The Imminency Of Christ's Sign Return For The Rapture Of The Church

[WilliamL]

7 hours ago, Uriah said:

I am reading the sixth seal being opened and the world is seeing JESUS, causing them to cower in fear and hide. Seeing Him will be at the END..."the great day of His wrath has come."                                                                      The previous seals seem to me to be an overview of what goes on in the tribulation leading up to the end.

Exactly right. The tribulation, the rapture, the wrath, in that order.

[Uriah]

1 hour ago, WilliamL said:

Exactly right. The tribulation, the rapture, the wrath, in that order.

If I am understanding you properly, this is the "pre-wrath" version. I do not hold to that one. As I see it we will be here up to the end.

[WilliamL]

46 minutes ago, Uriah said:

If I am understanding you properly, this is the "pre-wrath" version. I do not hold to that one. As I see it we will be here up to the end.

If so, we would have to go through the wrath of God, which begins at the 6th Seal. But "God did not appoint us to wrath." 1 Thes. 5:9 This is why the elect must be taken up and out at the appearance of Christ, "immediately after" the 6th Seal's cataclysms. Matt. 24:29 That wrath is spoken of later (many times) during the period of the Trumpets and Bowls, but never during the first 6 Seals.

 

[Uriah]

23 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

If so, we would have to go through the wrath of God, which begins at the 6th Seal. But "God did not appoint us to wrath." 1 Thes. 5:9 This is why the elect must be taken up and out at the appearance of Christ, "immediately after" the 6th Seal's cataclysms. Matt. 24:29 That wrath is spoken of later (many times) during the period of the Trumpets and Bowls, but never during the first 6 Seals.

 

The context of 1 Thes 5:9 is about whether we are alive or "asleep" when Jesus comes. What do you say about the great multitude of Christians in Rev 7?           

[not an echo]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:01 AM, RonaldBruno said:

On 9/27/2020 at 12:09 AM, not an echo said:

how can we be more assured of what is counterfeit and what is genuine?

Well the Bible is truth. So when we discuss prophecies in the Bible they are all true. The problem is with the interpretations. Satan's primary goal is to keep people away from Christ, the truth. Christians who misinterpret eschatology aren't necessarily sinning or doing Satan's work, they are just not understanding future events.

What I am saying has nothing to do with whether the Bible is truth.  For me, that the Bible is truth is a given.

On 9/27/2020 at 10:01 AM, RonaldBruno said:

On 9/27/2020 at 12:09 AM, not an echo said:

In other words, if the characteristics of the genuine were mastered, the counterfeits became easier to spot.

Fyi, the word "genuine" is an adjective. You need to put a noun somewhere in the sentence, like the genuine person, thing, book, etc.

 If you are referring to the KJV as the genuine version, that would be in error. The original Greek or Hebrew manuscripts are.

On 9/27/2020 at 10:01 AM, RonaldBruno said:

On 9/27/2020 at 12:09 AM, not an echo said:

First of all, in Jesus' Olivet Discourse, He spoke of the "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matt. 24:15) as His lead-in to what He says concerning a coming  time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matt. 24:21).  The capstone to this time that Jesus spoke about is His Second Advent and the Battle of Armageddon (Matt. 24:23-28 with Rev. 19:11-21).  Has this been fulfilled?  I'll let you draw your on conclusion, but before you do...

Luke's parallel account of Jesus' discourse speaks to this and says some things of relevance that indicates that these will be "the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" (Lk. 21:22).  Has this been fulfilled?  Again, I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do...

In Revelation 10, John sees "a little book open" (vs. 2).  In hard connection with this "little book" and central to the focus upon it are these words, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to His servants the prophets" (vs. 7).

In the last chapter of Daniel's little book of prophecy, he is told concerning his book these words, "But thou, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:  many shall run to and fro and knowledge shall be increased" (12:4).  Further, verses 8-10 read, "And I heard, but I understood not:  then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?  And He said, Go thy way Daniel:  for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.  Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried;  but the wicked shall do wickedly:  and none of the wicked shall understand;  but the wise shall understand."  According to my understanding, or math, the "little book open" in Revelation 10 is the little book of Daniel, which interrelates more so than any other prophetic book with what is fixing to take place in The Revelation---and it contains the prophecy in question,.  Has what John saw from this point in The Revelation and beyond taken place?  While here, has anything that John saw beyond the opening of the 5th Seal taken place?  I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do...

Paul spoke about something that was going to take place before Christ's Second Advent, that being that "a falling away" would happen first and that the "man of sin" would be revealed, "the son of perdition" (II Thess. 2:3).  Has this happened?  Don't forget that this man of sin is to be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Second Advent (II Thess. 2:8).  Again, has this happened?  I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do...

The "little book open" is the focus of all of Revelation 10.  The very next thing we see concerns "the Temple of God" and the occurrence of "worship therein" (Rev. 11:1).  After this, the very next thing we see concerns two 3-1/2 year periods of time, which would equal seven years of time, or a week of years.  The much discussed (by our generation) Temple of God is presently non-existent.  Is another one going to be built?  Paul gives us a little commentary on some worship that is occurring in some  future Temple of God.  Concerning the "man of sin" and "son of perdition" he says, "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;  so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God" (II Thess. 2:4).  Has this been fulfilled that Paul is talking about?  I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do, don't forget that in close connection with this man of sin and what he will do, Paul says that he will be destroyed by the brightness of Christ's Second Advent (II Thess. 2:8).  Once again, has this been fulfilled?  Once again, I'll let you draw your own conclusion, but before you do...

Back to the Olivet Discourse, Jesus said, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)" (Matt. 24:15).  As I see it, the words "whoso readeth" are not alluding to that person who may be reading the Olivet Discourse at the time, but that person who reads the prophecies of Daniel.  As I see it, we have some good information given us in Daniel 9:27 with which to do some math.  And, again, Jesus' words concerning this "abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" is His lead-in to what He says concerning a coming time of "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be (Matt. 24:21).  And again, the capstone to this time that Jesus spoke about is His Second Advent and the Battle of Armageddon (Matt. 24:23-28 with Rev. 19:11-21).  Once again, has this been fulfilled?  I'll let you draw your on conclusion, but before you do, consider my following view of some other things that I feel interrelate with Daniel's 70th Week prophecy...

One of these days this world is going to come to a close.  As I see it, that is what the Seven Sealed Book that John saw God holding in His right hand is all about (Rev. 5:1).  You've just got to know that a book---sealed with seven seals---being held by Almighty God---in the throne room of Heaven---around which so much attention is being given---would have to be a most important book.  As I see it, and in harmony with the opening three verses of The Revelation (its foundation), the seals of this book---every one of them---pertain exclusively to the era of the Church.  The New Testament Church was not a part or factor in the fulfilling of the first 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy.  It would not be a surprising thing if the Church was not slated to be a part or factor in the fulfilling of the 70th Week---even if untrue.  Based on the evidence as I see it, I believe it to be certainly true.  As many believe, the Church will be raptured at the opening of the 6th Seal, and for me, at the time of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" (Matt. 24:30-31), after which the Seven Sealed Book, which I believe could rightly be entitled THE DAY OF THE LORD will be opened.  The Day of the Lord is what this book is all about---every single page.  Upon its opening, what transpires---along with what just transpired---will effect a major portion of a world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week.  The same day that the rapture occurs, the first four trumpets can be sounded (Rev. 8).  I'm convinced they will be.  There is no related time frame given that would prohibit such a view.  In harmony with Scripture and other evidences, I am also convinced of the possibility that it is what is in our hemisphere that will be the "third part" destroyed at this time.  And, there will be some other effects.  This would mean that two major elements of the world stage reset for the fulfilling of Daniel's 70th Week may be taken care of in very short order, even within a day.  These two elements would be the removal of the Church and what is in our hemisphere, so that for the fulfilling of the last week of Daniel's prophecy, the focus will be brought to bear upon Israel and the lands of the Bible days---ONCE AGAIN---AS DURING THE FIRST 69 WEEKS.  As soon as the rest of the stage is fully reset (Rev. 9), John is shown the little book of Daniel open (Rev. 10), whereupon we immediately find the first real evidences that the 70th Week has indeed begun (Rev. 11).  This understanding brings to light another interesting possibility relating to Christ's Second Advent, the event which will bring Daniel's 70th Week to a close.  That possibility is that "every eye" will see Him simultaneously and in Person in a very natural way, as there won't be any eyes left in the world at that time except those on Israel's side of the earth.  Said another way, as the sun is very visible to every eye in Israel's hemisphere at noon time in Israel, so will THE SON be very visible to every eye at this time.  And, without any help from man's technology.  Of course, God can effect the thing of "every eye" seeing Christ simultaneously and in Person any way He wants to.  Sometimes He just reveals to us how He wants to. 

This is some of what I am seeing relating to the future, all rooted in what we find in Scripture.  And, with this understanding there has been such a coming together of the puzzle pieces of prophecy, that for me, nothing else even compares.  Am I right or wrong?  I may be wrong.  And, even if I'm right, partially right, or on the right track, it's not something that I really desire to argue about.  Rather, my putting this forth is just something that is really on my heart to do, something for my other brothers and sisters in Christ to consider.  Beyond that, my goal would simply be to help those who are interested to understand more fully what it is that I am seeing and how it will hold up under close Bible scrutiny.  I'm just another fellow Christian who has been helped by Christ's Spirit to understand some things (John 16:13).

Concerning Daniel 9:24-27 (Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy), I see this as being the hub around which Daniel chapters 7-12 revolve. 

First of all,  about Daniel 9; why don't you go back to the beginning of the chapter and find out what it is about?

Daniel is praying to God and asking Him about the desolation (God's punishment leading to the destruction and thereafter, emptiness, banishment) of Jerusalem and his people - that's it. God answers him through Gabriel and simply tells him how long it will be. He gives him specific details surrounding this time period, 490 years (not 2500 years). God does not change His mind, nor does He change the future. Jesus arrived after 69th week and was cut off in the middle of the 70th week.

His torture and crucifixion was an abomination that led to the desolation of the Jews and destruction of the  Temple. Jesus fulfilled that chapter in history.

You and many others who hold to the 70th week/gap theory are conflating scriptures with future end time events that have nothing to do with His first coming and the destruction of Jerusalem. Daniel had many visions and most of them pertained to specific events. Chapter 9 has nothing to do with chapter 12, nor any future events in Revelation.

The Jews have been desolate since Christ. Christ came and on the wing of many abominations, He was slain. That led to their desolation (emptiness), destruction of Jerusalem and scattering the Jews throughout the world for 1900 years. Then they were brought back, Israel became a nation and Jerusalem recaptured.

Their blindness will be removed when Christ returns. The consummation of all prophecy will be fulfilled.

According to my understanding of Scripture and the book of Daniel, the vision spoken of by Gabriel in 9:23 needs to be understood as being the vision of chapter 8, concerning which Daniel says this:  "And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days;  afterward I rose up, and did the king's business;  and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it" (8:27).  Further, the vision of chapter 8 connects with the vision of chapter 7, and both of these are expounded further by the 70 Weeks prophecy, which also connects with chapters 10, 11, and 12.  Again, Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy (9:24-27) is the hub around which chapters 7-12 revolve.  A key to understanding this is what is mentioned along the way relating to the end (e.g., chp. 7 is full;  8:17;  8:19;  8:23;  chp. 9 contains the prophecy;  10:14;  11:36;  11:40;  12:1;  12:4;  12:8-10).  Of course, all of this also expounds King Nebuchadnezzar's dream (2:31-45) as well.

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 10/4/2020 at 7:27 AM, Diaste said:

On 9/30/2020 at 11:11 PM, not an echo said:

Hello again Diaste,

Beyond the other things I've said on this subject (which I certainly see as being scripturally solid), I've still not got a good handle on where you are coming from.  Perhaps your answer to this question will help me best:  Do you consider yourself a Christian?  I am not meaning to be facetious, for I am believing that you are a brother in Christ.  It's just easy to get the impression that you have some hang up about the term Christian.  With things that you have said, I could see you kinda wishing that this forum was named Worthy In Christ Forums or Worthy Seed of Abraham Forums, or maybe even Worthy Branch Of The Olive Tree Forums, all of which would be equally fine with me.  With the path you have taken in response to what I have said, I can't help but be reminded of Paul's words:  "strive not about words to no profit" (II Tim. 2:14).  I fail to see what is to be gained by what you have said.

It's not the word itself. I don't have any emotions about it and I don't object to people labeling themselves one thing or another even if I don't agree. It's just a judgement call based on observation. A clinical diagnosis, if you will.

The term means 'of Christ' or 'follower of Christ' Right off the bat that cannot fit the vast number who lay claim to it. Maybe it meant something, and in general the idea was accurate, back when the Gentiles first coined the label at Antioch but today it's more a title than a spiritual reality. 

And maybe it's trust issues for me. These modern 'Christians' have abused me personally in the past and continue to do so. Even though I have much thicker skin now it's still a bit painful. I listen to sermons regularly and then check the pontificating against the scripture references given by the speaker. It's many times found to be lacking when all the relevant scripture is taken into account. Seems these politicos can talk for an hour and a half but can't take the time to regard at least 3 relevant scriptures about the topic and speak the whole truth.

So it's very difficult for me to see what is so 'follower of Christ' about some claiming the title of  Christian when the teachings do not align with scripture. So that is not 'follower of Christ' when the dogma supersedes the Way the Truth and the Life. This is the main reason I no longer trust in the word of man and gauge everything that is said through a quick study of scripture.

I have a good friend of many years who is a pastor in the AOG. He teaches the tithe to the congregation. This is incorrect in light of NT teaching on giving. The tithe is of compulsion and not willingness on the part of the individual. I have brought it up more than once and the conversation just ends. Pity.

So whose fault is this condition in which we find the 'Christians'? The leaders for their demagoguery? The congregants for their laziness? The evil and desperately wicked heart of mankind? We have fallen very far from Christ. 

I can certainly appreciate your honesty.  I have often said that many who call themselves Christians do more harm to the cause of Christianity than they do good.  One of the biggest problems we face today in convincing people of the need to be saved is the damage that has been done by immature children of God, and of course, those that are tares.  I have experienced some really hurtful things myself Diaste, and it really should not surprise us, seeing what humanity did to Jesus.  And, I've had somewhat to learn myself.  Just a humble admission.  I would like to encourage you (and all that are a part of the Forum Family) to be an example of what you think a Christian should be.  That's what I try to do.

On 10/4/2020 at 7:27 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

If I have understood your position over the months, I have several lingering questions, like this one:  If the event of the rapture does not occur until the event of Christ's Second Advent, and if it is at this time that "those who are alive and remain" will escape, from what will those who are finally escaping escape---the Battle of Armageddon?

This seems like a mix of ideas. I guess you'd have to clarify "those who are alive and remain, escape". I don't think I can see this:

"So keep watch at all times, and pray that you may have the strength to escape all that is about to happen and to stand before the Son of Man."

And this:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

as either equivalent in time, space, effect, cause or outcome. Maybe they are and I'm just missing it but I don't think so. The escape in Luke is not associated with the coming of the Lord where those 'who are alive and remain' is in 1 Thess 4.

Let's just go with the word escape.  Do you think that there is going to be an escape?  And if so, who do you see as escaping, from what do you see them escaping, and when do you see this as occurring?

On 10/4/2020 at 7:27 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Or this one:  Is the 1st Vial (or the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th Vials) of God's wrath poured out before Christ's Second Advent---before the escape of "those who are alive and remain"?

I think previous statements I have made answer this. But no, they would not be poured out before the 2nd Coming but are a consequence of the Lord's return.

I'm not recalling your previous statements.  But, I'm thinking that whatever they were, I can't figure a way to make your position align with John's account.  If the first five vials are poured out as "a consequence of the Lord's return" ,  how can this be reconciled with what happens during the 6th Vial (esp. 16:14, 16)?  You did say in an earlier post that you see the vials as being "poured out in order."  I may be missing something that you have said related to this.  Have you got a chart somewhere in the forum that shows how you are seeing what you are saying?

On 10/4/2020 at 7:27 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

Or this one:  Do you think that the escape of "those who are alive and remain" and Christ's Second Advent, happens concurrent with the sounding of the 7th Trumpet?

The 'gathering' of those who are alive and remain and the Coming are near in time/space. The Lord obviously returns at the 6th seal. The only 'last trump' in all of scripture that is associated with the end of the age and the return of the Lord and the gathering of the elect is the 7th trump in Rev 11. The 6th seal and the 7th trump are connected in time/space and conditions/events. 

For me, your reply begs this question:  What do you make of the 7th Seal, and what happens after it is opened?

On 10/4/2020 at 7:27 AM, Diaste said:

Quote

To again state concisely what I see as harmonizing with Scripture, the rapture will happen at the opening of the 6th Seal.  We know that a trumpet will sound at this time because of what Jesus says in Matthew 24:31 and what Paul says in I Corinthians 15:52 and I Thessalonians 4:16.  We can safely deduce that this "Last Trump" or "Trump of God" is not the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11:15, for such a hypothesis would have the 7th Seal still unopened and the Seven Sealed Book (or even the 7th section if it be so) still sealed shut.  Further, because evidences abound that the first four seals were opened as early as the first century, and the 5th Seal relatively recently, this leaves the 6th Seal, which can be opened at any time.  These things, and much more, support the subject of this thread, which is The Imminence of Christ's Return for the Rapture of the Church.  For some basic scriptures and thoughts relating to this, I would encourage you (and all) to look once again at my opening post.

I think we can go back to the title here and not the reality. It is not the demand of scripture the trumps are born of the final seal; that's an old pretrib doctrine that really doesn't have a foundation.

From this, "When the Lamb opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets." the trumps as a result of the opening of the 7th seal is not warranted. That connection is not made akin to the many examples where a clear connection is made. But even in the language of Rev 8:1-2 the only connection is the silence in heaven as a result of the opening of the 7th seal.  Just because it's recorded that John 'And I saw..." does not carry the conclusion of, "7th seal therefore trumps". In this case correlation does not equal causation. What would the eschatological pundits of the world say if Rev 8 began "And I saw..." instead of "When the Lamb..."?

As examples obviously these are successive:

"Then the first angel sounded his trumpet,", "Then the second angel sounded his trumpet,", ""Then the third angel sounded his trumpet,", "Then the fourth angel sounded his trumpet,"

This sort of language does not appear in Rev 11:1-2. It seems to me the scripture clearly says silence follows the opening of the 7th seal, not mentioning trumps ergo; the silence is the result of the 7th seal here, not trumps.

Rev 11:15-19 also disputes the idea the trumps are born of the 7th seal since wrath has come at both the 6th seal and the 7th trump. As does Joel 1 where we see the coexistence of the effects of the 1st trump and the A of D. This would be before, or at the same time as the 5th seal.

So, what is the weight of your statement, "that's an old pretrib doctrine that really doesn't have a foundation"?  If one doesn't know anything about any view, there is plenty of foundation for the understanding that what is contained within the covers of the Seven Sealed Book cannot commence until the 7th Seal is opened.  If you have a treasure chest with seven locks on it, you don't get to put your hands on the treasure until the last lock is removed.  Similarly, the seven trumpets are not put into the hands of the seven angels until the 7th Seal is removed.  So very simple, logical, chronological, and scriptural.  And even foundational.  Just because the word wrath is spoken by those left behind at the opening of the 6th Seal and from the perspective of those in Heaven at the opening of the 7th Trumpet, this doesn't mean that the 7th Trumpet belongs with the 6th Seal.  Just because one side of a puzzle piece fits with one side of another puzzle piece, the pieces don't go together unless all the other pieces fit as well.

I think of the Titanic.  When that iceberg ripped the hull, I can imagine those in the lower cavities thinking that the day of God (who "couldn't even sink the ship") had come.  When others began to find out, I can imagine them thinking similarly, perhaps even saying it to someone.  And later, when the captain found out, I can see him thinking it.  And later, when those in the lifeboats saw it break in two like a toothpick, I can see them thinking it afresh.  And for those on the Carpathia, when they finally arrived at the scene, I can see them thinking similarly.  And much later, for those hoping to find family members among the survivors when the Carpathia docked, the same holds true.  For the Titanic, the day of God had come.  Just a little sidebar:  I have often thought that it was God's hands that broke that ship in the middle---like a toothpick.  Nothing for Him.

On the day that the 6th Seal is opened, those left behind will rightly say, "For the great day of His wrath is come" (Rev. 6:17).  And much later, when the 7th Trumpet is sounded, the "four and twenty elders" (Rev. 11:17) will rightly say, "Thy wrath is come" (Rev. 11:18).  And, if such was said a dozen times in the course of what happens after the 6th Seal is opened, it would be a fitting statement, IMHO.  Rhetoric?  To me, it's just the Word, ably illustrated.  Have you got an illustration for what you are seeing?  Maybe that would be of a help to me.

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 10/4/2020 at 3:59 PM, JoeCanada said:

On 7/4/2020 at 9:59 PM, not an echo said:

 

1   But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

  2   FOR YOURSELVES KNOW PERFECTLY that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

  3   For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape.

  4   BUT YE, BRETHREN, are not in darkness, that that day should OVERTAKE YOU as a thief.

 

Hi not an echo,

I've read the last couple of pages.....and now I have once again read your OP.

This caught my eye.....

" For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;  and they shall not escape."

Who are the "THEY"?.....Are "THEY" the Jews, the unsaved Jews? 

If this is the case, then when did they ever say "Peace and safety". It wouldn't have been in the 1st century, since they were always looking over their shoulder. And after the destruction of the temple and their disbanding to other nations......Israel was no more. Not until 1948. 

So the question obviously is...... If there has not yet been a time when "they shall say Peace and safety"......then Christ's coming could not ever be imminent until this proclamation is met.

What do you think?

Hello Joe,

If I'm understanding you, what I see concerning Paul's words, "For when they shall say, Peace and safety;  then sudden destruction cometh upon them" (I Thess. 5:3) is reflective of the world's mentality right now.  What do I mean?  The world is not giving much regard to any pending judgment and wrath of God.  Everyone (relatively speaking) is just riding his or her wave of worldliness.

Like the world of Noah's day, they were going about their day to day wicked ways without any regard for any pending judgment of God---just like today.  Though the world was "filled with violence" (Gen. 6:11), in their collective minds, there was no coming judgment and wrath of God.  All was peace and safety---till it wasn't.

With all that we have been through this year, the mentality of the world around us is essentially, "Let's have another party or do our own thing anyway."  I'm convinced that there is nothing that is going to happen that is going to shake our world into turning to God.  So, I submit that the present mentality of the world, and especially our so-called "Christian nation" is "peace and safety."  If a war breaks out today, there will still be plenty of hot wings and pitchers of beer for everyone tonight.  If there's another hurricane in the gulf next weekend, there will still be parties galore everywhere else---and a lot of other stuff.  That's where our world is.  But one day, the bottom is going to drop out of things the world over.  And, it could happen at any time, even before I push Submit Repl...

Do you see what I mean Joe?  In my thinking, the alternative understanding would be to see the world having this "peace and safety" mentality during a time of world upheaval such as there has never been.  I can't see that.

Edited February 3, 2023 by not an echo

[WilliamL]

On 10/22/2020 at 4:10 PM, Uriah said:

The context of 1 Thes 5:9 is about whether we are alive or "asleep" when Jesus comes. What do you say about the great multitude of Christians in Rev 7?           

That is the raptured elect of the Church, "the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation." Rev. 7:14

[Uriah]

27 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

That is the raptured elect of the Church, "the ones coming out of the Great Tribulation." Rev. 7:14

Indeed! Yet pre tribbers teach that the rapture will come before it starts. So there would have two (at least) raptures...AND resurrections. Impossible.

Rev 20:4 shows people ready to reign for a thousand years after they had resisted the "mark". There is no reason to think that anything lese but that this went on until the END of the tribulation. So....... 

The mid trib and pre wrath rapture teachings would require the same, just pushed back to a slightly later date.

[WilliamL]

18 minutes ago, Uriah said:

Rev 20:4 shows people ready to reign for a thousand years after they had resisted the "mark". There is no reason to think that anything else but that this went on until the END of the tribulation. So....... 

There is plenty of reason to think that the tribulation is over long before the mark ever occurs. For example, the Beast ascends from the Abyss (Rev. 11:7 etc.), which is not even opened until the 5th Trumpet (9:1-2).

The tribulation is never mentioned after Rev. 7, only the Wrath. The Rev. 20 saints are those who will experience the Wrath, because they are not prepared to ascend when the Lord appears to take up His elect of the Church.