Learn a lesson from the Great Awakening ...

[OneLight]

 

3 hours ago, OneLight said:

Yes, we all sin, and through the conviction of His Holy Spirit we are drawn to repent.  Repentance is the result of His fruit in us, not a fruit itself.

Let's see if Jesus speaks of repentance or not.  Looks to me that He did.  Repentance is only one part of salvation, but it is indeed what one does when accepting salvation.

Luke 24:46-48

“Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.  And you are witnesses of these things."

Luke 13:5 "I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Matthew 9:12-13

“Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.  But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

You describe salvation very nicely.   Nothing can be added to what Jesus did, nothing.  In this we can take refuge, rest.  God does not make mistakes.

From here on out is the thought process that you and many others are making about what I say.  It is easily seen in your assumption that I try to add to salvation, which, if you read above, I don't.

I often see someone who believes as you do look down on being obedient to His words and the directions His Holy Spirit gives them after they are saved.  They say it is works and works does not save you. They seem to be stuck in salvation and never move onto sanctification.  This is a misunderstanding of being obedient.  You obey because you love Him, not for any other reason, for if it is for any other reason, it is done in vain.

Through the words of Christ and the Apostles, I find that nothing is completed until the end, our death.  Are was saved the moment we accept salvation through the cross?  Absolutely!  Then what is the meaning when Jesus said in Matthew 10:22?  "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. but he who endures to the end will be saved."  Why would Jesus even say that?  He says this over and over again!  What did the writer of Hebrews mean when they penned in Hebrews 3:6 "but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end."?   What is meant by "whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end."?  What about Hebrews 3:14 "For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end"?  Ask yourself what are all these "to the end" statements about, what's their meaning?  It seems to me that we need to take heed of "to the end" seriously and realize that salvation is the promise from Jesus beginning at the moment we accept Him as our Savior all the way through the rest of our lives until we die, something that continues through the justification and sanctification process, until the end of our life.  We need to continue, endure, hold fast "to the end".  This is more than enough proof that all we need to do with our lives is to sit back and enjoy the ride.  We have work to do in Him, the work we were created to do in Him. Ephesians 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Personally, I don't recall knowing anyone that has this belief, nor have I seen anyone type this on the forum.

There may be someone, but I haven't seen them and certainly if there are some, they are a deceived minority.

Those who say they are sinless, or that they can sin and never have to repent, or indicate that obedience is  "salvation by work", have represented their belief a lot on this site.  The number of members who believe that way may be low, but their post count is not. 

2 hours ago, Alive said:

Regardless of whether we believe in OSAS or not, our lives should reflect the Christ Life within us.

I believe that my sonship is permanent and you don't--so be it--there is much disagreement in christendom. Regardless, let us press on and upward in the high calling and allow His Loving nature to be seen. I am not saying this issue is unimportant---but I am saying that it doesn't necessarily mean that we walk differently.

In other words--we can, in both camps, walk out our sanctification in faith of the Christ within and His wonderful free Gift of Righteousness and Justification.

I have an issue with the beginning of your second sentence, where you say "I believe that my sonship is permanent and you don't--so be it".  What makes you think I don't believe my salvation is permanent?  I never said it was temporal.  At this very moment in time, it is as secure as the day I received it.  I agree that one whose heart is toward God will always remain in Him, permanent and secure as possible. That said, please don't be like everyone one else who is trying to summarize my beliefs according to what you think they are instead of what I actually say they are.  From what I have seen from how you handle yourself here, that is beneath you.

I fully agree with the rest of your post.

2 hours ago, Alive said:

I do think it is very important, that our efforts to walk with Him, aren't construed to be what 'keeps us saved'.

It's not what keeps us saved as salvation is only through Jesus.  The contention is, in a nutshell, I believe someone can walk away from God to a point where God accepts the persons rejection of Him and releases them as they no longer love Him as they once did.  Instead, they have walked away to the point that their heart is hardened, so hardened they no longer care about what God wants, the bible says, and no longer will hear the voice of His Holy Spirit convicting them of their sins, while others say that is impossible.  As I said a while back, this is no more than a Calvinist vs  Arminian debate. This probably would of ended weeks ago if it were not for those who misrepresent my beliefs to the point that I would never want to talk to me if I were new here.  Slander needs to be corrected.

[OneLight]

8 hours ago, Alive said:

@OneLight How do you view this verse?

Rom. 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

With my eyes ... just kidding. 

Let's take a look how it is used in the context it was written.

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I notice in verse 28 there is one more attribute listed than in verse 29, which is the word foreknew.  So the complete list of attributes are:

1. foreknew
2. predestined
3. called
4. justified
5. glorified

As I consider these words, I can picture God, before He created man, looking down through time and foreknowing who will accept His plan of reconciliation to Him, salvation.  Through this foreknowledge, He predestined them to be conformed to the image of Jesus through His calling them so He could justify them in order for them to be glorified once they passed from this life to the next in Him.

Do you see it in another way?

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, George said:

If you are referencing the passage in Matthew ... that would point to an end time scenario ... very much connected to the passage in Rev 12:11.

Though in Matthew 24 you do see "endure to the end" used in such a way, but no so in Matthew 10.  Here we see it referring to enduring the hatred toward the Apostles because of Christ and His message they bring.  Since the Apostles never lived to the end time scenario, it's impossible it would mean that.  Since they will have to endure this type of hatred until they die, it is until the end of their life that they have to endure.

Matthew 10:16-23

Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.  But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues.  You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.  But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.  And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake.  But he who endures to the end will be saved.   When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

2 hours ago, George said:

The danger in thinking that you participate in the "salvation" process leaves one thinking their salvation is conditional based on what they are doing, instead of grasping the truth that salvation is completely a gift.   If you miss this, then you can fall into this trap and never truly enter into His Rest.   There is a REST for the people of God, not based on what they do, but based on what He has done! 

Now, to address what you see about my dangerous idea of taking into account all of scripture.  

To start with, let me ask you this.  Did you agree to being saved or was that forced upon you without your approval?  If you agreed, then you participated in the salvation process you went through and lived the "danger" I speak of.  The initial salvation process is just the beginning of a relationship, where both parties agree to function within certain parameters God laid out.

For some reason you, and others as well, have forgotten the many times I say I completely agree with Ephesians 2:1-10.  I have also said many time that what Jesus did for us is finished, completed, and nobody can take away or add to it.  As for it being conditional, yes, it is.  The condition is "If you love Me, keep My commandments."  I don't agree in the TULIP process of Calvinism. Through study I have come to believe that one can walk away from their relationship with God.  In your eyes, that is a dangerous thought process.  Well, good, as walking away from God is dangerous.  I would far rather suffer for speaking the truth than to have to to live with the quilt and explain why I watched another fall away due to not believing it can not happen.

Believe me, George.  I rest well in Him.  He has not convicted me that this message is not true in all the years I have spoken it.  In fact, He is right there bringing back to my memory what is said in scripture while I discuss the matter with many here.  What you also fail to acknowledge is what I do I do because I love God, not because I want to save myself.  I once believed as you do for about 30 years when I first was saved. It is what I was taught, what I learned, and what I believed.  OSAS is not new to me at all.  Than a strange thing happened to me. I started being a Berean and studied scripture as they did.  Wanting to see for myself if what I heard every Sunday was true or not, I took to heart to find the truth for myself.  That is when I read the passages never talked about in a church that preaches OSAS.  My eye were opened to the fullness of scripture and my understanding grew.  Now, if that is dangerous, then by all means, let the danger come.

[OneLight]

9 hours ago, JustPassingThru said:

@OneLight  and this one, 

...according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in Love,  Eph 1:4

And this one what?  What is it you want to know

[George]

10 minutes ago, OneLight said:

To start with, let me ask you this.  Did you agree to being saved or was that forced upon you without your approval?  If you agreed, then you participated in the salvation process you went through and lived the "danger" I speak of.  The initial salvation process is just the beginning of a relationship, where both parties agree to function within certain parameters God laid out.

But once a gift is accepted ... I'm not worried about losing it.      Again, you laid out the term 'initial' salvation process ... it's not a process ... it's a transaction.  Is someone partially born slowly over a lifetime?  Or is someone born again in a moment?  As soon as the baby exits the birthing canal ... the baby is born. 

13 minutes ago, OneLight said:

The condition is "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

If you read carefully the entire passage, the statement you made is not FOR salvation ... but PROOF of salvation.

Read it carefully,

Joh 15:7  If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 
Joh 15:8  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 
Joh 15:9  As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 
Joh 15:10  If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 

This discussion reminds me of the Puritan view of faith.  Puritans never would say who was or not saved, but rather would say ... He shows FRUITS of being saved.

Once someone is truly born again ... their lives will truly manifest fruit not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE of salvation. 

God bless,

George

[OneLight]

52 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Now, to address what you see about my dangerous idea of taking into account all of scripture.  

To start with, let me ask you this.  Did you agree to being saved or was that forced upon you without your approval?  If you agreed, then you participated in the salvation process you went through and lived the "danger" I speak of.  The initial salvation process is just the beginning of a relationship, where both parties agree to function within certain parameters God laid out.

 

31 minutes ago, George said:

But once a gift is accepted ... I'm not worried about losing it.      Again, you laid out the term 'initial' salvation process ... it's not a process ... it's a transaction.  Is someone partially born slowly over a lifetime?  Or is someone born again in a moment?  As soon as the baby exits the birthing canal ... the baby is born. 

Let's see what is written in scripture, Brother.

1 Peter 1:3-9

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.  Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

When we accept Jesus as out Lord and  Savior through salvation, it is the beginning of a life long journey, not the end of it.  Yes, a lot happens once we are saved, no doubting that at all, but it is not the end at all.  What do you think Peter meant when he said our inheritance and salvation are reserved in heaven and ready to be revealed in the last time, receiving the end of our faith -- the salvation of our souls?  Sounds like a process to me.

What about Paul when he wrote to the Thessalonians "because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit"?  According to the general belief, once saved comes justification, then sanctification, then glorification.   Here we see that through sanctification comes salvation.  Can both be true?  Yup, if salvation is not completely finished until the sanctification process is completed, which is when we die.  A process.

 

The gift is of God and never fades away.  It is still there waiting for those who have not accepted salvation in hopes that they do.  It will be there even after they die unsaved.  It is eternal.  I am sure that you know where your gift is at all times, George, so you will not lose it.  Let's pray and hope you continue in Him until your last breath so this remains true. 

 

52 minutes ago, OneLight said:

 As for it being conditional, yes, it is.  The condition is "If you love Me, keep My commandments." 

 

31 minutes ago, George said:

If you read carefully the entire passage, the statement you made is not FOR salvation ... but PROOF of salvation.

Read it carefully,

Joh 15:7  If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 
Joh 15:8  By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 
Joh 15:9  As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 
Joh 15:10  If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 

This discussion reminds me of the Puritan view of faith.  Puritans never would say who was or not saved, but rather would say ... He shows FRUITS of being saved.

Once someone is truly born again ... their lives will truly manifest fruit not FOR salvation, but BECAUSE of salvation. 

God bless,

George

I am sorry George, but you reply doesn't seem to have anything to do with what you quoted from my post.  I really don't see the connection.  Could you explain how fruits have anything to do with salvation being conditional?

[Alive]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

With my eyes ... just kidding. 

Let's take a look how it is used in the context it was written.

Romans 8:28-30

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

I notice in verse 28 there is one more attribute listed than in verse 29, which is the word foreknew.  So the complete list of attributes are:

1. foreknew
2. predestined
3. called
4. justified
5. glorified

As I consider these words, I can picture God, before He created man, looking down through time and foreknowing who will accept His plan of reconciliation to Him, salvation.  Through this foreknowledge, He predestined them to be conformed to the image of Jesus through His calling them so He could justify them in order for them to be glorified once they passed from this life to the next in Him.

Do you see it in another way?

I didn't quote that verse to prove or disprove our human notion of 'predestination'--for myself, I think there is something missing in our capacity to fully grasp this concept--although we try.

No--what I was addressing is the past tense of' justified' and 'glorified' as applied by the verse to those who 'ARE' born again birthed sons of God.

This links to the 'History' of the Cross and is additional proof of what happened there in the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension.

I don't recall that you have yet responded to what I am laying out regarding that History. Since the Cross and the Work of His Son is God's way of restoration of all things---I always start and finish there when desiring to understand things pertaining to our common Salvation. Everything must square up to the Cross as this is the Father's Way of solving the Problem.

So--what of the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension and the clear fact that we 'were' past tense included there. Like the note in the book, I mentioned.

[Alive]

I can be like a broken record--even in my own ears. It seems so simple since the Lord showed me the Cross from the perspective of it's History and Heaven's point of view of those events.

Death, Resurrection and Ascension and our inclusion in those real time events.

There is a birthing into a new race and that race of men is Christ--the New man and Second Adam. The first Adam possessed certain characteristics and one of those was 'death'--cessation of Life. The Second Adam possesses certain characteristics and one of those is 'Eternal Life'. God Life.

The first is subject to the laws governing that' being' and the Second is subject to the Laws governing a very very different 'BEING'.

[George]

10 hours ago, OneLight said:

I am sorry George, but you reply doesn't seem to have anything to do with what you quoted from my post.  I really don't see the connection.  Could you explain how fruits have anything to do with salvation being conditional?

Because salvation is not conditonal on what we DO, but what we BELIEVE.  The fruit is NATURAL because we're born again.

[steve morrow]

CONDITIONAL ???

PSALM 71:1  in thee  O  LORD  do I put my trust let me never be put to confusion 

PSALM 109:29  let mine adversaries be clothed with shame and let them cover themselves with their own confusion as with a mantle 

JEREMIAH 13:10  this evil people which --REFUSE  TO  HEAR  MY  WORDS-- which walk in the imagination of their heart and walk after other gods to serve them and to worship them shall even be as this girdle which is good for nothing 

 

MATTHEW 12:36  but I say unto you that every idle word that men shall speak they shall give account thereof in the day of judgement 

--12:37-- FOR  BY  THY  WORDS  THOU  SHALT  BE  JUSTIFIED  AND  BY  THY  WORDS  THOU  SHALT  BE  --CONDEMNED--

 

PSALM 119:155  SALVATION  is far from the wicked for they seek not  MY  statutes

 

QUESTION  IS  WHY  SO  MANY  WORKS  THAT  ARE  NOT  TRUTH  IF  SALVATION  IS  NOT  BY  WORKS 

PSALM 33:4  for the word of  THE  LORD  is right and all  HIS  works are done in truth 

2 PETER 1:3  according as  HIS  DIVINE  POWER  hath given ( is not this past tense ) unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of  HIM  that hath called us to glory and virtue 

2 TIMOTHY 2:7  consider what I say and  THE  LORD  give thee understanding in all things 

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST