Learn a lesson from the Great Awakening ...

[OneLight]

2 hours ago, Alive said:

@OneLightHave you dealt with the Cross, Resurrection and Ascension as I laid out and discussed?

Please read those posts again---all controversial verses must square up to God's solution of the Cross.

I respect you , so I have read all your replies to me and took the time to digest what you say.  I agree with just about every point you make, except your point that man will not ever turn from God after salvation.  You see it as Jesus losing a believer, I see it as man turning from God.  You would say that a man in that situation was never saved in the first place, I say he was saved, but turned from his faith.  You would say that since a true born again believer will never turn from God that scripture only talks about the unsaved when placing warning/conditions on a persons salvation, I say scripture speaks to the saved and unsaved alike when speaking about warnings/conditions, and add that some are directed toward the believer only.

Yes, it does have to square up with with the cross, but again, you see salvation as one point in life that follows you to the end, I see salvation as the whole process of life, rewarded at the end.

It's not the cross where the difference lies, it's the whole process of life where we differ.  I sure wish this software would allow columns so I could set our beliefs side by side to show just how close we are in our beliefs while allowing us to see the differences together.

Consider the times we live in.  Just 100 years ago, believers were far more steadfast in scripture than today.  Christians depended on the word for their answers.  Today, the word is mingled with many other philosophies from all around the world and many false teachings have derived from the mingling.  Years ago, people were hot or cold in their faith.  Today people are all over the place, mostly lukewarm.  People use to really love each other, not this love is so fickle it is hard to even see in many.  Yes, the love of many is growing cold.  Because of this, people will begin to fall away from the saving faith they once had.  It can be seen throughout the world today.  This is prophesied and will happen more and more as time draws to His return.  How can they turn from something they never had?  The only answer people could come up with that satisfied their belief is that they were never saved in the first place, which brings us back to the beginning.  For some, it is a circle that never ends, while to me, the end is at death when we will be judged for our faith.  Either the slate will be clean by those who loved God and walk according to His will or it will contain sins that require judgment for those who rejected His will in their life.  Then it comes back to who are those who have sins to judge.  You would say the lost.  I would agree, but also add that some of those who are lost were once saved, but walked away from their salvation (cross) in Him.

You see, it all does end at the cross.  Does the cross tell us that when a person accepts Jesus as their savior that they lose their free will?  I will assume that both of our answers are no, free will still remains.  I refuse to be the judge of anyone who claims Jesus as their savior, deciding within myself if they are saved or not.  For this reason, to me, they are saved, so when the cares of this world come upon them and they turn, they lose what they once had.  Those who remain bear good fruit.  I do not say that those who succumbed to the cares of this world were never saved in the first place. 

Is it futile to even continue at this point?  Perhaps.  It has not been settled by those before us.  Could it be that it was not the time for settlement back then, but as time grows closer to the return of Jesus, the differences are becoming more critical and we need to once again become united and be in one accord?  Could it also be that both sides are watchmen where one side calls out "Come, the way is safe and you can make it", standing as the voice of encouragement, while the other side calls out "come, this is the way, but be very watchful of the dangers or you could be hurt or even die", being the voice of warning?  Both are speaking of the same path, but each see it in different ways.

[Alive]

1 hour ago, OneLight said:

I respect you , so I have read all your replies to me and took the time to digest what you say.  I agree with just about every point you make, except your point that man will not ever turn from God after salvation.

I never said that man will never turn from God after salvation. Man can turn away, but he cannot undue being 'born from above".

@OneLight You are still doing what you have told others that they are doing and that is not dealing directly with what another proposes.

You have still not addressed the 'History' of the Cross, resurrection and ascension.

I will try another way, OK?

1. Were you 'In Christ' on the Cross as the scriptures teach us?

2. Assuming the answer is yes--did you die with Christ?

3. Were you also then raised with Him in New Life being transferred from the First Adam to the Second? This means much--among which is a New Nature, which is Christ in you.

4. Did you also ascend with Christ into heaven and are now "hidden with Christ in God"?

5. Assuming that you answer yes to these 4 questions, how do you reverse this? How do you get out of the New Creation--a New Race of Men that you were birthed into?

Nicodemas asked Jesus, "how can a man go back into a mother's womb". Jesus answered by expounding on a different kind of birth--a birth in the Spirit Realm.

A very real birth. A New Creation. Can you go back into the womb of your mother? Back into the loins of the First Adam, from whom you derived your 'first' life?

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

I never said that man will never turn from God after salvation. Man can turn away, but he cannot undue being 'born from above".

Then lets discuss this.  You are correct, man can not cause himself to be born from above nor can he remove himself from being born from above, only God can.  When those in scripture turn away, what is the result if they do not repent?  What does James say in James 5:19-20?  "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."  What is a dead soul mean to you?  Can someone born from above remain so if their soul is dead?

Do you believe that those believers in the seven churches whom Jesus tells to repent are not born from above also?  Jesus tells them in different ways to repent of they will die.  Do you believe that people can be saved but no born from above?  If so, please explain the differences

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

@OneLight You are still doing what you have told others that they are doing and that is not dealing directly with what another proposes.

@Alive  That seems to be the nature of most discussions, including some we have had.  One person proposes one thing, and other replies with a proposal themselves, the first returns with a reply addressing their proposal, and the other responds with a reply addressing what they propose, each talking about their own proposal, never addressing what the other says.  This is what I was talking about when I said these discussions are very discouraging. 

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

You have still not addressed the 'History' of the Cross, resurrection and ascension.

If you are replying to me, please either quote me or use the @ sign so I am aware that you have responded.  As I have stated, I am replying during breaks.  Due to the lack of time, I respond to the replies in the notifications.  I do not red through each thread to see if I missed something, but since you say I still had not addressed the issue, I did look back and notice a reply as if it were to everyone where you continued the discussion to me..  Thanks!

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

I will try another way, OK?

1. Were you 'In Christ' on the Cross as the scriptures teach us?

2. Assuming the answer is yes--did you die with Christ?

3. Were you also then raised with Him in New Life being transferred from the First Adam to the Second? This means much--among which is a New Nature, which is Christ in you.

4. Did you also ascend with Christ into heaven and are now "hidden with Christ in God"?

Yes, to all four, while understanding they are metaphors and are speaking of spiritual matters. 

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

5. Assuming that you answer yes to these 4 questions, how do you reverse this? How do you get out of the New Creation--a New Race of Men that you were birthed into?

Nicodemas asked Jesus, "how can a man go back into a mother's womb". Jesus answered by expounding on a different kind of birth--a birth in the Spirit Realm.

A very real birth. A New Creation. Can you go back into the womb of your mother? Back into the loins of the First Adam, from whom you derived your 'first' life?

By no longer desiring to walk in this new life, as I have said all along.  Brother, we cannot assume everyone walks the same walk or that everyone has the same amount of faith.  That is not realistic.  You may never have any issue that causes you to think if being in Christ is worth it.  I may have one now and again.  Someone else may struggle a lot harder and question more often, and some may have a real hard time in their walk and are constantly wondering if they made the right choice. Each scenario is different from one to the other, but does that mean they do not exist because the one with no issues cannot comprehend the one with constant issues?  Should we not warn those who are struggling and encourage them to hold onto what they have before they lose it?  Where is the love for our brothers if we just walk on the other side of the road, passing by the injured and suffering?

The question is not if we can be unborn by ourselves, but if our hearts are hardened to the point where the Father removes us.  We can no more save ourselves then we can un-save ourselves.  Who is the vine and who is the vinedresser?

[Alive]

8 minutes ago, OneLight said:

  2 minutes ago, Alive said:

I will try another way, OK?

1. Were you 'In Christ' on the Cross as the scriptures teach us?

2. Assuming the answer is yes--did you die with Christ?

3. Were you also then raised with Him in New Life being transferred from the First Adam to the Second? This means much--among which is a New Nature, which is Christ in you.

4. Did you also ascend with Christ into heaven and are now "hidden with Christ in God"?

Yes, to all four, while understanding they are metaphors and are speaking of spiritual matters. 

 

I am surprised to see you think that the Cross and our inclusion in Him is a metaphor.

If that is the case, then we are indeed coming from very different places.

Christ's suffering and shed blood is no metaphor and the efficacy for both is no metaphor.

Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live, but Christ lives in me". That is also true of myself.

My life is hidden with Christ in God.

I was once a member of the First Adam's race. That is no metaphor. I had a mother and father whose lineage goes back the Adam. I was 'born from above' and the result is very real. I experienced a very different 'me' when that happened.

It is just as real and substantial, that I am now a member of the Second Adam. This is no metaphor.

In fact, it is God's solution to the Problem of Adam's fall and the sin and transgressions that followed. If this is not true, than I am still in my sin and will perish.

I might suggest a word study. Do a search on all the times the phrase 'In Christ' occurs and the context. I can do that for you and put it here if you like?

Being 'In Christ' is a very real thing. It is more real and substantial than this desk I sit at. I can knock on this wood and feel it and hear the result. That is real.

My being 'In Christ' is more real than that is.

No metaphor....Reality.  A Reality in two realms.  And recognized by every single created being in this universe!

Praise God! I am a son of the Living God! No longer a son of Adam or Lucifer!

[Alive]

7 minutes ago, Addy said:

 

I am going to attempt to answer this one thought... Please allow me to retreat if I FEEL the need... as I am on REST mode and STAY out of DEBATES mode....which is a nice way of saying... I am TRYING to stay out of TROUBLE... LOL ... I have not specifically tagged OneLight and am quoting him but it is for general purpose of addressing the issue of a hardened heart with reference to FATHER giving up on us... and REJECTING or REMOVING us. 

I am one of those who got saved 20 some years ago... I said the sinner's prayer... I declared myself a CHRISTIAN... I changed my choice of music... and I continued to frequent the Christian chat room where I initially got saved... for the next four years... What occurred in that chatroom was so appalling that it would damage me for all of 20 years... the FALSE teachings... the FALSE doctrines.. they all came at me until I became so overwhelmed and plagued with guilt and shame that I died before I was even permitted to GROW. Add a very legalistic family in real life.. and presto... a very wounded CHRISTIAN. 

I have had those ISSUES of which you speak... probably more issues than I even care to admit... I was NOT walking in CHRIST... or with CHRIST... I was DEAD in my tracks... because NO ONE... NOT ONE... FED ME what I needed to be fed in order to GROW... THANKFULLY... BECAUSE of God's MERCY and GRACE... HE did NOT abandon me or give up on me... or DAMN me. I was still SAVED at this time... I got saved 20 years ago... and the BLOOD of CHRIST was the payment made to PURCHASE me... I am bought and paid for in FULL... and my condition is God's business.. and God's business alone... 

What most people would judge as me having LOST my SALVATION... was ACTUALLY me NOT understanding my NEW IDENTITY.. and satan had a hay day with that.. perhaps because he saw me as an EXTRA DANGEROUS THREAT...because NOW... I am filled with the KNOWLEDGE that satan can no longer touch me. I am thankful that GOD saw my heart and understood that I was BROKEN.... So often we judge people as NOT being WORTH the effort.. of the ATONEMENT of CHRIST... and I guess that is correct but I think absolutely EVERY HUMAN being would fall under the NOT WORTHY part. 

SANCTIFICATION is a SACRED PLACE... that no man has permission to judge... because GOD often does invisible work. I do not understand why so many CHRISTIANS seem so pre-occupied with the spiritual condition of others. I really don't get it. I am so THANKFUL... so GRATEFUL that GRACE and MERCY are truly as powerful as the bible says they are.... I am so THANKFUL that GOD knew I was broken and because of HIS promise to me at the time of my salvation that HE was FAITHFUL to keep HIS PROMISE to me..... until which time I would be able to see a bit clearer...and begin to walk as I should. 

Reading this is a wonderful blessing, Addy. Thank you and Praise the Lord!

[OneLight]

17 hours ago, George said:

@OneLight  it's the end of the night ... I didn't have time to go through each parable.  But once again, if you look carefully at those parables ... part of it is connected to your eschatological position ... and personally I didn't want to make this an eschatological discussion, but that plays a HUGE part in those parables.

I fully understand that we may need to wait until we have time to answer.  When that is the case, just say so.  No big deal.  I was just confused and discouraged by your last reply as it didn't follow our discussion.

17 hours ago, George said:

As far as Romans 11 -- This is what I wrote ...

The Romans 11 passage in detail explained ...

You have to start at Romans 8 -- Romans 8 is about the who can separate us from the love of Christ?  

He then goes into the dissertation ... because the argument is ... did the Jews get separated from God?  ... So he goes through 3 full chapters discussing the role of the Jewish people.  Paul goes into great detail to prove the Romans 8 question, can someone be separated from the love of God?  And his proof is using the Jewish people.

He explains that the Jews were "broken" off because of unbelief?  How could they be broken off IF THEY NEVER BELIEVED?  

The only explanation that MAKES SENSE ... is what I wrote some time ago ...

God's love and His desire is for ALL MEN to be saved.  At the beginning of time, God already knew who was going to be born, and so every person and every name was written into the Lamb's book of life before the foundation of the world.

 

It's only after UNBELIEF that any one is finally blotted out and the blotting out takes place at the time of death.

 

Rom 11:19  Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 
Rom 11:20  That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

So if you suggest that the Jews were SAVED ... then broken off ... that doesn't make sense since Paul expresses the need to reach them with the gospel in Romans 9!  The text clearly shows that they were broken off BECAUSE of unbelief.

Rom 11:21  For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 
Rom 11:22  Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 

So the context of the passage is ... the Jews were broken off because of UNBELIEF ... so Paul warns and says, if the Jewish people who were the 'promised' people and chosen of God to bring forth the gospel were able to be broken off because of unbelief ... then it could easily happen to you ... the reason ANYONE is broken off is because of unbelief.

Rom 11:23  And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

So how are the Jews RE-GRAFTED in?  How could they be "re-grafted" in -- if they "lost their salvation" ... but they were NEVER SAVED to begin with ... 

Do you see the dilemma you are presented with?  If you are suggesting that the JEWS were saved and lost their salvation ... then it doesn't fit the narrative Paul has been laying out since Romans 9.  So if the Jews are not saved as Paul is saying in Romans 9 and their need of salvation, then how are re-grafted in?  But they were not saved to begin with.

The solution to the entire paradox is simple ... God DESIRES that all men come to salvation ... their names are WRITTEN in the Lamb's book of life ... and did they believe at the time of their death?  If not, then their names are finally blotted out.

If you read this thread I'm linking ... I go into great detail how Judas was written on the books and how the betrayer of Jesus was originally blotted out to illustrate this point in much more detail.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/222513-how-osas-and-a-christian-living-a-holy-and-pure-life-are-intricately-connected-my-understanding-of-a-complex-issue/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-2808043

I understand this is a reply in a discussion you had with Gideon, so I am trying to follow your answers the best I can.

I do not know Jewish history as well as yo do, so correct me if I am wrong here.  Before Christ, Jesus was referred to in the OT many times, where the nation of Israel believed that the Savior will come and rule as a King.  They were nor expecting Him to show up as a Lamb first, so when He did come as a Lamb, they rejected Him.  Is this the unbelief you say Paul is referring to here?  If so, then many branches were removed for the Olive Tree, the true spiritual Israel, starting from Jesus ministry up to today.  Also, the "wild olive branch", the Gentiles, that believed in Jesus are grafted spiritually into the Olive Tree, the spiritual Israel?  Am I following your or am I still not understanding your point?

OK, now onto my question about Romans 11:22 where Paul writes "Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. "  Please keep in mind I am not speaking of the natural branches, but only the wild branches. If being cut off is due to unbelief, in the manner Paul mentions, would that not mean that the only way a wild branch is grafted in is due to their belief, then if they get removed after being grafted in, it is due to they turning from the belief to unbelief?

[George]

8 minutes ago, OneLight said:

Before Christ, Jesus was referred to in the OT many times, where the nation of Israel believed that the Savior will come and rule as a King.  They were nor expecting Him to show up as a Lamb first, so when He did come as a Lamb, they rejected Him.  Is this the unbelief you say Paul is referring to here?

No, not really.  If you follow the entire dialogue of Romans straight through ... first, he goes about saying our Righteousness is by Faith alone (Romans 4) ... as Abraham believed in God and it was accounted him righteousness.  Then he continues his discourse talking about the law ... and goes through how the law no one will be justified ... right into Romans 8 ... those in the Spirit are not under condemnation etc ... so the belief in God starting in Chapter 4 .. and going through the faith one has in Jesus ... Romans 10 -- if one confesses with the mouth and believes in the heart ... 

So that's the belief Paul continues with in Romans 11.

Sorry to cut this short ... Shavuot dinner tonight.  . Be blessed!

[OneLight]

2 minutes ago, George said:

No, not really.  If you follow the entire dialogue of Romans straight through ... first, he goes about saying our Righteousness is by Faith alone (Romans 4) ... as Abraham believed in God and it was accounted him righteousness.  Then he continues his discourse talking about the law ... and goes through how the law no one will be justified ... right into Romans 8 ... those in the Spirit are not under condemnation etc ... so the belief in God starting in Chapter 4 .. and going through the faith one has in Jesus ... Romans 10 -- if one confesses with the mouth and believes in the heart ... 

So that's the belief Paul continues with in Romans 11.

Sorry to cut this short ... Shavuot dinner tonight.  . Be blessed!

OK, still not sure how my history was off, but as you first said, I went back to Romans 8 and onto 11, figuring you were pointing to  Israels unbelief. Now we travel back to Romans 4 where it speaks about the Law.  I do understand Romans Law vs Grace theme.

Still, the subject of our initial discussion remains unanswered.  When you get the chance, I would like to know your thoughts about the wild branch question.

Enjoy your feast!

[OneLight]

45 minutes ago, Addy said:

 

I am going to attempt to answer this one thought... Please allow me to retreat if I FEEL the need... as I am on REST mode and STAY out of DEBATES mode....which is a nice way of saying... I am TRYING to stay out of TROUBLE... LOL ... I have not specifically tagged OneLight and am quoting him but it is for general purpose of addressing the issue of a hardened heart with reference to FATHER giving up on us... and REJECTING or REMOVING us. 

I am one of those who got saved 20 some years ago... I said the sinner's prayer... I declared myself a CHRISTIAN... I changed my choice of music... and I continued to frequent the Christian chat room where I initially got saved... for the next four years... What occurred in that chatroom was so appalling that it would damage me for all of 20 years... the FALSE teachings... the FALSE doctrines.. they all came at me until I became so overwhelmed and plagued with guilt and shame that I died before I was even permitted to GROW. Add a very legalistic family in real life.. and presto... a very wounded CHRISTIAN. 

I have had those ISSUES of which you speak... probably more issues than I even care to admit... I was NOT walking in CHRIST... or with CHRIST... I was DEAD in my tracks... because NO ONE... NOT ONE... FED ME what I needed to be fed in order to GROW... THANKFULLY... BECAUSE of God's MERCY and GRACE... HE did NOT abandon me or give up on me... or DAMN me. I was still SAVED at this time... I got saved 20 years ago... and the BLOOD of CHRIST was the payment made to PURCHASE me... I am bought and paid for in FULL... and my condition is God's business.. and God's business alone... 

What most people would judge as me having LOST my SALVATION... was ACTUALLY me NOT understanding my NEW IDENTITY.. and satan had a hay day with that.. perhaps because he saw me as an EXTRA DANGEROUS THREAT...because NOW... I am filled with the KNOWLEDGE that satan can no longer touch me. I am thankful that GOD saw my heart and understood that I was BROKEN.... So often we judge people as NOT being WORTH the effort.. of the ATONEMENT of CHRIST... and I guess that is correct but I think absolutely EVERY HUMAN being would fall under the NOT WORTHY part. 

SANCTIFICATION is a SACRED PLACE... that no man has permission to judge... because GOD often does invisible work. I do not understand why so many CHRISTIANS seem so pre-occupied with the spiritual condition of others. I really don't get it. I am so THANKFUL... so GRATEFUL that GRACE and MERCY are truly as powerful as the bible says they are.... I am so THANKFUL that GOD knew I was broken and because of HIS promise to me at the time of my salvation that HE was FAITHFUL to keep HIS PROMISE to me..... until which time I would be able to see a bit clearer...and begin to walk as I should. 

If I may reply.  Very beautiful story of one's heart being in the right place.  You never rejected Him and He knew it!  Your desire was still to Him, not the world, riches, etc.

Like you, I don't not judge ones salvation as I cannot know their heart.  I can, however, see if someone is living a life of sin when they once walked with God.  Everything about them changes.  When I see someone in this type of situation, I follow what James said in James 5:19-20  "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."  To me, that goes hand in hand with what Jesus said in Matthew 22:37-40  “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’  This is the first and great commandment.  And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”  I know that if I were that one sinning, I would really want someone to turn me from that sin.

Never feel you have to respond to anything at any time.  If you feel the need to bow out of any conversation, by all means, bow out.  I know I have.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

I am surprised to see you think that the Cross and our inclusion in Him is a metaphor.

If that is the case, then we are indeed coming from very different places.

Christ's suffering and shed blood is no metaphor and the efficacy for both is no metaphor.

Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ and it is no longer I that live, but Christ lives in me". That is also true of myself.

My life is hidden with Christ in God.

I was once a member of the First Adam's race. That is no metaphor. I had a mother and father whose lineage goes back the Adam. I was 'born from above' and the result is very real. I experienced a very different 'me' when that happened.

It is just as real and substantial, that I am now a member of the Second Adam. This is no metaphor.

In fact, it is God's solution to the Problem of Adam's fall and the sin and transgressions that followed. If this is not true, than I am still in my sin and will perish.

I might suggest a word study. Do a search on all the times the phrase 'In Christ' occurs and the context. I can do that for you and put it here if you like?

Being 'In Christ' is a very real thing. It is more real and substantial than this desk I sit at. I can knock on this wood and feel it and hear the result. That is real.

My being 'In Christ' is more real than that is.

No metaphor....Reality.  A Reality in two realms.  And recognized by every single created being in this universe!

Praise God! I am a son of the Living God! No longer a son of Adam or Lucifer!

Did you physically hang on the cross, die, rise again and ascend into heaven, or spiritually?   Spiritually, yes, physically, no.  Maybe the term I was looking for is allegory.  Sorry for the confusion.  I replied when I stopped working for a short break and didn't give this word much thought.

The favorite way for me to study is by doing words studies.  This is something I had to do as I have a reading problem, one that makes me a very slow reader.  I have to understand every word I read.  If I don't now the word, I have stop reading to look it up to ensure I understand what is being said, so this became second nature to me and grew to the point that when ever I read scripture, the dictionary is right next to me.  Have you ever used The Complete Word Study Dictionary before?   It goes way beyond what you can find online, that I now of.  I'm sure you have a huge library, just not sure you have seen this particular dictionary.