Postmillennialism: Christendom's Bright Cheerful View Of The Future Of The Human Race.

[David1701]

14 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.

No, sir. It's not about a "spiritual people." (What does that even mean?!) The word "spiritual" is SO MISUSED!

No, the RESURRECTED "MESSIAH" will also rule over God's PHYSICAL people (Israel), to which HAVE BEEN ADDED, AND SHALL CONTINUE TO BE ADDED, THE GENTILES!

Ephesians 2:11-22 (KJV)

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision" by that which is called the "Circumcision" in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were ...

without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and
strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and
without God in the world: 

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh (close). 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Verse 12 implies that NOW, being in the Messiah Yeshua`, you ...

HAVE a Messiah,
are NO LONGER aliens, strangers, or foreigners FROM THE CITIZENSHIP OF ISRAEL,
HAVE hope, and 
ARE with God!

And, Gavri'el (Gabriel) did NOT say that He would rule over a "spiritual people!"

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end!"

Remember how Paul worded things in Romans 11:

Romans 11:11-32 (KJV)

11 I say then, "Have they (the children of Israel) stumbled that they should fall (permanently)?" GOD FORBID: but rather through their (temporary) fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the children of Israel) to jealousy. 12 Now if the (temporary) fall of them (the children of Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (the children of Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead (the Resurrection)? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy (set apart), the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then,

"The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in."

20 Well ("Okay," drawn out like Jeff Goldblum does in "Independence Day"); because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but FEAR: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

27 "For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' (the patriarchs') sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (That is, God doesn't change His mind about His gifts and calling.) 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Understand? This is why we in Messianic Judaism find it so important that Gentiles who call themselves "Christians" learn the Jewish heritage of their faith!

What I meant by "spiritual people" was the saved (whether Jew or Gentile), as contrasted with the nation of Israel over which King David ruled, which contained some saved and a lot of unsaved.  They are not all Israel who are of Israel.

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, David1701 said:

What I meant by "spiritual people" was the saved (whether Jew or Gentile), as contrasted with the nation of Israel over which King David ruled, which contained some saved and a lot of unsaved.  They are not all Israel who are of Israel.

Shalom, David1701.

But, don't you yet see? That is NOT how the Scriptures divide peoples! Believers should not be called "spiritual" nor should they be labeled the "saved!" Besides that, how does one know which is which? A person black with sin and bad practices may or may not be a POTENTIAL believer! He may look like a Hell's Angel biker on the outside and be struggling with conviction on the inside! One should not be quick to make judgment.

Take a look at Paul: He was a very religious and pious Jew, a "Separatist" = a "Paruwsh" = a "Pharisee," and a MURDERER! He was one of those the Scriptures say "thought He was doing God a favor." Yet, look at what one short meeting with the Messiah did for him!

Furthermore, we've all met a person who looked, for all intents and purposes, like the "real deal" on the outside but was full of deceit, and left the faith when things didn't go as he or she expected. We don't really know who will comprise the set of "Believers" when the Messiah returns, and He asked,

Luke 18:8b (KJV)

8 ... "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

And the Greek is worded in such a way to expect a NEGATIVE RESPONSE!

And, let's be frank: Believers in the churches today don't use the right terminology. If the Messiah rescues a village from attempted genocide, that whole village is "saved!" THAT'S how the Scriptures use that word. Even the term "justification" must be qualified, because there is SELF justification (which is wrong) and justification by God (which is what the Scriptures call it when someone is "born again")!

Those who have this nifty, little formula, like the Romans Road to Salvation (a tract that was used quite a bit in the Baptist church in which I grew up), have a bit of a problem when it comes to verses like 1 John 5:1:

1 John 5:1 (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ (Yeshua` is the Messiah) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat (God the Father) loveth him (Yeshua` the Messiah) also that is begotten of him (God the Father).

Where's the "death, burial, and resurrection" in THAT?! And yet, that is PRECISELY what will happen with the Jews when the Messiah returns and fights for them!

And, so we read,

Isaiah 66:7-16 (KJV)

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 "Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth?" saith the LORD: "shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?" saith thy God.

10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: 11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory. 12 For thus saith the LORD,

"Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem." 

14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies. 15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many!

Indeed, this has already begun to happen since 1967!

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, David1701 said:

What I meant by "spiritual people" was the saved (whether Jew or Gentile), as contrasted with the nation of Israel over which King David ruled, which contained some saved and a lot of unsaved.  They are not all Israel who are of Israel.

Shalom, David1701.

I just wanted to add one thing: The verse that you quoted (without citation) is found in Romans 9:6:

Romans 9:1-18 (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were ACCURSED FROM CHRIST for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. ("Truth!")

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but,

"In Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Genesis 21:12)

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh (through Hagar or Keturah), these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise (through Isaac) are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise,

"At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." (Genesis 18:14)

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her,

"The elder shall serve the younger." (Genesis 25:23)

13 As it is written,

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Malachi 1:2-3)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid! 15 For he saith to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (Exodus 33:19)

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,

"Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Exodus 9:16)

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

As one can see from the context, this is talking about the family tree of Avraham, and how the lineage was traced through Yitschaq ("Isaac") and Ya`aqov ("Jacob"). I believe, based on this context, that verse 6 is talking about the children of Israel which are NOT part of the nation of Israel because they DIDN'T COME HOME after the Captivity!

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.But, don't you yet see? That is NOT how the Scriptures divide peoples! Believers should not be called "spiritual" nor should they be labeled the "saved!"

Those who have been born again are described as spiritual and saved.  I don't know which Bible you read, if you have not noticed this.

1 Cor. 2:12-15 (KJV)

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

This contrasts the natural (i.e. unregenerate) man with the spiritual (i.e. born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit).

Rom. 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Do you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead?  If so, then you are saved.

Rom. 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Have you called on the name of the Lord, in faith?  If so, then you are saved.

Rom. 8:24 (KJV) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Do you hope in the Lord?  If so, then you have been saved.

Do I need to supply any more examples?

Quote

Besides that, how does one know which is which?

By their fruit you will know them.

Quote

A person black with sin and bad practices may or may not be a POTENTIAL believer! He may look like a Hell's Angel biker on the outside and be struggling with conviction on the inside! One should not be quick to make judgment.

This is a separate issue.

Quote

Take a look at Paul: He was a very religious and pious Jew, a "Separatist" = a "Paruwsh" = a "Pharisee," and a MURDERER! He was one of those the Scriptures say "thought He was doing God a favor." Yet, look at what one short meeting with the Messiah did for him!

God can save anyone; but, until He does, the person is unsaved and unspiritual.

Quote

Furthermore, we've all met a person who looked, for all intents and purposes, like the "real deal" on the outside but was full of deceit, and left the faith when things didn't go as he or she expected. We don't really know who will comprise the set of "Believers" when the Messiah returns, and He asked,

I always had doubts about the ones I know who went back into the world.  Being born again changes you inside DRAMATICALLY.  If this has happened, then there will be evidence of it.

[David1701]

6 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.

I just wanted to add one thing: The verse that you quoted (without citation) is found in Romans 9:6:

Romans 9:1-18 (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that myself were ACCURSED FROM CHRIST for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. ("Truth!")

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but,

"In Isaac shall thy seed be called." (Genesis 21:12)

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh (through Hagar or Keturah), these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise (through Isaac) are counted for the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise,

"At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son." (Genesis 18:14)

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) 12 It was said unto her,

"The elder shall serve the younger." (Genesis 25:23)

13 As it is written,

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." (Malachi 1:2-3)

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid! 15 For he saith to Moses,

"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (Exodus 33:19)

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh,

"Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth." (Exodus 9:16)

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

As one can see from the context, this is talking about the family tree of Avraham, and how the lineage was traced through Yitschaq ("Isaac") and Ya`aqov ("Jacob"). I believe, based on this context, that verse 6 is talking about the children of Israel which are NOT part of the nation of Israel because they DIDN'T COME HOME after the Captivity!

Oh good grief!

The contrast is between those who genuinely believe in the Lord and those who are Jewish by human descent, but do have real faith in the Lord.

[luigi]

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

 

Shalom, luigi and Last Daze.

The "gospel" that is to be preached in the whole world is that heralded by the Messiah Yeshua` - the gospel of the KINGDOM!

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching (heralding) the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying,

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

When He left them, this was still the gospel that they understood:

Acts 1:1-11 (KJV)

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but "wait for the promise of the Father, which," saith he, "ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,

"Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" 

7 And he said unto them,

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said,

"Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

And, in Yeshua`s own discourse He delivered upon Har HaZeitiym ("the Mount of Olives"), He said,

Matthew 24:9-14 (KJV)

9 "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

It was to this "gospel" that Paul assented for in Romans he said,

Romans 10:14-15 (KJV)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (herald, town cryer)? 15 And how shall they preach (herald), except they be sent? as it is written,

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

And, this "gospel" was found in Isaiah 52:7:

Isaiah 52:5-10 (KJV)

5 "Now therefore, what have I here," saith the LORD, "that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl," saith the LORD; "and my name continually every day is blasphemed. 6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I."

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion,

"Thy God reigneth!"

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. 9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. 10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.

Paul merely ADDED to that gospel the ADDITIONAL good news that, although the King Apparent (the Messiah) of God had been rejected, crucified, and buried, He was also raised to life again by His Father!

1 Corinthians 15:1-8 (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached (heralded) unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas (Kefa, "Peter"), then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Good morning Retrobar,

Ever wonder why the end has never come when supposedly the gospel has already been preached throughout the world? It is because the gospel preached was not believed by those who supposedly preached the gospel of the kingdom of Christ. The Conquistadors who killed and or enslaved the indigenous peoples throughout Central and South America in the name of Christ did not believe in the Gospel of the kingdom of Christ. Neither did the Colonizers who killed or removed to reservations the indigenous peoples in North America believe in loving their neighbors. Right now the world seems to be headed into a lot more of hate your neighbor than love your neighbor. It seems to me that this hatred towards each other that is driven by our love for material goods (idols) will climax with the beasts' system, during which time the Lords true gospel of loving our neighbor will be preached throughout the world, and at the conclusion of which the end will come for the dragon  and beasts' system, and the Lord will commence to reign.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

[luigi]

On 7/18/2020 at 10:23 AM, Last Daze said:

Exactly.  And the fact that it took nearly two millennia doesn't have a bearing on the sequencing.

I don't know what you are referring to by a bearing on sequencing? I do agree with your other claim to another here about it being spiritual Israel who constitute true Israel, as Romans 9 corroborates. 

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

[Retrobyter]

On 7/19/2020 at 7:12 PM, David1701 said:

Those who have been born again are described as spiritual and saved.  I don't know which Bible you read, if you have not noticed this.

1 Cor. 2:12-15 (KJV)

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

This contrasts the natural (i.e. unregenerate) man with the spiritual (i.e. born again and indwelt by the Holy Spirit).

Shalom, David1701.

Wow. You guys NEVER check the Greek, do you?! First, understand that ...

the Greek word for "soul" is "psuchee," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta," and
the Greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma," spelled "pi-nu-epsilon-upsilon-mu-alpha."

In all of 1 Corinthians chapters 2, 3, 9, 10, 12, 14, and 15, these words have been modified to be ADJECTIVES: "psuchikos," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-iota-kappa-omicron-sigma," and ...
"pneumatikos," spelled "pi-nu-epsilon-upsilon-mu-alpha-tau-iota-kappa-omicron-sigma." And, sometimes, by changing the omicron to an omega, modified to be ADVERBS.

We've got a word, "spiritual," but we DON'T have an adequate word for "psuchikos." It should be something like "soulual," but for some reason, we didn't get that word. Instead, we got "natural," as though "nature" = "soul." Go figure.

The truth is that NEITHER "spiritual" nor "natural/soulual" are adequate translations of these words. When one goes to chapter 15, one will see how the words were used with regard to the Resurrection.

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up?" and "with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but ...
there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes, and
another of birds. 
40 There are also celestial bodies (Greek: soomata epourania = "bodies from-above-the-sky"), and
bodies terrestrial (Greek: soomata epigeia = "bodies from-above/upon-the-earth"):
but the glory of the celestial (Greek: toon epouranioon doxa = "the of-those from-above-the-sky brightness") is one, and the glory of the terrestrial (Greek: hee toon epigeioon doxa = "the of-those from-above/upon-the-earth brightness") is another. 
41 There is one glory of the sun (Greek: allee doxa heeliou = "a-particular brightness of-sun"), and
another glory of the moon (Greek: allee doxa seleenees = "a-particular brightness of-moon"), and
another glory of the stars (Greek: allee doxa asteroon = "a-particular brightness of-stars"):
for one star differeth from another star in glory (Greek: asteer gar asteros diafeerei en doxee = "a-star for from-a-star differs in brightness").

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead (ones).

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 
44 It is sown a natural body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "an-air-breathing body"); 
it is raised a spiritual body (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "an-air-BLASTING body").

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

The first man Adam was made a living soul (Greek: psucheen zoosan = Hebrew: l-nefesh chayaah = "[to]-an-air-breather living"); (Genesis 2:7)

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (Greek: pneuma zoo-opoioun = "a-wind/blast-of-air life-giving"). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 

47 The first man is of the earth (Greek: ek gees = "from earth/ground/dirt"), earthy (Greek: choikos = "dusty"):
the second man is the Lord from heaven (Greek: ex ouranou = "from sky"). 
48 As is the earthy (Greek: choikos = "dusty" singular),
such are they also that are earthy (Greek: choikoi = "dusty" plural): and
as is the heavenly (Greek: epouranios = "from-above-the-sky" singular),
such are they also that are heavenly (Greek: epouranioi = "from-above-the-sky" plural). 
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (Greek: choikos = "dusty" singular),
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (Greek: epouranios = "from-above-the-sky" singular).

And, THAT is what "spiritual" means! It means to be an heir of an air-BLASTING body in the Resurrection!

Quote

Rom. 10:9 (KJV) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Do you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead?  If so, then you are saved.

Rom. 10:13 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Have you called on the name of the Lord, in faith?  If so, then you are saved.

Rom. 8:24 (KJV) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Do you hope in the Lord?  If so, then you have been saved.

Do I need to supply any more examples?

I've heard all this from the time I was born ... LITERALLY! I went to church my first Sunday after birth and didn't miss a "time when the doors of the church were open" until I was twelve and had the mumps! I was born again when I had just turned 6 years old, rededicated my life at 13, and surrendered to be a servant of God when I was 16.

BUT, in EVERY CASE above, the statement you SHOULD be using is "If so, then you are TO BE saved!" See, this is because "to be saved" means "to be rescued" or "to be delivered." The words are "THOU SHALT BE SAVED!" and "SHALL BE SAVED" and "we are SAVED (RESCUED) by HOPE (CONFIDENCE)" that is unseen! That's a FUTURE "salvation!"

Look at the WHOLE ARGUMENT of Romans 8:

Romans 8:9-25 (KJV)

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba (Hebrew for "Daddy"), Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest (down payment) expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it!

That's also what Paul was saying in Romans 10!

And, don't forget: We also have this promise.

1 John 5:1-3, 9-12 (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah to be King) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

...

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

And, John had already said,

1 John 3:14-24 (KJV)

 14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? 18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. 20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

So, we keep His commandments: (1) to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind by believing on the authority of His Son, Yeshua` the Messiah of God, and (2) to love one another!

Quote

By their fruit you will know them.

This is a separate issue.

God can save anyone; but, until He does, the person is unsaved and unspiritual.

I always had doubts about the ones I know who went back into the world.  Being born again changes you inside DRAMATICALLY.  If this has happened, then there will be evidence of it.

I also believe this is true. If a person is truly "born again," then he or she cannot be "unborn!" Therefore, he or she who "went back into the world" never truly left it! They weren't "born from above" at all!

[Retrobyter]

On 7/20/2020 at 8:01 AM, luigi said:

I don't know what you are referring to by a bearing on sequencing? I do agree with your other claim to another here about it being spiritual Israel who constitute true Israel, as Romans 9 corroborates. 

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Shalom, luigi.

Oh, brother. LOOK AT THE CONTRAST!!! The "children of the flesh" were those who were born of Avraham ("Abraham") by fleshly means - human attempts to "help God out" with His promise. These included Ishma'el and his heirs and all the children of his later concubine Ketuvah! The "children of the promise" were Yitschaq ("Isaac") and his heirs! Paul then further subdivides these "children of the promise" into the children of Esav ("Esau," who was hated by God) and the children of Ya`aqov ("Jacob," who was loved by God) who became Yisra'el ("Israel"), in verses 10-13!

This has NOTHING to do with a "spiritual Israel!"

[Retrobyter]

On 7/20/2020 at 7:46 AM, luigi said:

Good morning Retrobyter [corrected],

Ever wonder why the end has never come when supposedly the gospel has already been preached throughout the world? It is because the gospel preached was not believed by those who supposedly preached the gospel of the kingdom of Christ. The Conquistadors who killed and or enslaved the indigenous peoples throughout Central and South America in the name of Christ did not believe in the Gospel of the kingdom of Christ. Neither did the Colonizers who killed or removed to reservations the indigenous peoples in North America believe in loving their neighbors. Right now the world seems to be headed into a lot more of hate your neighbor than love your neighbor. It seems to me that this hatred towards each other that is driven by our love for material goods (idols) will climax with the beasts' system, during which time the Lords true gospel of loving our neighbor will be preached throughout the world, and at the conclusion of which the end will come for the dragon  and beasts' system, and the Lord will commence to reign.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Shalom, again, luigi.

OR RATHER, it's because the "gospel" that is "preached" today is LACKING the "gospel of the Kingdom!" By not truly heralding the "gospel of the Kingdom," the "gospel of the Kingdom" has YET TO BE "preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations!" By not heralding the TRUE Kingdom to come, we have been FAILING to spread that message to all nations!

Again, tie together the messages of Yeshayahuw ("Isaiah") and Sha`uwl ("Saul," surnamed "Paul"):

Isaiah 52:1-10 (KJV)

1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.

2 Shake thyself from the dust; arise, and sit down, O Jerusalem: loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.

3 For thus saith the LORD,

"Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money."

4 For thus saith the Lord GOD,

"My people went down aforetime into Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. 
5 Now therefore, what have I here," saith the LORD, "that my people is taken away for nought? they that rule over them make them to howl," saith the LORD; "and my name continually every day is blasphemed! 
6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I!"

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings (gospel), that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good (gospel), that publisheth salvation (rescue; deliverance); that saith unto Zion,

"Thy God reigneth!"

8 Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion.

9 Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.

10 The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation (rescue; deliverance) of our God!

Romans 10:8-15 (KJV)

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach (herald); 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus (your Master is Yeshua`), and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (rescued; delivered). 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation (rescue; deliverance). 11 For the scripture saith,

"Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed (disappointed)." (Isaiah 28:16)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For

"whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (rescued; delivered)." (Joel 2:32)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (a herald; town cryer)? 15 And how shall they preach (herald), except they be sent? as it is written,

"How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Isaiah 52:7)

And, if you need more convincing, look at the context of Joel 2:32!

Joel 2:12-32; 3:1-21 (KJV)

12 "Therefore also now," saith the LORD, "turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:" 

13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. 14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: 16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. 17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say,

"Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, 'Where is their God?'"

18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. 19Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people,

"Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: 20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things."

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. 22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. 23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 "And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.

28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. 

1 "For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land. 3 And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.

4 "Yea, and what have ye to do with me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render me a recompence? and if ye recompense me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head; 5 Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things: 6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border! 

7 "Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head: 8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it."

9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles;

"Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about:

thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD."

12 "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great."

14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

17 "So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more. 

18 "And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim. 19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.

20 "But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation. 21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion."

Paul USED this context in Romans 10; he didn't CONTRADICT it, nor did he HIJACK it for his own purposes!