Jesus vs Michael

[Daniel Marsh]

2 hours ago, ChickenCoop said:

You should have put that information into your first post.  I had no idea what inspired you to start this thread..

True, I had only a minute since my wife was kicking me off the computer to use it. 

[Jayne]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Jude 9 (KJV) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Anyone ever heard a scriptural reason why Satan wanted the body of Moses. As far as I remember, this is the only scriptural occurrence of something like this and strange? 

The Bible does not say.  Any speculation is just ..... speculation.  It is thought-provoking, though and makes one curious.

[missmuffet]

18 hours ago, Daniel Marsh said:

My answer:The archangel Michael is simply who the Bible says he is. He is the archangel Michael. There's not a single verse of scripture that says the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.

"To which of the angels did God ever say, 'Sit at my right hand'?" -- Hebrews 1:13. Jesus could not therefore be the archangel Michael because scripture does say that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God the Father.

"It was not to angels that he has subjected the world to come" -- Hebrews 2:5. You asked me where the Bible says that angels will not judge the world. Here it is. Because the Archangel Michael is an angel, he could not be the Ruler of the world, could he? Since Scripture says Jesus is to be the Judge and ruler, he cannot be the Archangel.

I like the way Ken Taylor puts Hebrews 1:14 in his paraphrased Living Bible: "The angels are only spirit-messengers sent out to help and care for those who are to receive his salvation." Angels do accomplish specific tasks for Yahweh, but they do not and will not "judge" the world. That's very clear from a reading of chapters one and two of Hebrews.

Now, as to who Jesus Christ is, here are scriptures that clearly identify Him as God:
"The Word was God" -- John 1:1. This passage is clearly an echo of Genesis 1:1. It points to the eternal existence of "The Word" (Jesus). Eternal pre-existence is a quality which only God possesses. I like the way the New English Bible translates John 1:1: "What God was, the Word was."
"Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God." -- John 20:28. Unless you want to perform weird mental gymnastics with the syntax of this statement, you have to say that Thomas was saying that Jesus was God. Thomas is not addressing two different persons. He is speaking to Jesus whom he calls both Lord and God.
"From them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all" -- Romans 9:5. Doesn't the apostle Paul clearly identifies Christ as God in this passage?
"In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" -- Colossians 2:9. If all the fullness of the Deity is in Christ, then He is Deity, isn't He? Here's how Bible scholar William Barclay translates Colossians 2:9: "It is in Christ that godhead in all its completeness dwells in bodily form."
"But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever" -- Hebrews 1:8. Isn't the Son here being clearly addressed as "God"? You cannot come to any other conclusion if you correctly analyze the grammar of this sentence. Earlier in verse 7, the writer has talked about what angels are and then uses the linking word "but." Doesn't that conjunction "but" signal that the writer is no longer talking about angels (even archangels)?
"They will call him Immanuel -- which means 'God with us'" -- Matthew 1:23. The title says "God with us." It doesn't say Jesus is "Archangel Michel with us" or "Someone who is like God with us" or "Someone who is almost God with us." It cannot be stated any more clearly than "God with us."
"They will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive" -- Titus 2:10. "Savior" is what Jesus is called over and over again in Scripture. Take a look in the previous chapter of Titus: Titus 1:4. Or look at what is written in 2 Peter 3:18 and 1 John 4:14. We don't have two Saviors; we have one. If the Savior is Jesus, then isn't Paul here identifying him as God?
http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/jehovahe.htm#michael

That is a JW view. 

[Daniel Marsh]

42 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

That is a JW view. 

That is a true statement.     History wise,  Christian Connextion Pastors were part of the original Seventh Day Adventists.

SDA Pastors influenced Charles Taze Russell who started Bible Students movement or International Bible Students.

When Russell died, the new leader of IBS, renamed the USA branch as Jehovah's Witnesses and the Watchtower.

The same exact teachings are in many Arain offshoots  of BSM, IBS,  JWs and SDA movements.   

Here is just one branch tree

more details here: https://slideplayer.com/slide/15212587/

While I found it,  Mormons have a similar splitting a part, One of the churches in the chart below had some influence over one of the false teacher in the above chart.   But, I forget whom below influenced whom above.

 

This may be the link I was thinking of,

"Some among the Churches of Christ have attributed the restorationist character of the Latter Day Saints movement to the influence of Sidney Rigdon, who was associated with the Campbell movement in Ohio but left it and became a close friend of Joseph Smith."  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement#Christian_Connection

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism#Christadelphians

information only https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism#Today

The charts would not post, here are the links to them

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/LDS_Denominations.png

https://www.exposingadventism.com/images/pedigree.gif

 

 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Daniel Marsh
can not figure out how to post the charts last two links

[Daniel Marsh]

maybe this works

[Daniel Marsh]

How JWs came from BS chart,

 

[missmuffet]

This is what the SDA Church believes.

Question: "What is Seventh-day Adventism (SDA), and what do Seventh-day Adventists believe?"

Answer: Seventh-day Adventism is a sect of Christianity that believes, among other things, that worship services should be conducted on the “seventh day” (the Sabbath) instead of on Sunday. There seem to be different "degrees" of Seventh-day Adventism. Some Seventh-day Adventists believe identically to orthodox Christians, other than holding to the Saturday Sabbath. Other Adventists, however, go much further into aberrant doctrine.

Seventh-day Adventism has its roots in Adventism, a 19th-century movement that anticipated the imminent appearance (or advent) of Jesus Christ. The Adventists were also called Millerites because their group was founded by William Miller, a false prophet who predicted Jesus would return in either 1843 or 1844. When Miller’s prediction of Christ’s second coming failed to come to pass, the Millerites disbanded in dismay; this event became known as the “Great Disappointment.” But then a couple of Miller’s followers claimed to have visions to account for the failed prophecy. Instead of coming to earth, Jesus had entered the heavenly temple—thus, Miller was right, after all, they said, except his prophecy had a spiritual fulfillment instead of a physical one. One of the seers who covered for Miller was 17-year-old Ellen G. Harmon, who had her first of 2,000 purported visions in a prayer meeting shortly after Miller’s disgrace. With her vision, Ellen soon became a beacon of hope for disillusioned Millerites. She united Adventist factions and became the spiritual guide for a new religious group.

In 1846, Ellen married James White, an Adventist preacher. Soon they became convinced that Sabbath-keeping was for all Christians. In 1847, Ellen G. White had another vision—this one confirming her new belief that Sabbath-keeping was to be a primary doctrine. The Adventists under Ellen G. White’s influence became Seventh-day Adventists. Ellen G. White’s many visions and writings—she was a prolific writer—greatly shaped the doctrine of Seventh-day Adventism. Today, most Seventh-day Adventists still consider Ellen White to be a prophetess of God, even though many of her prophecies failed to come true. In fact, Seventh-day Adventists consider Revelation 19:10 (“the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”) to be a reference to Ellen G. White’s writings.

In 1855, the Seventh-day Adventists settled in Battle Creek, Michigan, and in May 1863 the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists was officially incorporated. In the next five decades, Ellen G. White wrote nearly 10,000 pages of prophetic material. Included in the visions was the doctrine of “The Great Controversy,” a cosmic war being waged between Jesus and His angelic army and Satan and his. Other visions dealt with healthy eating habits, which Mrs. White called “the gospel of health” (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 6, p. 327). Seventh-day Adventism places restrictions on consuming meat, or “flesh food,” as Adventists call it. “Flesh food is injurious to health, and whatever affects the body has a corresponding effect on the mind and the soul” (The Ministry of Healing, Chapter 24: “Flesh as Food,” p. 316). It is no surprise that, after requiring Sabbath-keeping, Adventists began to add other elements of legalism into their creed.

Interestingly, Kellogg’s Corn Flakes was an Adventist creation: John Harvey Kellogg was a Seventh-day Adventist doctor in Battle Creek who wanted to manufacture a “healthy” vegetarian alternative to “unhealthy” breakfasts containing meat. Meanwhile, Mrs. White kept having visions, and she began teaching the unorthodox doctrines of soul sleep and annihilationism (which contradicts Matthew 25:46).

Other problematic doctrines in Seventh-day Adventism include the teaching that Satan is the “scapegoat” and will bear believers’ sins (The Great Controversy, p. 422, 485)—this is the opposite of what the Bible says about who bore our sins (1 Peter 2:24). Seventh-day Adventism also identifies Jesus as Michael the archangel (Jude 1:9, Clear Word Bible, published by Review and Herald Publishing Association, 1994)—a doctrine that denies the true nature of Christ—and teaches that Jesus entered a second phase of His redemptive work on October 22, 1844, as prophesied by Hiram Edson. And, of course, the Adventist promotion of Sabbath-keeping as a primary doctrine goes against the teaching of Scripture on the matter (see Romans 14:5).

Seventh-Day Adventism is a diverse movement, and not all SDA groups hold to all the doctrines mentioned above. But all Seventh-Day Adventists should seriously consider the following: a recognized prophetess in their church was a teacher of aberrant doctrine, and their church has its roots in the failed prophecies of William Miller.

So, should a Christian attend a Seventh-day Adventist church? Due to the penchant of Adventists to accept extra-biblical revelation and the doctrinal issues mentioned above, we would strongly encourage believers to not get involved in Seventh-day Adventism. Yes, a person can be an advocate of Seventh-day Adventism and still be a believer. At the same time, there are enough potential risks to warn us against joining a Seventh-day Adventist church.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Seventh-Day-Adventism.html

Edited June 14, 2020 by missmuffet

[Daniel Marsh]

17 minutes ago, missmuffet said:

This is what the SDA Church believes.

Question: "What is Seventh-day Adventism (SDA), and what do Seventh-day Adventists believe?"
 

https://www.gotquestions.org/Seventh-Day-Adventism.html

Check the charts I gave, they are based on historical research even by their own SDA Theologians and Historians.

James White and Uriah Smith were both Christian Connextion pastors --- they were Arians.

Google james white and uriah smith

From SDA authors well qualified, 

"I believe a study of the Christian Connection movement, the first indigenous American religious movement, helps clarify what many call "historic Adventism," the Adventism that existed from 1844 to 1888 and beyond. The study offers inspiring insight about the Christian heritage of the movement that became the Seventhday Adventist church.  ...

There is a direct linkage from the Christian Connection
church or Christians, as they called themselves, to the Seventhday Adventist church in the following central areas: 

...

3. Theology--Character as the sole test of fellowship [as in
early Adventism], no creed but the Bible, opposition to
trinitarian beliefs, Holy Spirit as an "essence" rather than
member of the Godhead, arian in its view of Christ, major focus
upon sanctification, opposition to imputationist and
substitutionary views of atonement, strong focus upon importance
of obedience to God's law. 

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/conferences/Docs/UnspecifiedConferences/SomeGreatConnexions.pdf

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/gane-thesis/index.htm

https://smyrna.org/Books/Formulation_of_the_Trinity/The Formulation of the Doctrine of the Trinity.pdf

https://smyrna.org/Books/Who_Is_Telling/Who is Telling the Truth About God.pdf

https://smyrna.org/Books/WDTPB/pdf/Pioneer Nav.pdf

https://smyrna.org/Catalogue.htm

https://www.nonsda.org/egw/egw68.shtml

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/webster/index.htm

Trinity: Understanding God's Love, His Plan of Salvation, and Christian Relationships (Review and Herald, 2002), E. J. Waggoner:

THE TRINITY
ISBN 9780828016841
By: Jerry Allen Moon, Woodrow W. Whidden II, John W. Reeve
 

 

[Rosenberg57]

36 minutes ago, Daniel Marsh said:

Check the charts I gave, they are based on historical research even by their own SDA Theologians and Historians.

James White and Uriah Smith were both Christian Connextion pastors --- they were Arians.

Google james white and uriah smith

From SDA authors well qualified, 

"I believe a study of the Christian Connection movement, the first indigenous American religious movement, helps clarify what many call "historic Adventism," the Adventism that existed from 1844 to 1888 and beyond. The study offers inspiring insight about the Christian heritage of the movement that became the Seventhday Adventist church.  ...

There is a direct linkage from the Christian Connection
church or Christians, as they called themselves, to the Seventhday Adventist church in the following central areas: 

...

3. Theology--Character as the sole test of fellowship [as in
early Adventism], no creed but the Bible, opposition to
trinitarian beliefs, Holy Spirit as an "essence" rather than
member of the Godhead, arian in its view of Christ, major focus
upon sanctification, opposition to imputationist and
substitutionary views of atonement, strong focus upon importance
of obedience to God's law. 

https://documents.adventistarchives.org/conferences/Docs/UnspecifiedConferences/SomeGreatConnexions.pdf

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/gane-thesis/index.htm

https://smyrna.org/Books/Formulation_of_the_Trinity/The Formulation of the Doctrine of the Trinity.pdf

https://smyrna.org/Books/Who_Is_Telling/Who is Telling the Truth About God.pdf

https://smyrna.org/Books/WDTPB/pdf/Pioneer Nav.pdf

https://smyrna.org/Catalogue.htm

https://www.nonsda.org/egw/egw68.shtml

http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/webster/index.htm

Trinity: Understanding God's Love, His Plan of Salvation, and Christian Relationships (Review and Herald, 2002), E. J. Waggoner:

THE TRINITY
ISBN 9780828016841
By: Jerry Allen Moon, Woodrow W. Whidden II, John W. Reeve
 

 

What are you trying to sell?

Speak Plainly.

Deception is of the Devil.

What are you trying to Sell?

What type of Christian do you consider yourself to Be?

[OneLight]

44 minutes ago, Rosenberg57 said:

What are you trying to sell?

Speak Plainly.

Deception is of the Devil.

What are you trying to Sell?

What type of Christian do you consider yourself to Be?

May I suggest you begin reading the thread from the very beginning and see for yourself.