to search out the truth.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Justin Adams

[ladypeartree]

From reading your posts it sounds to me not so much that you don't want/feel you can be a Christian but that you feel belittled by being a woman in a " mans world " and resent it. 

I do understand that feeling but believe me it is NOT God's way to make women "less than " men .( and boy have I had this conversation many many times over the years especially having come from a brethren background where women were required to wear hats and keep quiet lol )  I think it may help you to read your bible keeping in mind the historical context .As Justin says in a time when women were as much a belonging as a cow or a sheep and of less value than many , when a man could and often did have several wives and was not allowed to work outside the home without her husbands approval Jesus showed the way it should be with friends both male and female ( look at Martha Mary and Lazarus ) Women could and did lead the early Christian gatherings The first people that Christ showed himself to when He had risen were not men but women. Most women of that time were uneducated Most men were brought up to understand that they were responsible for defending/protecting/providing for women Most women were brought up to understand they were responsible for the home and the children and they in turn brought up the children to believe the same things ( the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world as it is the person who first teaches a child that has the most influence on their beliefs ) If you can let go of your anger about what you see as inequality and your need to claim an "equal stake " you may be able to see that you are in fact being put FIRST not last by your husband who desperately wants the best for you out of what sounds like a great love you both have for each other You don't sound as far apart as you fear Open your heart and your mind and let God into your life and listen to what He has to say to YOU 

[Debp]

5 hours ago, FeministWhoLovesABeliever said:

my becoming christian would be the ideal solution for this situation. I read the bible, prayed, consulted with two pastors, read quite a few christian websites and also listened to podcasts.  Jesus does not call me. 

Do you believe in Christ as your Savior?   Do you acknowledge that you are in need of a Savior?   If so, Jesus is all you need.   Just pray (talk) to Him from your heart and read the Word as you can.

It might not be that Jesus isn't calling you.   It might be that you are looking at too many websites, etc, rather than at Jesus himself.

 There are many things one might try to do that have nothing to do with your becoming a Christian.   Don't think you need to be a carbon copy of other Christians.    Let the Lord lead you as an individual.     For example, you don't have to listen to every preacher there is...find one who ministers to you.   We all have different personalities.   

Yes, we all do believe in the major teachings of the faith, but in other matters we can sometimes vary in opinions.

[Tristen]

4 hours ago, FeministWhoLovesABeliever said:

Tristen, 

First I want to say that I'm really moved that you are taking so much time for me. Thank you. 

I remember the moment when we signed the health insurance documents that promised that we were responsible for one another as being special. There was no single moment when we made a solemn promise to be bound together. But countless times told me that he believed that we were created for one another, that we loved each other before this life and we would after it. ...

Hi Fem,

Most non-Christians find Christianity highly irritating; even ridiculous. Maybe you are the rare exception.

 

So to summarise my point so far;

If you are married, the question falls under the “If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her” (1 Corinthians 7:12-16) edict. If you are not married, the question falls under the “Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers” edict (2 Corinthians 6:14). God has zero interest in making married people "divorce".

 

Regarding whether or not you are married before God;

Many make vows – only to later break them. So God looks at the heart. You and your partner need to ask yourselves if the marriage promise (to look after each others best interests for the rest of your lives) is in both of your hearts. If it is, I am confident that God would honour your relationship as a marriage.

Consider the circumstance where two atheists marry under state law. God is under no obligation to recognise the state marriage. But if the couple later converts to Christianity, God recognises that they are married because of the promise in their hearts (i.e. they are not expected to separate and remarry as Christians – though many in this situation would choose to publicly reaffirm their commitment before God). God understands that we all come to Him from different circumstances. He is not looking for ways to bring us to ruin.

Whether or not that promise is in each of your hearts is something you have to investigate and consider for yourselves.

 

Regarding submission.

Submission is an act of free-will. One of the main references to this is Ephesians 5. Starting at verse 21 we are told to submit to each other. Then the simple instruction is reiterated to wives. Then the text goes into an explanation of how husbands are to serve their wives; selflessly, self-sacrificially (using Jesus sacrifice as the example). Men and women are different; have different strengths and weaknesses – and therefore different responsibilities. But nowhere does the Bible authorise one person dominating the other in marriage.

Nevertheless, it is worth asking yourself how you would respond if his Christian expectations are “offensive” to you. There are many ideas in Christianity that modern society finds “offensive”. Do you really want to be married to a devout Christian?

 

I also wouldn't right yourself off with regards to finding God. I have seen the staunchest of anti-Christian atheists convert to Christianity. So long as you keep your eyes, ears, mind and heart open, you keep yourself in the game (so-to-speak).