An Awkward Moment in the Pre-tribulationists’ Honeymoon...

[Marilyn C]

30 minutes ago, Michael37 said:

Yes, Marilyn, I appreciate your point and I have the holy angels featuring much as you do, but include the redeemed, saints of God among them.  Several commentators contest the view that the armies of heaven are made up solely of the angels, or indeed of angels at all, and whilst I post their comments it does not necessarily mean I agree totally with all they say but it does show that there is some variance of opinion: ( We Note: It is the Word of God mounted on a white horse that smites the nations and slays the antichrist armies with the sharp sword that proceeds from His mouth Revelation 19:21, and this not apart from those who believe in the Word of God and live according to it.) 

 

Hi Michael,

I only go by God`s word. Though thank you for looking up those views. Always good to check though with God`s word.

I never add to what Jesus said - His holy angels. The angels have ALWAYS been His army through out scripture. eg. Joshua 5: 14

White horse –  `white,` is from Gk. word `leukos,`  meaning light, glory.

                              `horse,` is a symbol for power & strength.  (Ps. 147: 10)

The angels are not riding real horses, it is a symbol of power and glory.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with POWER AND GLORY ...` (Matt. 24: 30 & 31) 

 

[Michael37]

29 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Michael,

I only go by God`s word. Though thank you for looking up those views. Always good to check though with God`s word.

I never add to what Jesus said - His holy angels. The angels have ALWAYS been His army through out scripture. eg. Joshua 5: 14

White horse –  `white,` is from Gk. word `leukos,`  meaning light, glory.

                              `horse,` is a symbol for power & strength.  (Ps. 147: 10)

The angels are not riding real horses, it is a symbol of power and glory.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with POWER AND GLORY ...` (Matt. 24: 30 & 31) 

 

Yes, symbols indeed. The imagery in Revelation reaches phenomenal heights, and the representations speak volumes. In submitting to Christ I am assured of being with Him for eternity, and do indeed take comfort in knowing His saints share in His victory and will ever be with Him when He comes for His own.

1Th 4:16-18  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17)  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18)  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
 

[Revelation Man]

15 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Michael,

I agree that many have `white robes` etc as written in God`s word. And the 144,000 who `follow,` are obedient and not run around the universe etc following after Jesus. It is a picture of their obedience.

Now let us look at who Jesus actually says comes back with Him as His army.

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, & all the HOLY ANGELS with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man .....comes in His own glory, & in His Father`s glory & in the glory of the HOLY ANGELS.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with HIS MIGHTY ANGELS.` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

And how does THE ABOVE FACT change THIS FACT ? Rev. 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. {And we see BELOW who these are that is being spoken of by looking back at verses 7 and 8, Jesus didn't SPECIFY it for no reason, the Saints/Bride of course returns with Jesus, have you ever heard of a Marriage Supper that doosn't include THE BRIDE ? Armageddon is the Marriage Supper.}

Rev. 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So, by your understanding of the way things work, the ABOVE VERSE in Rev. 19 means the Angels are not coming back with Jesus, BUT....Wait a minute, we see in OTHER VERSES elsewhere the Angels do come back with Jesus, BUT....the difference is I follow what the bibles #1 clue unto us on understanding the bible tells us to do, HERE A LITTLE, THERE A LITTLE, line upon line, precept upon precept, the bible was not written by one man, but by men as moved via the Holy Spirit, thus YOUR VERSES and MY VERSES are the Holy Spirits verses and they need to be ADDED TOGETHER, then we can understand clearly, Jesus is coming back to the MARRIAGE SUPPER with the Bride and the Angels at the SAME TIME.

How do we miss these things ? We seemingly don't understand how to put it together at times because we see darkly now....I miss things also, that is why I am continually learning from an ALL INTELLIGENT God. I think the biggest hindrance with mankind is PRIDE. It grates on humans to be wrong. Satan's original sin was PRIDE. God knows it all, so me not knowing just proves I am human. He wants to teach us, we just have to submit. 

[R. Hartono]

On 5/1/2020 at 12:59 PM, NonProfitProphet said:

It’s nice that you finally responded, but nothing you wrote has the least bit to do with the observation I’ve made.

Jesus n the raptured saints will return to take back the world from antichrist who persecute the left behind and to end the  7 years of great tribulation n peace will b restored for brothers n sisters

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

On 5/1/2020 at 7:25 PM, NonProfitProphet said:

The pre-trib doctrine says we will return as an army to kill all the unsaved to avenge God. 

Not true.

[R. Hartono]

On 5/3/2020 at 7:48 AM, Marilyn C said:

Now let us look at who Jesus actually says comes back with Him as His army.

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, & all the HOLY ANGELS with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man .....comes in His own glory, & in His Father`s glory & in the glory of the HOLY ANGELS.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with HIS MIGHTY ANGELS.` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

 

That happens during rapture not at the 2nd coming cause He will sent His angels to gather the elect. Read Mat 24:31 He Will send His angels with loud sound of trumpet n gather His elect from the four winds.

The gathering of the elects by angels is from the earth.

Angels do not fight for the posession of the earth at armageddon, its between mankind. Jesus against antichrist with both armies of men.

Edited May 4, 2020 by R. Hartono

[R. Hartono]

On 4/30/2020 at 11:39 PM, NonProfitProphet said:

imagine telling them that if they don’t accept Christ, you will return some day to kill them. Then take another moment to ask, “Is this really what the Bible teaches?”

Its antichrist who will kill those foolish virgins left behind if they refuse to worship the beast n refuse to rcv the mark of the beast.

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 4/30/2020 at 9:39 AM, NonProfitProphet said:

4. Christ takes His clean and pure wife on a honeymoon trip back to earth to kill people who rejected Him...

    A. Some of these people are relatives, friends, and even fellow church members who fooled us.

    B. This scenario reveals that the clean, pure, innocent bride will be transformed into a killing machine executing God’s wrath and participating in the biggest blood bath of all time. All the while, remaining pure and clean.

Anyone who has seen me comment about eschatology on there forums, knows that I an no pre-tribber, I find the doctrine without Biblical support. I cam across this thread, and I have to concur, that the conclusions you draw about what many if not most pre-tribbers hold, is an accurate representation.

Of course, they would not put it in the same terms, but yes, that is the gist of it. Having just said that, I found myself cringing a bit, reading it as you put it. It gave me some mixed emotions, even though it is basically an apparent criticism of a view that I do not support. It just seemed a bit creepy, that even I would not have been so . . . honest? Brusque, as on member called me once.

I thought about whether or not, I wanted to respond to this thread. As you can see, I am responding. However, it is after I realized something else, that I decided to jump in.

What I realizes is this:

I am a post-trib believer, but that does not get me out of any quandary. As a "postie", I happen to hold that I see the church the same way as you describe, returning with Christ when He does return with the church, and all those things could still hold true. I will be on the Lord's side, His enemies, are my enemies, and having the mind of Christ, I will realize that death to my loved ones, friends, neighbors, and relatives, is just what they deserve.

Before I came to know my savior, and accept Him as Lord, I too deserved that fate. In fact, I STILL deserve that fate! However, I have the privilege of being the recipient of HIs grace, and escaping His justice, because He paid the penalty for my sins.

The character of this war does not change with the timing of the rapture, that aspect is the same, no matter when the resurrection/rapture occurs, but it is an interesting observation.

What it points out, is the urgency, of spreading the gospel in the hopes that God will reach the unsaved, so that none of their blood, is on our hands!
Thanks for the thought provoking thread. And yes, pure and clean, made righteous, washed in His blood is what His chosen are, even if that scenario is a bit grisly! We do not take pleasure in the death or fate of the unrighteous, we are grateful that He has given us His righteousness!

[dhchristian]

On 4/30/2020 at 12:39 PM, NonProfitProphet said:

This is what I’ve been able to understand of the pre-trib rapture movement:

1. The church is the bride, 

2. The church will be raptured to circumvent being a victim to the tribulation AND a witness of God's wrath,

3. The church/bride is made clean and pure and is married to Christ,

4. Christ takes His clean and pure wife on a honeymoon trip back to earth to kill people who rejected Him...

    A. Some of these people are relatives, friends, and even fellow church members who fooled us.

    B. This scenario reveals that the clean, pure, innocent bride will be transformed into a killing machine executing God’s wrath and participating in the biggest blood bath of all time. All the while, remaining pure and clean.

Again, this is based on what pre-tribbers say the scripture teaches- the words I’ve used may seem a bit harsh, but are not contradictory to the pre-trib doctrine.

Take a few moments to consider that loved one in your life who is not saved... imagine telling them that if they don’t accept Christ, you will return some day to kill them. Then take another moment to ask, “Is this really what the Bible teaches?”

Fascinating Post, But there is so much here that You do not understand about Revelation, that it is hard to know where to Begin. (For the record I believe in a pre wrath rapture, But that is irrelevant to this post)

First of all the "Outrageousness" of what is implied here is based on the Assumption of a benevolent and Loving God, Which He is, But he is also a Just God, In Other words you assume because he is Kind merciful, longsuffering, Loving and full of Grace he will continue to remain so. Which is not the case. Jesus came the first time not to Judge the World but the second advent is a time of Judgment. Justice WILL BE SERVED. 

Secondly, and most here will disagree with this, But it is not the Bride the Lord returns with, (He will rule with His bride for a thousand years) But an army of Saints, to execute Judgment. Precisely 10,000 of them...And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. (Jude 1:14,15) They are not the Bride of Christ, But the Ones who were Killed by Wicked People throughout the church age. (They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants[fn] and their brothers[fn] should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been. (Rev. 6:10-11, ESV) 

Thirdly, In the great tribulation, every opportunity is given to those who are unsaved to repent, But there comes a time when repentance is no more found....And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (Rev. 9:20-21) Once there is no more repentance to be found, there is no more reason to Put off Justice. This is Just simple Logic here. All that is left are the Wicked, who will not repent, and the nation of Israel which will eventually repent By a supernatural act of God.  

Fourthly, all those who reject God and His Grace and mercy Will gather to make War on Him and against Him. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. (Rev. 19:19)  They will get what they deserve.

You See, the rapture is there to spare those who are saved from witnessing the wrath of God, and the Carnage, Save for those 10,000 saints that will be part of His army who will see their vengeance executed on the wicked who slew them, By the mercy of God.

I Hope this explains your concern here and nullifies your view of the Rapture, and you may even begin to Hope for that rapture as well, (The Blessed hope) with the rest of us, irregardless of when it will be.

 

 

 

[R. Hartono]

5 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Anyone who has seen me comment about eschatology on there forums, knows that I an no pre-tribber, I find the doctrine without Biblical support. I cam across this thread, and I have to concur, that the conclusions you draw about what many if not most pre-tribbers hold, is an accurate representation.

Of course, they would not put it in the same terms, but yes, that is the gist of it. Having just said that, I found myself cringing a bit, reading it as you put it. It gave me some mixed emotions, even though it is basically an apparent criticism of a view that I do not support. It just seemed a bit creepy, that even I would not have been so . . . honest? Brusque, as on member called me once.

I thought about whether or not, I wanted to respond to this thread. As you can see, I am responding. However, it is after I realized something else, that I decided to jump in.

What I realizes is this:

I am a post-trib believer, but that does not get me out of any quandary. As a "postie", I happen to hold that I see the church the same way as you describe, returning with Christ when He does return with the church, and all those things could still hold true. I will be on the Lord's side, His enemies, are my enemies, and having the mind of Christ, I will realize that death to my loved ones, friends, neighbors, and relatives, is just what they deserve.

Before I came to know my savior, and accept Him as Lord, I too deserved that fate. In fact, I STILL deserve that fate! However, I have the privilege of being the recipient of HIs grace, and escaping His justice, because He paid the penalty for my sins.

The character of this war does not change with the timing of the rapture, that aspect is the same, no matter when the resurrection/rapture occurs, but it is an interesting observation.

What it points out, is the urgency, of spreading the gospel in the hopes that God will reach the unsaved, so that none of their blood, is on our hands!
Thanks for the thought provoking thread. And yes, pure and clean, made righteous, washed in His blood is what His chosen are, even if that scenario is a bit grisly! We do not take pleasure in the death or fate of the unrighteous, we are grateful that He has given us His righteousness!

Rapture is simply described as five wise virgins taken to the wedding, the foolish left behind n screamed because great Tribulation is coming.