How many resurrections are there?

[TMarcum]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

Sorry, TM but this is a complete mess of human imagination. 

Let's start at the bottom with I saw: It is   Speech: Verb - Tense: Second Aorist - Voice: Active - Mood: Indicative

An Aorist Active Indicative always speaks of an event started and finished in the past.  John wrote AFTER He saw. So of course when he SAW was before he wrote. 

They SAT:   Speech: Verb - Tense: Second Aorist - Voice: Active - Mood: Indicative So it happened in the past.  How long past? The timing of chapter 20 is JUST AFTER the battle of Armageddon and the start of the Millennial reign.  The believers caught up in the pretrib rapture, the Old Testament believers (along with the two witness and the beheaded) caught up at the 7th vial are now these that sat on thrones judging. This shows us the Millennial reign (in the vision) had started. (In reality it is still future).

Was given:   Tense: Aorist - Voice: Passive - Mood: Indicative  Still an event that happened in the past. 

I saw the souls - Sorry, no verb here: the translators messed up making it LOOK like a verb in English.

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Let not twist the words to fit your narrative. The text was translated perfect. The translators that were tasked with translating the bible were much more capable than any alive today. They were scholars who lived closer to when the original language was spoken than we do today. They understood the original text with perfection. They understood which tense to apply and understood the voice and the mood associated better than any alive today. 

So please don't attempt change the tense to fit your position

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, by discrediting the text as translated.

It should be obvious in the vision John saw all these things in his immediate past. (He wrote AFTER he saw.)

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It should be obvious that John's vision of (Rev 20:4) was a continuation of the battle from (Rev 19:21) and the timeline that John started with in (Rev 20:4) was the thrones he saw and they that sat upon them. This was regarding the saints judging the sinners and a lead into the GWT passage of (Rev 20:11). But you insist in inserting 1000 years into the timeline. This is not the case my friend. You are miss interpreting the whole chapter.

Were beheaded:   Tense: Perfect - Voice: Passive - Mood: Participle Sorry, I don't know enough Greek to give an educated answer here.  Maybe Retrobyter could assist.  I do know that some Greek verbs SEEM to give away timing information but in the Greek they don't: as if no "tense" at all: one Greek scholar wrote: "Not inflected to show tense." It could be past, present or future: the Greek gives no information. 

The point John is making is that the Millennial reign has JUST BEGUN, so John could write that will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years. "Lived" and "reigned" are both Aorist Active Indicative which shows us this living and reigning BEGAN in the past. John tells us it will continue until the 1000 years has ended.   Many times the exact meaning in Greek cannot be expressed completly in English. All our verbs SHOW tense. 

John used this Aorist, Active, Indicative many times: MOST of His verbs are of this type.  For the most part, we should get timing information by John's first mention of something. An example is when does God's wrath start? At the 6th seal and in chapter 11, both verbs are of this Aorist Active Indicative type. But the first mention of wrath is at the 6th seal, so we can be sure that is where God's wrath will begin.

I will caution you, for doctrine, DON'T go by our English translations without studying the Greek verbs behind the English. 

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The verb tense of the bible can be trusted. You do not need to reinvent the wheel. It was made perfect the 1st time. 

 

 

[Dennis1209]

On 5/30/2020 at 8:41 PM, Sister said:

1. The beast, 2. The false Prophet & 3. The devil.

Only 2 were cast into the lake of fire at Jesus 2nd Coming.  NOT 3.  One more is going to be thrown in there to join them at a later time (the devil).

Hello Sister,

The way I interpret it, the Lord Jesus is going to rule and reign with an iron rod for 1,000 years [the millennium]. The millennium begins shortly after Jesus's victory at Armageddon and the sheep / goat judgments. Satan will be cast to where the Son of Perdition [Antichrist] and False Prophet are for the millennium; and loosed for a short season at the end of the millennium to once again deceive the nations.

Revelation 20:1 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[TMarcum]

7 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, TMarcum.

NO! DON'T LET CHAPTER DIVISIONS BE YOUR METHOD OF DETERMINATION! Chapter divisions in the Bible are both arbitrary and fallible! They are HUMAN inventions for the sole sake of indexing.

Why not back up a few chapters and begin with chapter 11 when God begins to take His Kingdom?

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The point of starting with (Rev 16:13-14) was to validate that the dragon was with the beast and the FP, as they all three sent out evil spirits unto the earth and the "whole" world to gather the kings to the battle of that great day of the Lord. This was "a" day and not a battle having an intercession of 1000 years. 

Because you cannot see that Rev 20:7 is a continuation of Rev 19:21, with (Rev 20:1-6) having a recapitulation showing the history of the dragon as an introduction. This is done several times all throughout the book of Revelation. It is done again in (Rev 11:3-6) as we see a recapitulation of the two witnesses. This is a recapitulation and not part of the timeline from Rev 11:2. (Rev 11:1-2) starts out and introduces to the 42 months reign of the beast and how the gentiles will trodden under foot the holy city. Then a recapitulation of the 2 witnesses from (Rev 11:3-6), and then back to the timeline in (Rev 11:7) of the beast. I don't was to get off on another rabbit trail, but the chapter is not about the death of the 2 witnesses anyway. This pertains to the death of the saints that are martyred by the beast, once it goes into perdition.

We discussed the recapitulation of (Rev 12:1-7) in another post. This was not part of the timeline. Then you have most of Rev 17 & 18 as a recapitulation that shows the destruction of the city of Babylon, which was destroyed in (Rev 16:12) which dried up the river Euphrates that made a way for the kings of the earth to invade the city Babylon and burn it to the ground. 

Revelation 11:15-19 (KJV)

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying,

"The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (God), and of his Christ (Messiah); and he shall reign for ever and ever!" 

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying,

"We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Wrong. This campaign was begun to be fought a WHOLE lot earlier than Revelation 19! Revelation 19 is just the END battle to finish Yeshua` taking back what is His Land!

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I am not sure why you are focusing on this. I know full well that the campaign started much earlier. I was only referring to the day of the battle in Rev 19:18 & continued in Rev 20:8. And not 1000 years later as the belief that you hold.

 

Also, the battles of Revelation 19:18-21 and Revelation 20:9-10 are fought a THOUSAND YEARS APART! The key to this truth is the incarceration of haSatan!

It's AFTER Revelation 19 that haSatan is chained and locked away in the abussos. He is locked away for 1,000 years while the Messiah reigns with His people who have been resurrected. At the END of the 1,000 years, haSatan is released, and he goes out to incite a rebellion and THEN the battle of Revelation 20:9-10 occurs!

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No, this is a recapulation of the history of the dragon and relationship with the martyred saints. It is not a 1000 year continuation

 

Revelation 19:17-20:15 (KJV)

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven,

"Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

(Notice how here, too, the last phrase that is written is parenthetical, looking forward to 20:7.)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (This part is parenthetical, looking forward to 20:12-13.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ (the Messiah), and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

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All of Rev 20:1-6 is a recapitulation. The timeline clearly specifies that after the little season (which is the 42 month reign of the beast that goes into perdition after ascending from the pit), this is when the dragon will go out to deceive the nations, to gather them to battle, and they went up on the "breadth of the earth". This was already foretold in (Rev 16:14) that they would go unto the earth and the "whole world" to gather the kings to battle.

Certainly you can see this?

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

LOOK AT THE ORDER OF EVENTS!
1. Battle of Revelation 19 is won (19:19-22).
2. The beast and the false prophet are taken and thrown into the Lake of Fire. (19:20)
3. The rest are killed with the sword of Yeshua`s mouth. (19:21)

4. The devil, haSatan, is chained and imprisoned for 1,000 years. (20:3)

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This is a recapitulation. Not part of the timeline

5. While the devil is imprisoned, the Messiah reigns with His people, already raised to life, for that 1,000 years. (20:4-6)

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This is also a recapitulation. Not part of the timeline. Jesus is reigning now his people that are spiritually raised to life (being born again), for "a thousand years" figurative language of the period of salvation.

6. At the end of the 1,000 years, haSatan is released. (20:7)

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This step is before step 1. The 42 monts start when he is released from the pit.

7. HaSatan incites a rebellion. (20:8)
8. The rebellion leads to the battle of Revelation 20:9-10.
9. Fire comes down and defeats the Messiah's enemies. (20:9)
10. The Great White Throne Judgment occurs. (20:10-15)
11. HaSatan is thrown into the Lake of Fire. (20:10)
12. Others were raised to life, and judged, and were thrown into the Lake of Fire, as well. (20:11-15)

There's no "recapitulation"; the two chapters flow into one another!

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The rest of the timeline looks good.

 

 

[TMarcum]

5 hours ago, OneLight said:

I do not agree with the Preterism.  I see most of Revelation as futuristic, which includes the 1000 year reign of Christ after the tribulation.

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I am not a preterist. I only believe a small portion of Revelation has been fulfilled. The main differences between our beliefs is regarding, where we place the 1000 year period.

I am amil, and we believe the 1000 year period is before the tribulation period and not after. We believe the resurrection is at the 2nd coming after the tribulation and then the GWT of judgement.

The amil view in not a new belief. In fact, it was the primary belief from the 1st century up until the late 1800's when John Darby and Cyrus Scofield introduced the premil belief theory.

But their are about 1/3 of the Christians who believe as amil

Since this is what you are teaching, I will not try to convince you otherwise.  That has proven futile in the past and when someone's mind is made up, there is no changing it, unless it is His Holy Spirit doing the changing.

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I just want you to read the bible with your own eyes and rely only on the teaching of pastors, TV evangelists, and seminary school teachings. The teachings of the other books of the bible does not support a premil position. Just for an exercise, take Rev 20:1-6 out of the equation and then tell me what you believe. Then read Rev 20: 1-6 again and see if you view things differently

 

 

[OneLight]

12 minutes ago, TMarcum said:

I just want you to read the bible with your own eyes and rely only on the teaching of pastors, TV evangelists, and seminary school teachings. The teachings of the other books of the bible does not support a premil position. Just for an exercise, take Rev 20:1-6 out of the equation and then tell me what you believe. Then read Rev 20: 1-6 again and see if you view things differently

I have been for over 40 years with the guidance of His Holy Spirit.  I have found very few TV Preachers to be trustworthy when you place what they teach beside scripture.  The only books I use for studies are Greek and Hebrew dictionaries.

As for your suggestion, be extremely careful making such a suggestion.

Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[TMarcum]

11 minutes ago, OneLight said:

I have been for over 40 years with the guidance of His Holy Spirit.  I have found very few TV Preachers to be trustworthy when you place what they teach beside scripture.  The only books I use for studies are Greek and Hebrew dictionaries.

As for your suggestion, be extremely careful making such a suggestion.

Revelation 22:18-19

For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

I was not suggesting to remove it. I was suggesting to read it with it through from chapter 19 (with Rev 20:1-6 covered with your hand), so you can see the transition from chapter 19 to 20 is the same timeline. The verses of (Rev 20:1-6) is a recapitulation of the history of the dragon and not an insertion of another 1000 years, after Christ returns.

Today is the day of salvation. We are not given another 1000 years to make our peace calling with God.

[OneLight]

29 minutes ago, TMarcum said:

I was not suggesting to remove it. I was suggesting to read it with it through from chapter 19 (with Rev 20:1-6 covered with your hand), so you can see the transition from chapter 19 to 20 is the same timeline. The verses of (Rev 20:1-6) is a recapitulation of the history of the dragon and not an insertion of another 1000 years, after Christ returns.

Today is the day of salvation. We are not given another 1000 years to make our peace calling with God.

I won't skip over scripture to appease anyone's theology.  Won't do it.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The 1000 year reign of Christ is futuristic, whether you want to accept that as truth or not.  It's going to happen.

Yes, today is the day for salvation if someone does not know Christ as we never know when our last breath will be.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, TMarcum.

To my statement,

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"First, why didn't John say "two thousand years" if it's been almost 2,000 years ago? He certainly had the knowledge and the ability to write it, if he could write, "144,000" (Greek: hekaton tesserakonta tessares chiliades = "a-hundred forty fours thousands") for the remnant of the children of Israel!"

you said,

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"If the exact number was used rather than figurative language, then we would know the very day that Jesus will return for the 2nd coming. It is not intended for us to know the day of his return."

Truthfully, I don't think a simple thing like "2,000 years" instead of "1,000 years" is going to reveal "the very day that Jesus will return for the 2nd coming." This is a weak answer at best!

When I said,

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"Second, you speak as though the Return of the Messiah (the Christ) has already occurred! It most certainly HAS NOT! Surely you're not attempting to give a Preterist view of Revelation, are you?"

you said,

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"I most certainly am not. When did I say any such thing. The order of the resurrection is Christ the firstfruits, afterward, they that are Christ at his coming. Christ is the firstfruits of those that slept. His resurrection is the 1st order of the resurrection. The 2nd order of the resurrection are those who are his at his coming. Then the end comes. Not 1000 years later.

The end comes when he delivers the kingdom back to God and puts down all power and authority. Not so he can reign another 1000 years and then put down his power and authority (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)."

 

You're not reading 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 correctly, either. The Messiah is reigning from the resurrection of those who belong to Him at His Coming to the time of the End when He has put all His enemies under His feet. Again, death is the LAST enemy that He defeats, not the first! THEN, comes the End, and Yeshua` turns the Worldwide Kingdom over to His Father.

To my statement,

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'Third, your statement, "This was one large battle that spanned the whole earth," is a universalism that should NOT be made of Scripture arbitrarily. Nope, sorry, but that battle, often called "Armageddon," is a LOCAL battle that will be the Messiah taking back the Land of Israel that is HIS Land! "Armageddon" is a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew phrase, "Har Megiddown," meaning the "Mountain of Megiddo." It's a LITERAL place found 18.6 miles southeast of Haifa in Israel, called "Tel Megiddo," just northwest of the intersection between Highway 66 and Highway 65 in Israel. In history, it was a guard house overlooking and protecting the pass through the mountains at the south end of the Valley of Jezreel. The Valley of Jezreel has been the site of a number of battles because it is a natural staging area!'

you said, 

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"I may have misled you if that's what you interpreted. I intended to convey that when the (3) evil spirits of the dragon, the beast, and the FP went out to gather the kings. They went unto the earth and the "whole world" to gather them to the battle of that great day of the Lord (Rev 16:14).

The battle was not put on pause for 1000 years with the beast and FP being put in the LoF in (Rev 19:20) and the dragon being put in the LoF another 1000 years later in (Rev 20:10). The dragon was part of this battle of the great day of the Lord, not a 1000 year battle. The battle was 1 day.  And the Lord didn't just let the dragon escape it.

This is why it is so confusing to you, is because you cannot comprehend that (Rev 20:1-6) is a recapitulation of the history of the dragon and the martyred saints."

 

Nope. There will be no "pause" of 1,000 years in the battle because that battle will be FINISHED at the beginning of the 1,000 years! The SECOND battle will occur at the END of the 1,000 years! Don't think that haSatan, the Beast, and the False Prophet all must have their demise at the same time. God was DONE with the Beast and the False Prophet at the end of the first battle, the Battle of Har-Megiddown, but God has ONE LAST PURPOSE for haSatan - to deceive people into one final rebellion. Thus, his demise comes a thousand years LATER than that of the other two.

Furthermore, there you go again! The battle will NOT be "1 day!" That's naive! Since when does a battle that kills so many people that "the blood will flow to the horses' bridles for the space of 1600 furlongs" take place in a SINGLE DAY?! EVERY physical accomplishment TAKES TIME TO ACCOMPLISH!!! God Himself created the laws of physics and statics and dynamics and fluid dynamics; He will TAKE HIS TIME to accomplish what must be done!

To my statement,

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'It will be the site where the enemies of Yeshua` will think to make a stand and fight back but will turn out to be a VERY bad choice on their part! Before this, however, Yeshua` shall be driving them out of Yhudah ("Judah"), including Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), and across the mountains of Israel into that valley. It's not "the whole earth"; it's "the whole Land!" The Greek word "gee" (spelled gamma-eta, and pronounced "gay") is the translation of the Hebrew word "erets" (spelled alef-reish-tsadday, with the segol [short e] vowel points). Both words mean "land" or "field" or "dirt" or "soil," hence, "earth!" It's not the planet, but the GROUND!

You're not wrong that the beast and the False Prophet were destroyed at the end of the battle; HOWEVER, you're  missing the fact that haSatan - the dragon - was CHAINED UP for a thousand years AFTER the beast and the False Prophet were thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone (Sulfur). It's not until that thousand years LATER that he will be released, incite a rebellion against the Messiah's Kingdom (which will be global by then), and then judged and thrown into that same Lake of Fire and Brimstone (Sulfur).'

 

you said,

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"The dragon was not chained up after the beast and FP was thown in the LoF. The story-line continues in real time in (Rev 20:7). The first 6 verses Rev 1-6) is a recapitulation of the history of the dragon.

Just as (Rev 12:1-6) is a recapitulation of the woman and the man child. The timeline of the woman and remnant of her seed continues at Rev 12:7. The continuation is from the previous chapter 11.

The dragon was shown put in the pit in (Rev 20:1-3), but shown ascending out of the pit in (Rev 11:7) and (Rev 17:8). The dragon was put in the pit with 7 crowns. You can see this in Rev 12:3. When he ascended out of the pit, he gave his power, seat, and authority to the beast that ascended and went into perdition. The beast acquired 3 more crowns from the 2nd beast that ascended out of the earth. 

If you go back and read this, you will see the real timeline of the dragon. The 1000 year period was not dropped in at Rev 20:1-6. It a recapitulation showing his timeline."

 

Nonsense. There's no "recap" or John would more clearly state that fact! When one just reads it at face value, one sees that the dragon is to be punished for his part in the battle, as well! It's simply that his punishment is to be chained in the abyss while the Messiah reigns for a thousand years. THEN, at the END of the 1,000 years, he will be released to do his one last deed! SEVEN TIMES the "thousand years" are mentioned in Rev. 20:1-7! It's not a retelling of history; it is a FUTURE imprisonment! HaSatan is ANYTHING BUT "chained in the abyss" right now! And, I've said it before, and I'll say it again: If Yeshua` the Messiah is reigning right now, then He is the WEAKEST KING THERE HAS EVER BEEN! But, He's NOT reigning right now, and He won't be until He has returned.

To my statement,

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'Yes, this is true, but have you considered just how long it will take to "gather the kings and their armies to the battle of that great day of Eel Shadday?" Furthermore, here's the word "gee" again and the "whole world," which are the Greek words "oikoumenees holees" which mean the "whole INHABITED" world, and for John this would have been the Roman Empire!'

you said,

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"The gathering could not have taken any longer than 42 months. That is all the time the beast had during his little season."

Precisely my point! The whole world couldn't be gathered in that short of a time! Therefore, the scenario you paint is not tenable!

To my statement,

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'Verse 9 means "PATTERNED after," NOT "chronologically after!" The Greek word is "met'" short for "meta," meaning "according to"; it is NOT "husteros," meaning "later!" It's not "epiousa" meaning "following" or "next"; it's not "hexees" meaning "next in order!"

We've had MANY such "days" when the "wicked are destroyed" when God took vengeance on those who disobeyed His commandments! This is not a singular occurrence! It's not a "one time only" event! There will be one such day when the Messiah Yeshua` returns with PASSION and ZEAL to fight for His people Israel!

There will be another such day at the END of the Millennium when fire is rained down upon them because Yeshua` has had enough of them (haSatan, too)! Learn the difference between them and don't mix them up!'

 

you said,

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"The day that fire rained down in Rev 20:10 is the exact same day as it rained down on the beast and FP. Paul tells us this in (2 Thess 2:1-11) that the FP was consumed by the brightness of the coming of the Lord, which was after the working of Satan."

Again, this is NONSENSE! "Fire raining down" does NOT equal "consumed by the brightness of the coming of the Lord!" You're attempting to STRETCH the truth in a vain attempt to FORCE a round peg into the square hole! It's comparing apples to oranges.

To my statement,

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'Verse divisions can be confusing and can mislead many people into thinking the wrong thing. The words "then cometh the end" signify ANOTHER time of Resurrection! As I've said, it's...

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

These indicate THREE significant Resurrections: That of the Messiah Yeshua` Himself (in 30 A.D.); the general Resurrection at the time of the Messiah's Return, and the general Resurrection at the END of the Millennium - the FIRST 1,000 years of the Messiah's reign.'

 

you said,

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'No, there are 2 resurrections: Christ's resurrection is the 1st and afterward they the are Christs at his coming is the 2nd. You cannot turn the statement, "then comes the end when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God", into a resurrection. The delivery of the kingdom to God is not a resurrection my friend.'

I don't have to "turn the statement 'then comes the end when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God' into a resurrection"; it already IS a Resurrection! The whole of 1 Corinthians 15 is about Resurrection!!

To my statement,

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'People SHALL die during the Millennium, and not all of them will be raised to life immediately. Some will just have to wait until the Great White Throne Judgment at the end.

But, again, the "subduing of all His enemies" WILL TAKE TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! That's part of why there even IS a "Millennium" - a "Thousand Years" period!

You're not thinking of verse 29 correctly: He mentions TWO resurrections, the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" or rather "of CONDEMNATION," such as the DECISION from a JUDGMENT, like the GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT! The word "hour" is more like how we use the word "time" in that it's "a time is coming." The Greek word here is NOT "chronos," but the wording is such that we get this picture: "hoti erchetai hoora" means "that is-coming an-hour." It's more indefinite and not a specific, singular moment in history. And, what do you do with the words, "kai nun estin" meaning "and now is?" Yeshua` was again pointing out that HE is the God-chosen source of Resurrection! While He was present, HE would raise the dead and proved it in the three recorded instances (although there were many others not recorded)!'

 

you said,

Quote

 

"I agree that their is a spiritual resurrection that takes place for Christians. But when he said, those that are in the graves will come forth to a resurrection of life and of damnation, this was not in a spiritual sense. There is no spiritual sense to the resurrection of a sinner man. You cannot attach a label to this resurrection as being spiritual in nature. When a sinner comes forth from the grave, is going to be a real grave because he never had a spiritual death to begin with. So give some time to dwell on that.

The resurrection of both good and evil is a physical resurrection from the graves, in the hour they hear his voice."

 

There's no such thing as a "spiritual resurrection," taking place for Christians or anyone else!

To my statement,

Quote

 

'Again, this is a misunderstood English interpretation of what Iyov actually said. Let's look at the context:

Job 14:1-14 (KJV)

1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. 2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not. 3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee? 4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass; 6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.

7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. 8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground; 9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.

10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? 11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: 12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

The Hebrew of the highlighted phrase is "`ad biltiy shaamayim" and means "until a-failure of-[the]-skies." "Hashaamayim," created on Day 2, meaning "the skies," is the environment of the lights that were created on Day 4 of Creation. Such a failure would be with the dimming of those lights, such as in "the sun becoming black as sackcloth of hair, the moon becoming as blood, and the stars of heaven falling to the ground." It does NOT mean a "destruction of the skies!"

When one considers that biltiy comes from baalaah, its root, which in turn means "to become old; to wear out," biltiy may also refer to the skies becoming old and wearing out. This would imply the atmosphere's contamination in pollution and its need for a change. 

I personally don't have a problem with this argument since I believe that the first general Resurrection occurs AT His Second Coming, not 7 years before.

But, it doesn't. As I've said before, Rev. 20:5b does NOT refer to Rev. 20:5a, but to Rev. 20:4. Revelation 20:5a is more parenthetical, looking forward to the rest of the chapter. The Jewish way of thinking, and thus its literature, is not so chronological as it is teleological. It's PURPOSE-driven, not CAUSE-driven! Thus, they would follow the main points of an outline first before going into the subordinate points of the outline. We like to list the subordinate points after we've made one major point before going into the next major point.'

 

you said,

Quote

 

"I am more than happy to go into more detail regarding the MK period. But my belief as amil is not a new belief. It predates the premil belief, which got its legs around the time of John Darby and Cyrus Scofield in the late 1800's. Then Scofield picked up on Darby's work and then developed a reference bible that led the readers into believing the premil theory.

This belief was picked up by seminary schools and by TV evangelist, and then predominated in churches everywhere. The doctrine became main stream doctrine across the nation. To the point, no one even even knew the original beliefs that the forefathers believed.

The church history will prove this out if you are willing to do some research."

 

Are you sure that you are "amil"; that is, "amillennial?" "Amillennialism" is defined as "a belief that there is NO ("A") millennium." I think you must mean "postmillennialism." THEY were the ones who traditionally believed that the Second Coming comes AFTER ("POST") the "millennium."

Anyway, you're not right in your history. "Chiliasm" (the old name for "premillennialism") has been around a LOT longer than "amillennialism." Darby was all about "pretribulational rapturism," which is a BRANCH of premillennialism. It was a tenet of the ancient Messianic Jews as well as the original Baptists to believe in chiliasm. The Messianic Jews, the first Jewish communities that held to Yeshua`s First Coming as the Jewish Messiah they were expecting, adhered to the prophecies that stated that the Messiah would become the great King, descendant of David the King, to rule and reign over the children of Israel in the Last Times.

Postmillennialism practically died out when Israel became a nation again on May 14, 1948, fulfilling the prophecy!

Isaiah 66:5-10 (KJV)

5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word; "Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, 'Let the LORD be glorified': but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."

6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies. 

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 "Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth?" saith the LORD: "shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?" saith thy God.

10 Rejoice ye wit Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:

 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hello Sister,

The way I interpret it, the Lord Jesus is going to rule and reign with an iron rod for 1,000 years [the millennium]. The millennium begins shortly after Jesus's victory at Armageddon and the sheep / goat judgments. Satan will be cast to where the Son of Perdition [Antichrist] and False Prophet are for the millennium; and loosed for a short season at the end of the millennium to once again deceive the nations.

Revelation 20:1 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Shalom, Dennis1209.

You are so VERY close! However, remember that the Beast and the False Prophet are IMMEDIATELY consigned to the Lake of Fire. HaSatan, however, is imprisoned in the Abyss (Greek: abussos = the pit with "no bottom"). He will be released from there after the 1,000 years and after inciting a rebellion against God and His Anointed, he will be thrown likewise into the Lake of Fire.

[Sister]

6 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Hello Sister,

The way I interpret it, the Lord Jesus is going to rule and reign with an iron rod for 1,000 years [the millennium]. The millennium begins shortly after Jesus's victory at Armageddon and the sheep / goat judgments. Satan will be cast to where the Son of Perdition [Antichrist] and False Prophet are for the millennium; and loosed for a short season at the end of the millennium to once again deceive the nations.

Revelation 20:1 (KJV) And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Dennis1209

Amen!

And the saints of that 1st resurrection will be ruling with him.  If it all ends at the Coming, then who are they going to reign over if everyone else is dead?

It's because there will be remnants of the Jews and Gentiles after the Coming;

I love this chapter;

Zechariah 14:1   Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Zechariah 14:2   For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 Zechariah 14:3   Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
 

 Zechariah 14:4   And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

  Zechariah 14:5   And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

  Zechariah 14:6   And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

  Zechariah 14:7   But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

  Zechariah 14:8   And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

  Zechariah 14:9   And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

  Zechariah 14:10   All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

  Zechariah 14:11   And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

  Zechariah 14:12   And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

  Zechariah 14:13   And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

  Zechariah 14:14   And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

  Zechariah 14:15   And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

Zechariah 14:16   And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

  Zechariah 14:17   And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

  Zechariah 14:18   And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

  Zechariah 14:19   This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

  Zechariah 14:20   In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

  Zechariah 14:21   Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

 

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Sister