Eternal torment or eternal death

[OneLight]

11 hours ago, Alive said:

This is a word study that is somewhat long, but a look at it may be of some help to some folks.

 

Thanks for the study Alive, but do you have any thoughts on the word for ever, eternal or eons, which is what the topic is about.

[OneLight]

13 hours ago, Butch5 said:

These passages don't tell us that the fire is forever, that's the point. Aion cannot mean eternal. I agree, our conversations aren't Scripture, but they do show how words are used.

What someone "wants" to believe doesn't really matter. What matters is what the Scriptures actually say. The Scriptures say that God cannot lie. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die'. He didn't say the soul that sins shall be tormented in fire for eternity. If God said the punishment for sin is death, how can anyone say it's something else? Paul said the wages of sin is death. He didn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment in fire. The issue here is God's character. 

Another problem with the ETC doctrine is that it has the wicked getting eternal life. However, in Scripture we find that eternal life is the gift of God to the believer, not the unbeliever. 

The ETC doctrine is based on this mistranslation of aion. Take that away and there is no support for the doctrine.

First, what do you mean by ETC doctrine?  I have not heard that acronym before.

Second, try Mark 9:42-48, which are Gods words also.

[Alive]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

Thanks for the study Alive, but do you have any thoughts on the word for ever, eternal or eons, which is what the topic is about.

Yes--my understanding is much the same as what Butch has laid out.

I believe that 'perish' means 'perish'.

As far as the bigger picture, brother---I cannot accept that the God that I have known these years is capable of torturing people for an eternity.

There are many things wrong with that.

[Butch5]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

First, what do you mean by ETC doctrine?  I have not heard that acronym before.

Second, try Mark 9:42-48, which are Gods words also.

ETC is Eternal Conscious Torment. 

I'm familiar with this passage in Mark. It doesn't necessitate ETC. It says the fire shall not be quenched. The Greek word means to quench or extinguish. To quench a fire is to put it out. So, the passage is saying the fire will not be put out. It doesn't mean the fire won't burn out of it own accord. But, even if the fire didn't go out, there's nothing here to indicate that the ones thrown into it would burn forever. 

 

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Alive said:

Yes--my understanding is much the same as what Butch has laid out.

I believe that 'perish' means 'perish'.

As far as the bigger picture, brother---I cannot accept that the God that I have known these years is capable of torturing people for an eternity.

There are many things wrong with that.

 

1 hour ago, Butch5 said:

ETC is Eternal Conscious Torment. 

I'm familiar with this passage in Mark. It doesn't necessitate ETC. It says the fire shall not be quenched. The Greek word means to quench or extinguish. To quench a fire is to put it out. So, the passage is saying the fire will not be put out. It doesn't mean the fire won't burn out of it own accord. But, even if the fire didn't go out, there's nothing here to indicate that the ones thrown into it would burn forever. 

 

Let's run with the term meaning "age" then.  What age are we talking about here?  Is it the church age?  The millennium age?  The New Heaven and New Earth Age?  Or is it just a certain time frame nobody know it's length?  Seems to me that you believe any form of torture is unacceptable for any amount of time.

Like I said earlier, we will never know what the verses really mean until we are in that time period.

[Butch5]

12 minutes ago, OneLight said:

 

Let's run with the term meaning "age" then.  What age are we talking about here?  Is it the church age?  The millennium age?  The New Heaven and New Earth Age?  Or is it just a certain time frame nobody know it's length?  Seems to me that you believe any form of torture is unacceptable for any amount of time.

Like I said earlier, we will never know what the verses really mean until we are in that time period.

It's not that it's unacceptable. I just don't see it. My understanding of what a man is comes from Gen. 2:7.

 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:1 KJV)

From this I conclude that man consists of the dust of the earth. God then breathed His breath or spirit (same word) of life into the man and the man became a living soul. We see from this that a living soul consists of the man, body of dust, and the breath or spirit of life, of God. We're told that when the man dies the breath or spirit of life returns to God and the body returns to dust. Since the body and the breath of life have separated there is no more soul. Thus there is nothing to live on after death. There is nothing there to punish for eternity. The only way someone could be punished for eternity is if they were given eternal life. That brings up another problem for this doctrine of ETC. In the Scriptures the promise to believers is eternal life. Eternal life is not promised to the wicked. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death'. All through the Scriptures the penalty for sin is death. The ETC doctrine says the opposite, It says that the sinner is granted eternal life and  won't die, he will be cast into the Lake of Fire where he will spend his eternal life in torment, he won't die. This is exactly opposite of what we find in Scripture which says, the soul that sins shall die and that the gift of God to the believer is eternal life. I'm not aware of any place in Scripture where the wicked or unbelievers are promised eternal life.

 

Regarding the length of the age, I'm not sure that Scripture gives an exact length. Isaiah does give us this passage.

 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)

 

Here God says through Isaiah that all flesh shall come up to worship Him. They shall passage by this place Jesus called Gehenna where the wicked are burning. However, notice that it's dead bodies that are burning here, not living souls or spirits. 

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, Butch5 said:

It's not that it's unacceptable. I just don't see it. My understanding of what a man is comes from Gen. 2:7.

 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen. 2:1 KJV)

From this I conclude that man consists of the dust of the earth. God then breathed His breath or spirit (same word) of life into the man and the man became a living soul. We see from this that a living soul consists of the man, body of dust, and the breath or spirit of life, of God. We're told that when the man dies the breath or spirit of life returns to God and the body returns to dust. Since the body and the breath of life have separated there is no more soul. Thus there is nothing to live on after death. There is nothing there to punish for eternity. The only way someone could be punished for eternity is if they were given eternal life. That brings up another problem for this doctrine of ETC. In the Scriptures the promise to believers is eternal life. Eternal life is not promised to the wicked. God said, 'the soul that sins shall die'. Paul said, 'the wages of sin is death'. All through the Scriptures the penalty for sin is death. The ETC doctrine says the opposite, It says that the sinner is granted eternal life and  won't die, he will be cast into the Lake of Fire where he will spend his eternal life in torment, he won't die. This is exactly opposite of what we find in Scripture which says, the soul that sins shall die and that the gift of God to the believer is eternal life. I'm not aware of any place in Scripture where the wicked or unbelievers are promised eternal life.

 

Regarding the length of the age, I'm not sure that Scripture gives an exact length. Isaiah does give us this passage.

 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:1 KJV)

 

Here God says through Isaiah that all flesh shall come up to worship Him. They shall passage by this place Jesus called Gehenna where the wicked are burning. However, notice that it's dead bodies that are burning here, not living souls or spirits. 

Using your theology, I need to ask if you believe in life after death for Christians?  If so, how does this come about?  If the spirit of man returns to God, which I believe it does also, does this spirit live on with God if we have eternal life with God?  If so, than the spirit of those who rejected salvation must also live onto eternal separation from God.  Life is God, death is separation from God, as I see it.

About the age question.  I was not asking for a length, but which age will it be as there are different ages mentioned in scripture? 

Allow me to ask another question.  If the lost do not live for eternity, how is it that those who blaspheme "against His Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” (Mark 3:29).  Eternal, in this case, is aiōnios G166 -

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

 

[Butch5]

6 hours ago, OneLight said:

Using your theology, I need to ask if you believe in life after death for Christians?  If so, how does this come about?  If the spirit of man returns to God, which I believe it does also, does this spirit live on with God if we have eternal life with God?  If so, than the spirit of those who rejected salvation must also live onto eternal separation from God.  Life is God, death is separation from God, as I see it.

About the age question.  I was not asking for a length, but which age will it be as there are different ages mentioned in scripture? 

Allow me to ask another question.  If the lost do not live for eternity, how is it that those who blaspheme "against His Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation” (Mark 3:29).  Eternal, in this case, is aiōnios G166 -

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

 

The only afterlife I believe in is the Resurrection. When Christ returns the dead in Christ will be raised. The spirit that returns to God is not man, it's God's breath or spirit of life. It is something of God, not man. It is the thing that gives man life. The believer will live with the Lord at the Resurrection. I believe the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.

It would seem to be at the end of this age from what I see in Scripture. 

Jesus says that the one who blasphemes does not have forgiveness, but is in danger or age enduring damnation. Aion in this passage could refer to the rest of the man's life. After death we know he has no forgiveness. Or, it could refer to this age. 

 

[OneLight]

44 minutes ago, Butch5 said:

The only afterlife I believe in is the Resurrection. When Christ returns the dead in Christ will be raised. The spirit that returns to God is not man, it's God's breath or spirit of life. It is something of God, not man. It is the thing that gives man life. The believer will live with the Lord at the Resurrection. I believe the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire which is the second death.

It would seem to be at the end of this age from what I see in Scripture. 

Jesus says that the one who blasphemes does not have forgiveness, but is in danger or age enduring damnation. Aion in this passage could refer to the rest of the man's life. After death we know he has no forgiveness. Or, it could refer to this age. 

 

So, according to you, the spirit of man is not the man himself, but just Gods breath returning to Him?  Let me make sure I understand you correctly.  The flesh returns to dust, the spirit returns to God and the soul await resurrection.  Is this correct?  If so, why would Paul tell us in 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."?

Doesn't the end of this age end when Christ returns as this is the church age? 

As for your explanation of the one who blasphemes His Holy Spirit, it is incorrect.  The word used is not aion (G165), or eons, but aiōnios G166, which I gave the definition for and it does not say anything about an age, but:

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

[Butch5]

11 hours ago, OneLight said:

So, according to you, the spirit of man is not the man himself, but just Gods breath returning to Him?  Let me make sure I understand you correctly.  The flesh returns to dust, the spirit returns to God and the soul await resurrection.  Is this correct?  If so, why would Paul tell us in 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."?

Doesn't the end of this age end when Christ returns as this is the church age? 

As for your explanation of the one who blasphemes His Holy Spirit, it is incorrect.  The word used is not aion (G165), or eons, but aiōnios G166, which I gave the definition for and it does not say anything about an age, but:

1. without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2. without beginning
3. without end, never to cease, everlasting

My understanding is that the body returns to the dust. The spirit which is really breath is not man and  returns to God. The Hebrew and Greek words that are translated breath or spirit, literally mean wind. That is the literal meaning. The English word spirit is a figurative useage of these Hebrew and Greek words. The confusion comes from the English definition of spirit. In English the word spirit has as a definition, a disembodied living being. This is probably the main meaning of the word spirit. However, the Hebrew and Greek words that are translated spirit have no such meaning. They mean wind. There is nothing about these words that means a disembodied living being. The Hebrew and Greek words are being used as a metaphor when they are translated spirit. Jesus gave a good description of this word in John 3.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (Jn. 3:8 KJV)

Jesus said the wind blows where it will and you hear it, but you can't tell where it comes from or where it goes. However, we can see the effects of the wind. It's the same way with angels and demons. They come and go, but you can't see where they come from or where they go. However, we can see the effects of them when they interact with the physical world. This is why they are figuratively called winds, or spirits, they have some of the same qualities as wind. In this passage from John the words wind and Spirit are the same Greek word, pneuma. The translators have indicated two different things here, but Jesus' hearers, and John's readers only saw or heard one word, wind. They had to understand what the passage meant. In our translations the translators has taken it upon themselves to determine what Jesus meant and tell us what He said, rather than letting us read it and figure it out ourselves. That's not a big problem unless the translator misunderstands the passage. How would we understand the passage as one of the original readers/hearers?

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the wind.

Concerning the soul, it ceases to exist as it's two components have separated. The word soul is used two ways in Scripture. It is used concretely of a living being, and abstractly of life. It is also translated life in the Bible.

Regarding 2 Cor. 5, I'll have to address that a little later. It's a bit more involved than I have time for at the moment. Let me just say that the passage is about the Resurrection. It actually begins in chapter 4. Also, remember that Paul refers to the Church as the body. He calls it the body of Christ.

Regarding the one who blasphemes, I think it does make sense. Aionios is the adjective form of aion. It's the same word it's just inflected. the "ios" on the end makes it an adjective. English has words that do this too. Look at the word spirit. It is a noun. The word Spiritual, is just spirit with "ual" on the end. The "ual" turns the noun into an adjective. Spirit and spiritual have the same meaning they are just used differently in a sentence. The noun is a spirit, the adjective means having qualities of the spirit, or qualities of the noun. 

I know the dictionaries give aion a meaning of unending or eternal but that just doesn't fit what we see in the Scriptures. Jesus, the apostles, and Paul, all spoke of the end of the aion. If it ends it's not unending or eternal. One thing we have to remember is that the people who write these works have a belief system that influences these works.

End times isn't my strong suit. I do believe that this age ends when Christ returns. Jesus promised the aionios life in the age to come so I would think that the Lake of Fire would be at the end of this age.